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Say No to Shadowbane Style Mines


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3 minutes ago, Arcadi said:

I do not think that is true because I only joined the thread after seeing Nyamo's comments in my feed.  I get that you don't like me though.  Loud and clear.

22 hours ago, Arcadi said:

Yeah, prime time siege means I can't play.  Period.  I can't forsee being able to play prime time any time in the near future.  I can play almost 12 hours a day, but just that can NEVER be between 8pm and Midnight EST.

22 hours ago, Arcadi said:

I've always been confused by this type of thing.  Like don't 9 to 5ers have enough?  Can't they go to happy hours and evening events and play golf or hang out at the country club and whatever.  If MMOs aren't for people with weird schedules and night shifters and 4 on 3 offers and truck drivers and disabled and such, what are?

 

 

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Getting back on track, I can't stress enough that hitting rocks for hours isn't how I want to spend my game time, and that seems to be necessary for supplying crafters with what they need to keep ever

Ok, I stopped reading this thread around page 8 (and didn't read each post meticulously), so forgive me for addressing the elephant in the room if it's already been addressed...   Nyamo, do

First, I like the idea. But, the key to PvP health is variety, in my opinion. This should be in, SB style mines should be in, 24-hour active mines that cannot be captured should be in, hot spots

1 minute ago, Arcadi said:

I don't see why you need to say that I freaked out and jumped to conclusions.  That's pretty rude.

So you want him to lie to you?

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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5 minutes ago, Arcadi said:

(1) From the time of the placement the defenders have 24 hours to select a bane time. (2) The defenders may select any time during the 24 hour window starting from 48 hours after placement, to 72 hours after placement

This ^^ is the best system for large asset sieges. It's controlled by the players, and defenders have the advantage in selecting the specific time (as it should be). This is not a system generated or enforced time.

There can still be other types of objectives that are capturable 24/7, like towers. Or the point of the topic, some type of capturable or PvP-focused resource spawn event.

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2 hours ago, Arcadi said:

Only the people who aren't locked out from being able to participate in them can make this argument.  Their rarity and importance only makes one want to participate in them more.  If they are so minor, why not make them automated, like matches in Football Manager or something.  We can all decide which resources and characters we will commit to the attack, which gear they will equip, asynchronously within a 24 hour window.  Then the computer automatically simulates the siege and gives us the result.  The main focus is all the PvP going on all over the world and this would only happen once a month or so, so that shouldn't bother anyone, right?  

Sieges will occur at a negotiated time agreed on by both parties. It literally allows you, and whatever guild you run with to siege at whatever time you want. I'm trying to understand what you don't like about this system. However, when you speak in hyperboles, and don't make a coherent statement it's hard to have a dialogue. 

 

4 minutes ago, Arcadi said:

 

 

I don't see why you need to say that I freaked out and jumped to conclusions.  That's pretty rude.

16 hours ago, Arcadi said:

Would those windows bother you if they were 10 AM PST to 2 PM PST?  Your responses have been very considerate, but what you are saying is this game should implement a system that prevents me from being able to play it.  And that's better than thinking about any other possible solution because it doesn't "bother" you.  It's hard not to take that personally.

 

I need to stop posting in this thread.  The more I think about it, the more emotional I become.  I did not consider even for a moment when buying into this MMO that, I, who have tons of free time, might not be able to play it.  If I can no longer play MMOs, I'm not sure what's left.  It's quite a depressing thought.  MMOs were the answer for what to do when all my friends are busy or when I couldn't sleep at night or when I had to travel for work and was hotel'd up all across the globe with none of my family or friends nearby.  To the extent that this is what I thought MMOs were for.  Their purpose.  A multiplayer persistent game you could any time and it was always there waiting for you.

I'm not sure if anyone else has played any of the Chinese buy2win games with their 6pm PVP events.  Really that's all I can think of right now.  They say if people miss important events they can pay money to catch up with their friends, but in reality people just don't play if a game revolves events that they can't participate in.  I'm just shocked.  This is really the best solution people can come up with?  I reread the comments in this thread and it just seems like a personal attack on me.  It's inconvenient for me to let you play.  Letting people like you play would require too much work trying to figure out a fair system.  We don't need people like you.  You have nothing to contribute here.  I can't take it anymore.  They'll make whatever game they want.  I'll play it or I won't.  I hope they let the players they are excluding from their game get a refund.  It's like IP blocking Russia or China after their players already purchased copies of the game.

I'm done in this thread.  I've said my peace.  I hope your job never asks you to switch to weekend shifts or sends you to a foreign country for a couple years or you have to work night shifts while traveling.  Because then all your investment in your game will be lost.  Enjoy it while you can.  I suppose I should be grateful to get to see that before investing more than the initial $150.

Edited by Zatch
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5 minutes ago, Arcadi said:

I don't see why you need to say that I freaked out and jumped to conclusions.  That's pretty rude.

I didn't say you freaked out, those are your words, accurate though they may be.

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Just now, Zatch said:

 

Sieges will occur at a negotiated time agreed on by both parties. It literally allows you, and whatever guild you run with to siege at whatever time you want. I'm trying to understand what you don't like about this system. However, when you speak in hyperboles, and don't make a coherent statement it's hard to have a dialogue. 

 

The thread was about prime time sieges, before I joined it.  The post immediately before mine talked about prime time sieges.  That's why I entered the thread.  Because I don't like prime time sieges.  What is confusing about this?

The system that Jah linked to me from the SB emu wiki looks fine.  I like that system.  I have no issue with it.

I still don't like prime time sieges.

Does that make sense?

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Just now, Jah said:

I didn't say you freaked out, those are your words, accurate though they may be.

You said upset, it's just boring to use the exact same words.  I haven't said anything negative about you.

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2 minutes ago, Arcadi said:

The thread was about prime time sieges, before I joined it.  The post immediately before mine talked about prime time sieges.  That's why I entered the thread.  Because I don't like prime time sieges.  What is confusing about this?

The system that Jah linked to me from the SB emu wiki looks fine.  I like that system.  I have no issue with it.

I still don't like prime time sieges.

Does that make sense?

"Say No to Shadowbane Style Mines" is the title of this thread. Mines/POIs are not keep sieges. They are two separate events, and will have different mechanics.

 

As much as I would like to have a discussion on POI mechanics it seems it is impossible. 

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1 minute ago, Zatch said:

"Say No to Shadowbane Style Mines" is the title of this thread. Mines/POIs are not keep sieges. They are two separate events, and will have different mechanics.

Prime time sieges were being discussed in the the thread before I joined.

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It would be nice to see ACE take this feedback and implement a hybrid system / rule set that may not give everyone exactly what they want but would satisfy both viewpoints and a wide player base a whole. 

I love the idea of being able to attack player owned assets at anytime, But hate the fact that this will lead to "cheese" tactics for some guilds by initiating a siege when the defending guild may have little to no player base to defend. 

For instance a siege system consisting of different types or tiers of sieges, with varying risks and rewards for the defending and attacking guilds. As an example off the top off my head.

  • Tier 1 Siege - can be initiated on any player owned asset at any time on certain days (Mon/Wed/Fri or Tue/Thur/Sat or something along those lines). A "tier 1siege" would not give the victor control of the player owned asset but would be another means of acquiring resources by raiding the opposing guilds "supply cache". Damage to the Defending guilds assets would be limited to a few walls & buildings as to not have a huge negative impact on the defending guild if the raid were to occur at an inopportune time but also have a strategic advantage of making a guild waste resources on rebuilding their asset. Maybe even go as far as to let the defending guild choose which walls or buildings can or cannot be destroyed, but limit this function to allow for multiple avenues of attack. This siege or raid would have the easiest victory conditions but also provide the least amount of resources to the victor (maybe 5-10% of the resources available in the cache and limited to white and green quality) . I think there should be a cool down on all siege attempts before the next one can be made, providing a window of protection for the guild who currently owns the asset to rebuild and prepare for the next attack, maybe for a tier 1 siege the CD might be 48 hours and the attacking guild would receive a 72 hour debuff before they can initiate the next siege on the same player owned asset to ensure that guilds can't siege themselves to just acquire the window of protection . This siege should only last maybe 30 minutes and all respected victory objectives would be able to be completed within that time frame. (this is more of a raid than a siege)
  • Tier 2 Siege - Would be more restricted on the time/days, maybe limited to Fri,Sat,Sun and allowed to be initiated within lets say a 16 hour time frame (06:00 - 22:00 of whatever timezone the servers is based in). This "Tier 2 Siege" would also not transition the ownership of the asset to the victorious guild but would provide for an increased amount of destruction of the player owned asset plus increased rewards through resources by allowing the attacking guild to loot a larger % of the defending guilds supply cache (Maybe 15-25% of the resources available and capped at not being able to acquire anything higher than blue quality). Tier 2 would cause the defending guild to receive lets say 72-96 hours of protection to re-build and the attacking guild would receive a 72 hour debuff to ensure they cannot initiate another tier 2 siege against the same player owned asset until the following weekend. This siege would last 1 hour and would have more difficult victory objectives.
  • Tier 3 Siege - Tier 3 victors would claim ownership of the player owned asset or be able to reduce the city to rubble. All resources belong to the victor, and the victor would receive lets say a week or two of protection to be able to rebuild before the next siege can be initiated. A Mechanic that would have this large an impact on the power scale on a server I think must be treated in the most fair way possible and would consist of a hand shake between the attacking and defending guild with the attacker choosing the day and the defending choosing the time. Tier 3 sieges I don't think should last more than 2-3 hours.

 

I am new to crowfall so please forgive any mechanical oversights, just my thoughts on how ACE might be able to marry the two view points and provide an entertaining and rewarding environment for all.

 

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, miraluna said:

This ^^ is the best system for large asset sieges. It's controlled by the players, and defenders have the advantage in selecting the specific time (as it should be). This is not a system generated or enforced time.

There can still be other types of objectives that are capturable 24/7, like towers. Or the point of the topic, some type of capturable or PvP-focused resource spawn event.

I agree, I have no issue with this system.  Wish it would've been linked sooner, would've saved a whole lot of time and frustration in this thread.  I don't know why so many people were defending prime time siege windows when this game won't even have them!  I still disagree with their sentiments towards prime time siege windows, but the system mentioned:

Quote

(1) From the time of the placement the defenders have 24 hours to select a bane time. (2) The defenders may select any time during the 24 hour window starting from 48 hours after placement, to 72 hours after placement

+ defenders defeat the attacking banetree to end the siege is a great one.

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25 minutes ago, Arcadi said:

I don't get it?  What do you mean?  What did I miss?

That this whole thread seems to be based on a false assumption of what "shadowbane mines" would mean for the game, and subsequently how that would interact with the fort/keep capture mechanics.

We all have been beating on straw men pretty much this entire time.

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3 minutes ago, McTan said:

This thread is pure gold.

It's where happiness goes to die. 

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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1 hour ago, Arcadi said:

The thread was about prime time sieges, before I joined it.  The post immediately before mine talked about prime time sieges.  That's why I entered the thread.  Because I don't like prime time sieges.  What is confusing about that?

This thread was about mechanics for resource POI as alternatives to manually beating on rocks and trees before people vomited all over it for 8 pages. 

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5 minutes ago, Chroma said:

This thread was about mechanics for resource POI as alternatives to manually beating on rocks and trees before people vomited all over it for 8 pages. 

To be fair, the relationship to this being a resource POI issue, and a keep issue, got conflated in the first post.

Quote

Supplies arrive, a keep is built and the tools needed to process the material to be gathered are also created.

...

*It would require siege equipment to breach the walls of a keep. (meaning you'd have prioritize that material over other things on your caravan.)

And almost immediately (3rd post) after the whole thread headed towards "keep" discussion.

Quote

Outposts would be free capture. 2-5 players.
POI/Adventure Zones would generate materials on a timer, generating caravan pvp. 1-2 groups.
Forts would be nightly fights for 2-4 groups. 
Keeps would be weekly/bi-weekly fights, requiring a siege window, for 5-10+ groups.

And finally post 6 is where it totally lost the plot.

Quote

I have already said this in another thread i want 2AM forts fights and castle sieges.

So despite the title, this whole thread has been about siege mechanics.

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8 hours ago, Chroma said:

Nyamo, I really wish that you could experience those old SB days

Hello Chroma! Nice to meet you. I have seen you in a video Scipio posted on youtube. I'm sure you will have lot of fun with them. Scipoi an mjayed are skilled players. Please next time you mention leas euse "qute" or an atcual "mention" (with @) otherwise i may miss it!!
Also if you have a time machine I would likely jump back and experience these old days.

8 hours ago, Chroma said:

Your political game has already begun and I'm not sure you realize it.

I am fully aware of this. This ostracism and witch hunt you are seeing here it is mostly tied to the fact I lead a "zerg" guild of noobs. Which is one of the most un-horable thing you can do in a pvp game based on real honor and skill that has to be measured only in the battlefield, amirite?

8 hours ago, Chroma said:

Artificially limiting access to the campaign types are not necessary.

The very first reason i wrote here is not about "limiting"  access (which is what everyone want to do by making sure the "prime time" siege is the ONLY playable ruleset) but on the contrary is to ensure "accessibility" (by adding a different ruleset for people that doesn't like to have some of the content unaccessible due to restriction that they can't overcome for real life reason).

I think me and you are on the same boat here.

8 hours ago, Jababbo said:

Campaigns is what makes crowfall different and unique. The fact that you know what the rules and goals before you join can’t be understated. If enough people want siege fights to be fought only during a  predetermined  Time frame only those campaigns will have huge activity levels. 

  Instead of arguing what is the best or only rules to have campaigns to have. Why not talk about things that should be considered as rules?

Ah!!!! A fellow kitten coming to trying to bring common sense here. Jababbo, take care please, this place can be cancerous and seems like common sense is not very welcome here.

8 hours ago, Aurri said:

You are worried now that you have full time jobs that players just like you used to be will threaten your legacy of leetness and go crying to the devs to implement tools to penalize and handicap anyone who doesn't have the same lifestyle. 

Aurri!!!!! I have to admit I love to be polite on the forum but you passionate intervent made me smile. Thank you so much for your moral support. While we are still a minority more and more people are slowly showing up to express their support for a different ruleset. The majority of the haters are making way more noise than us, but I am confident that the devs are clever enough to get out of the thread the feedback they need regardless this has been shouted out loud or said wispering really low to the point it can't almost been heard. And a new ruleset is not hard to implement, so I am confident we will be good.

You would make a great Kitten!!! Your forums skill may be really helpful!!! I like your wit!! If you are looking for a guild which is zergy, noobish, but some some sort of magic highly organized and full of cat gifs you are welcome to join us.

 

4 hours ago, miraluna said:

This ^^ is the best system for large asset sieges. It's controlled by the players, and defenders have the advantage in selecting the specific time (as it should be). This is not a system generated or enforced time.

Miraluna, hello. While you are replying to Arcadi let me add that I am also favorable with a system in which defenders can choose and schedule the defence time... as long as it is possible to select it all over the 24h spawn of a day and not it to be limited to a certain hour range (like 15:00-23:00). If we are a night guild and we want to DEFEND at 3:00 it should be in our rights. Of course if we were to attack, then the defending guild is free to pick the time they want... in a 24h range that covers a whole day. As long as people are free to schedule the defence time in a window that is most suitable for them (and not for what is considered to be the 95% of the playerbase) I am fine with that.

 

Ok,  will avoid replying to players who I have already discussed yesterday since that is probably not going to add anything new to the discussion and will just make this thread longer and harder to consult. And we have been way off topic. But thanks god @tsp_maj seems to love brainstorming... speakiging of that I owe you some apologizes for having contributed to derail this thread very far away from the original topic you posted for. Sorry, things just got out of control and I never posted with the intent of disrupting your thread.

 

 

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I am asking Moriko to drop by and say something as well.

This is an extract of a conversation we had in Discord. As you can see not everyone read/care of the forums and people that have night shifts or simply don't want to be excluded from sieges are way more than you try to pretend they are. Just because you do not see them here it doesn't mean they aren't out there.

hwv0qyja45h8n9yb4v9zvn1y8rypxjly.jpeg

 

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