DocHollidaze

Confused about rationale 5.7 intro of NPC vendors

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1 hour ago, killerkat said:

There was already an intrinsic value to gold, it's what the "player" market was creating.  Just as any supply and demand, early on I saw ridiculous prices but now as I go around I see a more reasonable price.  Any NPC stops the player ran market.

As for undercutting.  It isn't going to work.  The majority of players are lazy, and are not going to log out, go to my ek, buy my mats, import them into the game/or craft them and then import, for a 1g difference.  And again, it's the game dictating the market value, so not a player run ecomomy.  And as I end up with way more whites than any other, I no longer have a way to generate income off of them, unless I want to drastically undercut and people think gold is a challenge to get then maybe they'll head to my vendor.  

The problem I see is ACE missed the fact that these resources are already available, it's just player base doesn't utilize what's already there.  And as Krakkensmacken noted availablity is a problem.  But I think that is mostly due to lack of a communciation.  If I saw a vedor and the weapon wasn't on there, I'd like to send a message to the vendor owner and request said item, but there is no way to do that either.

So an NPC problem solves many of these problems, but also creates more and takes away the "Player Ran" economy

Have you considered that part of the lack of items for sale is the fact that gold is only useful to run a vendor?

That's the bottom of the economy right now. For trade to happen at all someone has to want it specifically to pay vendor upkeep to.. make gold.

That is preventing a widespread desire FOR gold and in turn resulting in less people willing to trade items with intrinsic value for a currency with insufficient value backing it.

Backing gold with an item of value like white mats makes gold something with intrinsic value that does not fluctuate based upon how many shops are open and stocked, which in turn creates an incentive to open more shops to obtain it.

Because backing it with xp hasn't worked so good.

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2 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Have you considered that part of the lack of items for sale is the fact that gold is only useful to run a vendor?

 

Yes I've considered this.  

Since it's pre-alpha I totally understand.

I am looking at the end product of what selling whites does long term, considering that gold will have a value.

By selling whites, in campaign, the take away all reason to even keep whites and/or export them away from any player.  No one will want to take whites out to make anything if you can just buy them right on beach head/keep/fort/etc.

So 90% of my harvesting time is now wasted on a mat that is just as popular as slag/cobblestone/knotwood with a much higher risk, and very little in the way of useful mats.

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Or none of this matters because its a pre alpha meant for testing and they have not said anywhere that these vendors will be added to the final release (the Test Servers already had these vendors before and they havent stuck around in Live, and even coming to Live they wont be in the same capacity as they were on test) and any economy created now or any time before release means absolutely nothing anyways because everything will get wiped and set to square one at some point both when the game goes to full release and probably multiple times before it. 

allowing easier access to mats allows people, who have had a harder time testing the crafting features, an easier time testing those features which means more things get crafted in more scenarios so they can pinpoint glitches like that one glitch someone had when they crafted leather padding and it tried to give them a stack of 100 padding that they couldnt claim cause it would try and unstack if they tried to use the take button. If people are not mass crafting in different scenarios because they are limited by mats that are to much of a pain to get then less people are finding those particular bugs/glitches that might not arise each and every craft attempt, which means we get less and less information for problems that might arise from a bunch of smaller possible conflicts that might arise.

Putting more base mats into the economy gets more people testing the lower level of crafting and does absolutely nothing to the people who are harvesting/crafting/fighting for/over those higher ranked materials, because those people still have to go get their green+ mats from somewhere

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, killerkat said:

Yes I've considered this.  

Since it's pre-alpha I totally understand.

I am looking at the end product of what selling whites does long term, considering that gold will have a value.

By selling whites, in campaign, the take away all reason to even keep whites and/or export them away from any player.  No one will want to take whites out to make anything if you can just buy them right on beach head/keep/fort/etc.

So 90% of my harvesting time is now wasted on a mat that is just as popular as slag/cobblestone/knotwood with a much higher risk, and very little in the way of useful mats.

Nope.

You need whites to build parcels for your EK.  LOTS and LOTS of whites. You need to export those to get those.

You also need whites to fuel factories after you bootstrap a BP.  Factories in CW are going to be way riskier than in the EK's. Even if they have limited imports, getting the best possible imports for the new world race is going to be a EK centered thing.

Also, you need craft tables, and that means forts/keeps, which means if your without those, and you stocked up on white mats' your best bet is to export/craft/import as much as possible.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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No one is saying right now White mats on vendors at launch .... I have not seen that but hey maybe I missed it.

Right now its white mats are about Quality of Life as other tuning efforts are being created. I'll be avoiding them. I want to see the amount of time it takes to create full gear under the new recipe format.

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Anhrez said:

No one is saying right now White mats on vendors at launch .... I have not seen that but hey maybe I missed it.

Right now its white mats are about Quality of Life as other tuning efforts are being created. I'll be avoiding them. I want to see the amount of time it takes to create full gear under the new recipe format.

 

This. 

There is a basic hypothesis going around 

Quote

hypothesis: a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

That being.

Quote

The economy is stalling out due to a lack of low quality materials and the effort required to obtain them.

NPC vendors is a test of that hypothesis.  If the hypothesis is proven correct, that does not mean that NPC vendors are the best solution to the economy stall, only the tool used to identify low quality mats as a significant contributing factor for it.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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34 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Nope.

You need whites to build parcels for your EK.  LOTS and LOTS of whites. You need to export those to get those.

 

No you need grave, mulch, and something else... which is better to grind down and export those instead of the whites.  But even as we are doing this, I still have excess whites.  And at some point you aren't going to be buiilding those things, so will still have excess whites.

I see you keep justifying your stance, and cool.  But this is just my opinion on the matter.  And as I stated before I will hold final judgement until after I see the effects of it.  Maybe it changes maybe it doesn't.  

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, killerkat said:

No you need grave, mulch, and something else... which is better to grind down and export those instead of the whites.  But even as we are doing this, I still have excess whites.  And at some point you aren't going to be buiilding those things, so will still have excess whites.

I see you keep justifying your stance, and cool.  But this is just my opinion on the matter.  And as I stated before I will hold final judgement until after I see the effects of it.  Maybe it changes maybe it doesn't.  

All made from the grey/white materials.  You can't make those from cobble/knott/slag.  It's doesn't matter that it's more efficient slot wise which one your exporting, you still need a system that produces enough of them for that part of the economy to be viable. 

I seriously doubt your making gravel, mulch, and the other parcel components, because everyone has really nice test parcel pieces, the amounts needed are very large, and every item reset clears all crafted parcels. Some people several months back did some testing with them, but the fact is the demand just isn't there for player made parcels yet. 

The fact you say "as some point you aren't going to be building those things" tells me you may not understand what I am talking about. 

Parcels are the blocks of land you use to put things on in your EK. Like for example the farmland parcel. You combine smaller parcels into bigger parcels with Geomancy.  So as long as someone is trying to grow EK's without spending money for them, and since the really big parcels have been pulled from the shop entirely due to the high cost the original pledgers paid looking bad, there will be demand for more materials for someone to provide. 

gx0a5qZ.jpg

We know they have not even really examined the parcel material level production costs, so if they indeed do have a large surplus of whites,  upping the geomancy costs will create a greater sink for them.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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On 7/16/2018 at 2:03 PM, KrakkenSmacken said:

All made from the grey/white materials.  You can't make those from cobble/knott/slag.  It's doesn't matter that it's more efficient slot wise which one your exporting, you still need a system that produces enough of them for that part of the economy to be viable. 

I seriously doubt your making gravel, mulch, and the other parcel components, because everyone has really nice test parcel pieces, the amounts needed are very large, and every item reset clears all crafted parcels. Some people several months back did some testing with them, but the fact is the demand just isn't there for player made parcels yet. 

The fact you say "as some point you aren't going to be building those things" tells me you may not understand what I am talking about. 

Parcels are the blocks of land you use to put things on in your EK. Like for example the farmland parcel. You combine smaller parcels into bigger parcels with Geomancy.  So as long as someone is trying to grow EK's without spending money for them, and since the really big parcels have been pulled from the shop entirely due to the high cost the original pledgers paid looking bad, there will be demand for more materials for someone to provide. 

gx0a5qZ.jpg

We know they have not even really examined the parcel material level production costs, so if they indeed do have a large surplus of whites,  upping the geomancy costs will create a greater sink for them.

You obviously don't know the guild I'm in.  And again keep justifying your stance.  I don't care what others have done, you can doubt what we are doing all you want.  We are making mulch and other materials to upgrde parcels, we too have calculated and are working on it.  We know the cost as we too did the math.  But guess what, I still have excess mats, come check my vendor if you don't believe me.  Is it a process, hell yeah.  And btw I never said anything about cobble, knot, and slag.  I said grey and whites.  Yes believe it or not named mats come in grey other than slag, cobble, and knot.

And I know what parcels are, we've already made sever crypts, which I believe are parcels.  Glad you can flaunt your xl skills around.  Cause at some point you are not going to build parcels anymore, we already have WAY too many parcels to put in an EK.  We, at one point not anymore, had every square filled, and guess what, we still had parcels left over.  So once you get your ek where you want it, you aren't going to build anymore.  And if someone wants you to build one, you tell them to provide the mats, or you charge an exorbanent amout as they do take alot of mats and time.  So I know what I'm talking about, obviously you have no understanding of the game yourself as you believe you'll be making them forever.  good luck

 

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