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ACE_JackalBark

Pre-Alpha 5 Live! - Official Discussion Thread

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10 hours ago, thomasblair said:

While you may see it as a nother damn thing in the short term, it is absolutely necessary for me to start putting in progression elements as I think they are going to be at launch. Crafting at its core is RNG mitigated and enhanced by RPG progression. I intend to give the crafters as many progression elements as I can. (Because more content is always desired and creating positive loops between crafters is desired as well.) You may not like every single element added, (wait til you will want to wear a chicken hat, while holding a rolling pin, with a pet fox, while your group leader is a Stoneborn, chug your potion, all while at a crafting station at an advanced keep.)

The great part about Crowfall's stat system is we tend to put in multiple ways to reach a desired cap, and we are just getting started with some areas like crafting!

 

 

 

The Sapho potion still sounds like a clutch. Chugging them potions with a flat increase in pips doesn't seem like fun. Whereas an advanced crafting table built by a stonemason ( with its own exp lines ) that you can share with ppl in your EK or hide away in your closet, or something up that alley, that would sound like a more of a fun way to interconnect crafting professions.

Edited by shukin

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The base pip cap is 18. The stations in the keep give +2 to max pip cap and +1 to pips. The Sapho potion gives +4 to max pip cap.

How often will these potions actually be used? Crafters will need to get to at least 19 pips to make the potion worth using outside of keeps, and 20 pips in the keep.

Getting that many pips, assuming it is currently possible, will require maxed out training and extremely good jewelry and vessels with high quality additives. Maybe the crafting disciplines will add pips. It seems like they will have to, since we can get max pip cap to 24 (or more depending on racial caps). 

We also have to consider how many recipes there will actually be that will allow for that many pips. A metal bar maxes out at 20 with legendary resources. If you have 20 pips, you won't need the potion to make metal bars if you are crafting in the keep (or you have some other pip cap bonus). If you are crafting somewhere other than the keep and your max pip cap is 18, then using a potion to raise your cap so you can make the perfect metal bar and mass produce it would be worthwhile. How many metal bars can you make in 5 minutes? How many will you need to make before you get one that you want to mass produce?

These potions will only be used at the very highest levels of crafting. We aren't going to be using them for every craft. We also aren't going to be crafting by hand as much as we do now. 

Edited by Arkade

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1 hour ago, Nyamo said:

I am also favorable to the change (chicken hat please!) but 45 second may be just too tight. I think with 5 minutes you have all the time to make the craft without having to worry about the timer. But sure, let's see how it plays out.

If you were going to implement the lower time you would probably use the potion right before you experiment.


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I think that the issue with the 5 minute potions is not the added element of risk, but instead the annoyance of having to click 80-100 more times in a long crafting session. I don't spend 45 seconds to 5 minutes crafting, I spend more like 20 minutes to an hour minimum. Srathor, on the other hand, spends over two hours tinkering on the regular. That's a lot of potions that he has to make and a lot of bad space he has to make room for.

I definitely like that the quality of resources wold determine the timer on your potion.

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17 hours ago, thomasblair said:

I hope I didn't convey that all alchemy potions are going to 5 minutes, just the new Potion of Sapho is.

I just keep thinking about the post on Wildcrafting https://crowfall.com/en/news/articles/wildcrafting-hunting-and-gathering/ where the team at CF discussed managing minute-to-minute activity / second-to-second activity, etc ... this to me seem like a minute-to-minute activity in the wrong format. If I have to carry 5 potions then why not have the potion take 5X the mats and have it last 4X longer? what does the player gain in its current format?  it by default forces more inventory bloat, and we already are carrying an awful lot of parts to add together to craft.  Crafters by default are waddling loot pinatas and now add in the fact that the best tables will be in the campaign worlds and will be in places of risk this just seems to me like piling on instead of looking at quality of life effort.   

Jtodd's states "If you look at our game right now, most of our effort has been in the minute-to-minute loops, and it shows. "

feels like we need less of these not more 

To take on the risk of a 20/30 minute potion is actually more Pvp-ish then limping through 5/6 5 minutes pots. If i die I loose my buff ... just like if I die and lose my shorter buff and the killer gets some pots. The only real benefit is for the killer .... and why are we worrying about them when they can already loot all of the bars, squares, etc from my inventory? 

Edited by Anhrez

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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7 hours ago, shukin said:

The Sapho potion still sounds like a clutch. Chugging them potions with a flat increase in pips doesn't seem like fun. Whereas an advanced crafting table built by a stonemason ( with its own exp lines ) that you can share with ppl in your EK or hide away in your closet, or something up that alley, that would sound like a more of a fun way to interconnect crafting professions.

Depends on the materials used.

If it's one of the wildcrafting ingredients that is rare to find, that five minute buff may actually mean something special.  (Sorta agreeing with Tark on this, gasp), however.....

That supposes that it's

a.) Not something you run crates and crates of

b.) Gets you something, or pushes you up, in ways that makes it a bit special in regards to hitting the caps. (Like you needed 2 years of passive training OR this one time special potion).

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Depends on the materials used.

If it's one of the wildcrafting ingredients that is rare to find, that five minute buff may actually mean something special.  (Sorta agreeing with Tark on this, gasp), however.....

That supposes that it's

a.) Not something you run crates and crates of

b.) Gets you something, or pushes you up, in ways that makes it a bit special in regards to hitting the caps. (Like you needed 2 years of passive training OR this one time special potion).

 

I want to add on to this, actually.

I would posit that potions like these could in fact be the exact opposite of a crutch - they could be one of the ways by which a true master's craft is defined.

Remember that the ultimate goal way back when was for the number of pips available to exceed the number of pips it was possible to fill. The way I see it, a true master crafter with all of the available skill points allocated, decked out in top end crafting gear, working at a crafting table in a keep his guild fought to control, after using potions and food that grant him yet more additional buffs - only when all of these various pieces came together would he be able to crank out one or two absolutely batpoorly made socks crazy strong blueprints during the duration of the consumable buffs.

If potions that just grant you more pips for a short duration make it to live, I'd like to see them require valuable ingredients and be hard to create, or have the higher quality ones be substantially more difficult to craft and have correspondingly higher value. A potion of +1 pips could be useful for a new player, and a potion of +5 could be useful for a master.

So..why not two years of passive training OR this rare potion to get high-quality stuff

OR

two years of passive training AND this rare potion to get the ultra fanciest potato on the whole damn server? POR QUE NO LOS DOS?!

Edit: batpoorly made socks crazy is now a thing and you can't stop me.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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7 minutes ago, goose said:

I want to add on to this, actually.

I would posit that potions like these could in fact be the exact opposite of a crutch - they could be one of the ways by which a true master's craft is defined.

Remember that the ultimate goal way back when was for the number of pips available to exceed the number of pips it was possible to fill. The way I see it, a true master crafter with all of the available skill points allocated, decked out in top end crafting gear, working at a crafting table in a keep his guild fought to control, after using potions and food that grant him yet more additional buffs - only when all of these various pieces came together would he be able to crank out one or two absolutely batpoorly made socks crazy strong blueprints during the duration of the consumable buffs.

If potions that just grant you more pips for a short duration make it to live, I'd like to see them require valuable ingredients and be hard to create, or have the higher quality ones be substantially more difficult to craft and have correspondingly higher value. A potion of +1 pips could be useful for a new player, and a potion of +5 could be useful for a master.

So..why not two years of passive training OR this rare potion to get high-quality stuff

OR

two years of passive training AND this rare potion to get the ultra fanciest potato on the whole damn server? POR QUE NO LOS DOS?!

Edit: batpoorly made socks crazy is now a thing and you can't stop me.

Because of the mantra of "more than one way to reach the cap".

Unless there is some sort of "over cap", that only X can get you, by intent there needs to be several "OR's" in all the possible combination ways to the cap, not an AND.

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12 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Because of the mantra of "more than one way to reach the cap".

Unless there is some sort of "over cap", that only X can get you, by intent there needs to be several "OR's" in all the possible combination ways to the cap, not an AND.

I feel like we're talking past each other with this "cap" discussion.

The previous mantra, upon which my position was predicated, was that the cap wasn't reachable. Ever, by anyone. Ergo, there wouldn't ever be more than one way to reach the CAP, but there could potentially be more than one way to reach the closest possible number TO the cap.

However, even if every single one of those ways to "the cap" involved a potion, that wouldn't mean there weren't multiple paths to "the cap." That would be like saying that they're removing the concept of multiple paths by requiring the use of or attaching bonuses to crafting tables.

Has the idea that no crafter would ever be able to max out all of the available experimentation pips on a top-quality crafted item changed since I was active, or am I missing something else?

Edit: and just to be clear, there's no reason this couldn't be gated by in-game features - for example, crafting tables already increase the experimentation pip cap for gear crafted at them, right? So why not make less defensible and more desirable crafting tables that rotate quickly, or something in the wildcrafting system, or campaign victory awards, that allow the temporary production of higher-than-high-quality gear in small amounts, or make recipes that exceed normal available stat values not blueprintable?

If the core concept that the cap is unattainable has shifted since I was paying attention, that still doesn't necessarily preclude tools like this from being usable in a way that is helpful both to new players and old ones. You just have to stop thinking of them only as a crutch and find other potential ways to use them that don't unbalance the game.

Edited by goose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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8 hours ago, goose said:

I feel like we're talking past each other with this "cap" discussion.

The previous mantra, upon which my position was predicated, was that the cap wasn't reachable. Ever, by anyone. Ergo, there wouldn't ever be more than one way to reach the CAP, but there could potentially be more than one way to reach the closest possible number TO the cap.

However, even if every single one of those ways to "the cap" involved a potion, that wouldn't mean there weren't multiple paths to "the cap." That would be like saying that they're removing the concept of multiple paths by requiring the use of or attaching bonuses to crafting tables.

Has the idea that no crafter would ever be able to max out all of the available experimentation pips on a top-quality crafted item changed since I was active, or am I missing something else?

Edit: and just to be clear, there's no reason this couldn't be gated by in-game features - for example, crafting tables already increase the experimentation pip cap for gear crafted at them, right? So why not make less defensible and more desirable crafting tables that rotate quickly, or something in the wildcrafting system, or campaign victory awards, that allow the temporary production of higher-than-high-quality gear in small amounts, or make recipes that exceed normal available stat values not blueprintable?

If the core concept that the cap is unattainable has shifted since I was paying attention, that still doesn't necessarily preclude tools like this from being usable in a way that is helpful both to new players and old ones. You just have to stop thinking of them only as a crutch and find other potential ways to use them that don't unbalance the game.

I never understood it that way.

I always understood the limitation being that no crafter would ever be able to use all the potential pip slots in an high end item.

For example. if an item has three rows of 10 pips each, no player will ever be able to use all 30 slots, because the player cap was far lower than that. I don't think they know what it is for sure 100% yet, but I do think it will settle somewhere south of 20. (I think the current highest a player can reach is 15?)

 

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2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I never understood it that way.

I always understood the limitation being that no crafter would ever be able to use all the potential pip slots in an high end item.

For example. if an item has three rows of 10 pips each, no player will ever be able to use all 30 slots, because the player cap was far lower than that. I don't think they know what it is for sure 100% yet, but I do think it will settle somewhere south of 20. (I think the current highest a player can reach is 15?)

 

That is exactly what I said, yes.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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14 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I never understood it that way.

I always understood the limitation being that no crafter would ever be able to use all the potential pip slots in an high end item.

For example. if an item has three rows of 10 pips each, no player will ever be able to use all 30 slots, because the player cap was far lower than that. I don't think they know what it is for sure 100% yet, but I do think it will settle somewhere south of 20. (I think the current highest a player can reach is 15?)

 

15 is not currently the highest. I know Srathor has 16 on his blacksmith. I have 14 on mine and that's with only getting about 1 pip from 3 rings. Gradishar made a ring that has 1.6 pips. If I had 3 of those rings instead of the rings I currently have, I'd have 18 pips. I could get more from a better vessel too, so 20 is doable in the current game.

Blair said in the livestream that the cap is being set to 18, but that's the minimum cap. It can be raised. Some races may have a pip cap increase. We know the stations in the keep will increase the cap by 2. There may be disciplines that raise the cap. The Sapho potion will raise the cap by 4. We're looking at possibly having a max pip cap of 26 or more. 

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3 hours ago, Arkade said:

15 is not currently the highest. I know Srathor has 16 on his blacksmith. I have 14 on mine and that's with only getting about 1 pip from 3 rings. Gradishar made a ring that has 1.6 pips. If I had 3 of those rings instead of the rings I currently have, I'd have 18 pips. I could get more from a better vessel too, so 20 is doable in the current game.

Blair said in the livestream that the cap is being set to 18, but that's the minimum cap. It can be raised. Some races may have a pip cap increase. We know the stations in the keep will increase the cap by 2. There may be disciplines that raise the cap. The Sapho potion will raise the cap by 4. We're looking at possibly having a max pip cap of 26 or more. 

Yep. I have 18 pips on a blacksmith who doesn’t even have a vessel. 20 pips is within reach atm.


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@thomasblair

A little bit late to the party, but when I watched the stream the first time I didn't noticed it (english is not my native language), so sorry for this one week late question.

You said that there won't be Spirit Bank wipes in 5.7, but considering that:

  • changes to vessels (non only with the stats cap but also that they can't roll experimentation points
  • changes to jewelcrafting recipies (experimentation points cannot be a possible outcome anymore)
  • white items lowered from 6 to 5 pips

Don't you think that there will be in 5.7 many legacy items? I mean we are in pre-alpha an the game can be unbalanced, but don't you think this will give a crafting edge to all the players/guilds who stockpiled these legacy items in 5.6? In particular someone could craft now a vessel with exp point, save rings with exp point (all things that wont be possible to craft anymore) and just be ahead in the crafting curve in comparison to a player that didn't? And sice from patch 5.7 these items won't be craftable anymore wouldn't that be just a bad player experience?

Do not get me wrong, I do not care for being the top, nor I personally care if there are legacy items or not considering that there will be another wipe soon. But in Kittens I welcome new players everyday and I hear them complaining a lot. I just think that if a new players that join 5.7 want to be a crafter and do his best to be a crafter and then he realizes he is behind a legacy-items-wall... well that is not a good experience for the player that will probably just get disappointed.

I do not advocate a passive skill wipe, but I think a spirit bank wipe may be good to get rid of legacy items. (You are also wiping EK, right?)


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@thomasblair

On topic of legacy items again, I just had a conversation on Discord with @mandalore @Tark @Jah and few others. I do not want to bother you with details so i will get straight to the point.

Don't you think that leaving legacy items will just motivate players to stockpile them knowing that they won't be available anymore? Try to imagine someone making a spirit bank full of "punch drunk". I mean, if your "official" stance is to "allow" legacy items, players may just think that there is nothing wrong in stockpiling them and they may even find added value due to the psycological rule of "scarcity" (from Cialdini's persuasion theory).

Point is, wouldn't this hinder the very reason you are trying to remove them in the first place?

I think it is really a difficult decision. From a side you have to try to do your best old players do not get frustrated by another wipe (and i think there will probably be one in 5.8, right?), from the other, leaving them in the game will just give you false feedback on the new status of the game, since the data are contaminated by the usage of legacy items.

Sometimes I think I may just have to shut up, but at the same time I do not think that avoiding to talk about a problem is the best way to solve it. Now, assuming your final decision as a team is not to wipe and then allowing legacy items, as a human person, who is working hard to get a game done, what would you like us player to do? Keep using these legacy items? Or just avoid using them?

 


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6 minutes ago, Nyamo said:

@thomasblair

On topic of legacy items again, I just had a conversation on Discord with @mandalore @Tark @Jah and few others. I do not want to bother you with details so i will get straight to the point.

Don't you think that leaving legacy items will just motivate players to stockpile them knowing that they won't be available anymore? Try to imagine someone making a spirit bank full of "punch drunk". I mean, if your "official" stance is to "allow" legacy items, players may just think that there is nothing wrong in stockpiling them and they may even find added value due to the psycological rule of "scarcity" (from Cialdini's persuasion theory).

Point is, wouldn't this hinder the very reason you are trying to remove them in the first place?

I think it is really a difficult decision. From a side you have to try to do your best old players do not get frustrated by another wipe (and i think there will probably be one in 5.8, right?), from the other, leaving them in the game will just give you false feedback on the new status of the game, since the data are contaminated by the usage of legacy items.

Sometimes I think I may just have to shut up, but at the same time I do not think that avoiding to talk about a problem is the best way to solve it. Now, assuming your final decision as a team is not to wipe and then allowing legacy items, as a human person, who is working hard to get a game done, what would you like us player to do? Keep using these legacy items? Or just avoid using them?

 

Go ahead. Stockpile some jewelry. It'll take a lot of work and it won't have much impact.

I bet your stockpile of Punch Drunks will go poof though, because they are easier to selectively wipe. But even if they didn't, they wouldn't have a huge impact.

These things that are bothering you are small. It's still pre-alpha testing. All of this stuff will be wiped soon anyway. Try to keep your angst proportionate to the problem at hand.


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9 minutes ago, Jah said:

These things that are bothering you are small. It's still pre-alpha testing. All of this stuff will be wiped soon anyway. Try to keep your angst proportionate to the problem at hand.

I know these are really small, but still I do not get the rationale behind certain decisions. If all this stuff will be wiped soon anyway why don't wipe it again? and again? and again?

To me seems most of the decisions taken here are to avoid people who invest lot of time in to the game to get angry and upset (who will suffer most from a wipe? only players that have invested a lot of time in the game). As someone who is in direct touch with new players daily i feel that if we start slowly take directions towards them (new players will benefit way more of a wipe, cause they will not feel "behind" skill progression and "legacy" item barrier) it will benefit the community a lot more.

If we manage to get new players feel important as much as old ones we will probably have a more lively community, which will then turn into a larger word of mouth and positive feedback on external networks like other gaming communities/websites and such.

See, you think I am worrying of a small thing (some legacy items), while I am already planning 3-4 steps ahead. Sure, my predictions may be off, but I think devs need more support in the forum in the mean of a "new" player base more willing to take "risks" for "dicey" decisions.


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17 minutes ago, Nyamo said:

If all this stuff will be wiped soon anyway why don't wipe it again? and again? and again?

The more often there are wipes, the less people are willing to put in the level of "work" required to harvest and craft this stuff. Every time there are even rumors of a wipe the activity drops off substantially. Less activity means less testing. Its also means less player population, which means a more dead world, which even noobs don't enjoy.

Wipes are a fact of pre-alpha testing. But I don't think there should be a full wipe every time the item tables are changed. I support wipes that are a required part of building the game, and I support wipes when there are serious balance problems caused by changes. But I think wipes should be done in moderation when possible. And I don't think the changes from 5.6 to 5.7 rise to the level of requiring a wipe.


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Who the poorly made sockse cares about winning or losing in prealpha.  This isn’t the game.  This doesn’t matter.  What perceived advantage do you think there is?

 

Also, please wipe or please don’t.  It’s irrelevant to basically everybody.  Wipes are part of the testing environment.  It’s goig to happen 

 

You’re going to quickly burn out if you keep trying to play an unfinished game. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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54 minutes ago, Jah said:

The more often there are wipes, the less people are willing to put in the level of "work" required to harvest and craft this stuff. Every time there are even rumors of a wipe the activity drops off substantially. Less activity means less testing. Its also means less player population, which means a more dead world, which even noobs don't enjoy.

Wipes are a fact of pre-alpha testing. But I don't think there should be a full wipe every time the item tables are changed. I support wipes that are a required part of building the game, and I support wipes when there are serious balance problems caused by changes. But I think wipes should be done in moderation when possible. And I don't think the changes from 5.6 to 5.7 rise to the level of requiring a wipe.

Thank you for your feedback.

49 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Who the poorly made sockse cares about winning or losing in prealpha.  This isn’t the game.  This doesn’t matter.  What perceived advantage do you think there is?

 

Also, please wipe or please don’t.  It’s irrelevant to basically everybody.  Wipes are part of the testing environment.  It’s goig to happen 

 

You’re going to quickly burn out if you keep trying to play an unfinished game. 

Thank you as well.


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