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Lets Talk About Runegates


Scree
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Based on the livestream today, we were looped into some of the current mechanics and systems governing Runegates. Heres what we know;

  • Crowfall campaigns are broken up into "islands" (unique procedurally generated map) which are connected to one another via runegates
  • Campaigns could potentially have 25 or more "islands"
  • Runesgates can lead to multiple worlds; one departure gate -> many destinations
  • Destinations upon arriving are chosen randomly for your group (groups stick together but not armies)
  • Players were then randomly distributed on the map to increase chances of survival
  • Runegates leading to multiple worlds was a design choice attributed to the physical size of the temple structure making having too many of them causing the maps to feel overcrowded
  • A new "cluster" map system will come online soon to help players navigate the campaign islands/runegate network
  • Death fog was turned on to provide cover for arriving players. Todd wants combat to occur during departures, not arrivals (pipe dream imo)

Of course, all of this is subject to change but I see some glaring issues with this. Chiefly, of course, is that navigating the runegates as proposed would be a huge headache for a force of any size. Assuming a gate is connected to 5 different portals, and there are 20 islands to navigate across. You'd spend a good hour, with plenty of warning for your opponent to organize and/or intercept said fragmented army, to achieve any noteworthy progress. Basically, each of your respective groups might end up teleported to the wrong island, needing to backtrack (randomly mind you), to try to regroup and end up where you want to go. 

After re-watching the clips, destinations might not be random after all. Nor will you be split up randomly on arrival anymore with your party.

Ideally, I'd like to see gates function like;

  • Runegates can only lead to a specific world; one departure gate -> always lead to -> one destination gate.
  • Runegates should be made smaller, not requiring a temple structure. Just the gate themselves. 
  • When teleporting to a destination world, you are placed somewhere on the parcel, randomly, but teleported with your group. 
  • Players should eventually be able to, at great expense, create their own temporary runegates (1 hour?) via placeable structures. This could act as a means of cutting off enemy reinforcements or reverse-invading an opponents territory.
  • Runegates should be treated like a choke point, they are a great way to initiate PvP, and to some degree control portions of the geography in the game. 

edit: Destinations being randomly chosen was misinterpreted. Only the arrival spawn point upon arriving on an island was randomized and this was removed. Seemingly you'd be able to choose what island you are traveling to.

Edited by Scree
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20 minutes ago, Scree said:

Destinations are chosen randomly for your group (groups stick together but not armies)

What? Really? Guess I missed that part. Hope that isn't the case and if it is then it needs to change.

It should definitely work the way you described here:

21 minutes ago, Scree said:

Runegates can only lead to a specific world; one departure gate -> always lead to -> one destination gate.

 

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The only randomness in Runegate spawning right now is within the single parcel of your destination, and by the time we have multiple possible outlets the system should be in place that allows you to browse and select specific Runegates. There was no mention in the live stream of intending to make the choice of which Runegate to travel to a random chance selection.

Carry on with the rest :D 

P.S. Grr Winterblades 🦌

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I didn't hear any mention of a browseable runegate system. Also, how would you differentiate them? The maps/islands aren't named. How would you know which gate goes where?

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I think when he said that runegates would lead to multiple worlds he meant that you'd have a gate parcel or platform with multiple different "doorways" on them. Pressing F on the doorway way takes everyone who interacts with it to the same gate on the same world. The fact that there are multiple doorways on a gate means that each gate leads to multiple destinations.

Edited by soulein

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

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I'd rather armies / groups not get separated and spread out. Seems like a inconvenience just for inconvenience sake.  Eventually those armies will regroup and wreck face anyways.

Edited by Helix
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From someone who has seen them in action on 5.7, this whole "random" thing is being blown out of proportion.

There were l think 6 landing circles, within 50M each other, that a player could randomly pop onto when they traveled through the gate.

The gates are shaped like the temple, with three "doors" on them. In test at first the middle of the gate, away from the doors, was active. Then in the next revision there was only one active door that lead to the main area.

From that I gathered that, "Random" means one of six locations close to each other, and each "door" selects a specific destination.

There is plenty of room in the design for more doors on a gate than three.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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I'm going by what he said, which could be taken out of context or flat out wrongly interpreted. It wouldn't be the first time we'd be guilty of misunderstanding them. 

Todd said during the livestream that they wanted islands to be connected to lots of other islands. He called out the fact that he didn't want to have to place temples for each connection because "their would be too many temples and no room for anything else". That doesn't imply that one temple could connect to lots of other places, but rather he was planning on putting down temples for each connection.

With that said, I'll keep asking for the ACE team to put out a more clearly defined document detailing how Runegates work specifically. Even if it's under construction, it might help for us to catch some problems. 

He clearly indicated, however, @KrakkenSmacken that gates could lead to multiple places, but upon reviewing the segment (this link will fast forward you to relevant part... https://t.co/AdYBaWJHpG also keep watching because a question later he elaborates a bit more), It seems as if random destination might not be a thing? Not sure where I heard that.

Edited by Scree
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26 minutes ago, Scree said:

He clearly indicated, however, @KrakkenSmacken that gates could lead to multiple places, but upon reviewing the segment (this link will fast forward you to relevant part) https://t.co/AdYBaWJHpG also keep watching because a question later he elaborates a bit more. It seems as if random destination might not be a thing? Not sure where I heard that.

Thanks for the link, missed the twitch.

They can, depending on how you define "gate".  I defined it by the "large circle temple like thing with three doors".  If each "door" can go to a single place, so with three doors on a single "gate", each door could go to multiple places, be they different parcels on the same destination world, or different world at a specific destination.

On the receiving end of the destination in 5.7, there were I think 6 platforms that you could randomly be dropped onto, from the same source(door), at the same destination (order gate temple), that were very close to the temple (bottom of the hill it stood on).

I think the change would be that if you selected the "main world" door you would end up on one of the 6 (random) platforms, but if you selected the (plains of foo world) door, you would end up in on a random platform on that world. 

But I think a 1-1 (door-drop temple) relationship will exist.  I see no reason a gate can't have 12-16-24 doors on it, with 24 different "worlds" connected, getting two way traffic from each.

EDIT: RE Death fog and scatter.  I can see thinking those platforms were too far apart.  About 50M, that if a team decided to camp one platform, and you had 6 traveling through, you would be at least 50m from at most two members of your group when you popped in, and easy to gank. It did not sound like the scatter was hither and yon all over the world, just about the size of a baseball field in a single parcel. (He said parcel).

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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Yea I'm not sure which I'd prefer in terms of spawn-in's. EVE Online places you in a 360'degree arc around their jump gates, at a distance (typically 15km away if I remember correctly) away from the gate. To go back through to the other side, you had to burn back towards the gate to jump back to the other side. I kind of like that idea for here as well. You teleport through to the other side, but you are placed 100m-150m away from the gate so you cannot simply bounce back and forth between each side without some risk.

The idea of random placement on the other side is solid. I actually am not sure I'd prefer to have groups placed together or separated. There are upsides and downsides to both. I think @jtoddcoleman is right to worry about gate camps, but the solution is fairly simple. Don't have one entrance/exit to each map.  If there are 3-4 routes into a map, camping a gate isn't likely to yield much in terms of results. In fact, others could simply flank the gate campers.  Worrying about how the meta will evolve is admirable, I just think its far too early to consider it a tactic you don't want.

I've always wanted choke points in this game. The game is far too open for my tastes. Considering the supposedly strategic nature of Crowfall, I think it should be encouraged that they allow empires to establish defendable borders. Not sure why you'd want to stop that behavior. If you can defend your borders, surely you are doing something right that shouldn't be punished?

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1 minute ago, Scree said:

Yea I'm not sure which I'd prefer in terms of spawn-in's. EVE Online places you in a 360'degree arc around their jump gates, at a distance (typically 15km away if I remember correctly) away from the gate. To go back through to the other side, you had to burn back towards the gate to jump back to the other side. I kind of like that idea for here as well. You teleport through to the other side, but you are placed 100m-150m away from the gate so you cannot simply bounce back and forth between each side without some risk.

The idea of random placement on the other side is solid. I actually am not sure I'd prefer to have groups placed together or separated. There are upsides and downsides to both. I think @jtoddcoleman is right to worry about gate camps, but the solution is fairly simple. Don't have one entrance/exit to each map.  If there are 3-4 routes into a map, camping a gate isn't likely to yield much in terms of results. In fact, others could simply flank the gate campers.  Worrying about how the meta will evolve is admirable, I just think its far too early to consider it a tactic you don't want.

I've always wanted choke points in this game. The game is far too open for my tastes. Considering the supposedly strategic nature of Crowfall, I think it should be encouraged that they allow empires to establish defendable borders. Not sure why you'd want to stop that behavior. If you can defend your borders, surely you are doing something right that shouldn't be punished?

I would like to see a way to capture certain gates, and flip who controls them, and who can connect to them, and even create some sections/worlds that can be 100% blocked off by a group and be a permanent (as long as the CW exits), part of their owned territory. Or maybe a type of gate that is one way, and you have to capture the gate on the other side to get back.

It's not like campaigns are permanent, so temporary, per world entrenchment won't be as end of the world as permanent ownership would be in a game like EvE for example.

I am fairly certain some mechanic for gate changing will need to be established for player to join EK's to each other through these same gates, so the idea of flipping one in campaign should be possible.

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I would like to see a way to capture certain gates, and flip who controls them, and who can connect to them, and even create some sections/worlds that can be 100% blocked off by a group and be a permanent (as long as the CW exits), part of their owned territory. Or maybe a type of gate that is one way, and you have to capture the gate on the other side to get back.

It's not like campaigns are permanent, so temporary, per world entrenchment won't be as end of the world as permanent ownership would be in a game like EvE for example.

I am fairly certain some mechanic for gate changing will need to be established for player to join EK's to each other through these same gates, so the idea of flipping one in campaign should be possible.

I'd like to see player-crafted Gates as well!

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5 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

From someone who has seen them in action on 5.7, this whole "random" thing is being blown out of proportion.

There were l think 6 landing circles, within 50M each other, that a player could randomly pop onto when they traveled through the gate.

The gates are shaped like the temple, with three "doors" on them. In test at first the middle of the gate, away from the doors, was active. Then in the next revision there was only one active door that lead to the main area.

From that I gathered that, "Random" means one of six locations close to each other, and each "door" selects a specific destination.

There is plenty of room in the design for more doors on a gate than three.

 

God I hope so. That actually makes sense, since it makes it harder to camp the landing spot.

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The randomness just refers to where you spawn on the otherside of the connected runegate. If 5 people all go through the same gate, they'll spawn in 5 different locations around the same gate. That's it, that's all. It was meant to prevent camping, but clearly didn't. 

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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