Xhavier

Passive Skill Tree is Very Alarming!

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I've been following CrowFall since I've heard about it in the very beginning over three years now, feels like five. I used to be a huge shadow bane player and I've played nearly every mmo on the market. I feel like I have a decent cognitive ability to pick out and determine if some features that are poorly designed or underwhelming. Although I usually avoid social interaction and mostly keep to myself as a person and as a gamer I really feel the need to speak up about the current passive skill tree.

 

Point blank the current system is very underwhelming.

There are many controversial mechanics of it I can pick up and discuss on, but I'm not here to nitpick whats wrong and whats right. Neither am I here to send out my own agenda or vision.               I understand as a long time backer of many games that we as gamers all would like to see the game in somewhat of our own vision especially when it's in development. I'd just like to raise awareness on the subject and see how many others on the subject agree with me or feel this way.....

Other mechanics in the game I feel are innovative and spectacular. I feel like the dev team is holding the torch in many of these categories so to see the passive skill tree as it is, is quite frankly disappointing and I feel as if the dev team could definitely improve on this one.

Here are some keywords I would like to use to describe the current passive skill tree so my claims aren't completely baseless:

Boring, Linear, Static, Disappointing, Unimaginative, Indifferent, Outdated, Unavailing, Deficient.

 

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1 hour ago, Xhavier said:

I've been following CrowFall since I've heard about it in the very beginning over three years now, feels like five. I used to be a huge shadow bane player and I've played nearly every mmo on the market. I feel like I have a decent cognitive ability to pick out and determine if some features that are poorly designed or underwhelming. Although I usually avoid social interaction and mostly keep to myself as a person and as a gamer I really feel the need to speak up about the current passive skill tree.

 

Point blank the current system is very underwhelming.

There are many controversial mechanics of it I can pick up and discuss on, but I'm not here to nitpick whats wrong and whats right. Neither am I here to send out my own agenda or vision.               I understand as a long time backer of many games that we as gamers all would like to see the game in somewhat of our own vision especially when it's in development. I'd just like to raise awareness on the subject and see how many others on the subject agree with me or feel this way.....

Other mechanics in the game I feel are innovative and spectacular. I feel like the dev team is holding the torch in many of these categories so to see the passive skill tree as it is, is quite frankly disappointing and I feel as if the dev team could definitely improve on this one.

Here are some keywords I would like to use to describe the current passive skill tree so my claims aren't completely baseless:

Boring, Linear, Static, Disappointing, Unimaginative, Indifferent, Outdated, Unavailing, Deficient.

 

I would love to hear about the mechanics that are  innovative and spectacular!

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2 hours ago, Xhavier said:

I've been following CrowFall since I've heard about it in the very beginning over three years now, feels like five. I used to be a huge shadow bane player and I've played nearly every mmo on the market. I feel like I have a decent cognitive ability to pick out and determine if some features that are poorly designed or underwhelming. Although I usually avoid social interaction and mostly keep to myself as a person and as a gamer I really feel the need to speak up about the current passive skill tree.

 

Point blank the current system is very underwhelming.

There are many controversial mechanics of it I can pick up and discuss on, but I'm not here to nitpick whats wrong and whats right. Neither am I here to send out my own agenda or vision.               I understand as a long time backer of many games that we as gamers all would like to see the game in somewhat of our own vision especially when it's in development. I'd just like to raise awareness on the subject and see how many others on the subject agree with me or feel this way.....

Other mechanics in the game I feel are innovative and spectacular. I feel like the dev team is holding the torch in many of these categories so to see the passive skill tree as it is, is quite frankly disappointing and I feel as if the dev team could definitely improve on this one.

Here are some keywords I would like to use to describe the current passive skill tree so my claims aren't completely baseless:

Boring, Linear, Static, Disappointing, Unimaginative, Indifferent, Outdated, Unavailing, Deficient.

 

If you are leaving feedback for the skill tree explain why it's boring, linear static, etc. 

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2 hours ago, Xhavier said:

I used to be a huge shadow bane player and I've played nearly every mmo on the market.

Have you played EVE Online? How do you feel the passive training system in EVE compares to the passive training system in Crowfall?

What did you like about the Shadowbane system specifically that you aren't finding in CF? The passive skill training in CF is designed to give account-wide bonuses over time for specialization. Character building in CF is more focused on your race/class/discipline rune choices, and your equipped gear and vessel leveling.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, miraluna said:

What did you like about the Shadowbane system specifically that you aren't finding in CF? The passive skill training in CF is designed to give account-wide bonuses over time for specialization. Character building in CF is more focused on your race/class/discipline rune choices, and your equipped gear and vessel leveling.

I have played eve, even in eve the passive system seems a lot more flexible, dynamic, and progressive. Noting, that game is archaic you really start to understand the flaw and shortcomings in crowfalls current passive tree. 

Although I do understand crowfall has a deeper focus on character building through the use of  race/class/discipline  The current account wide bonuses through the passive tree are so linear and boring that the mechanic is nearly useless and actually becomes a nuisance rather then a benefit .

At it's current state you mention that it offers specialization but I believe it fails to deliver. The bonuses are to linear to offer any kind of specialization it is forced and closed off to any customization whatsoever. The requirements are to harsh for any progressive advancements and your paths are basically limited to two paths. It's restrictive and it's almost as basic as adding 1+1+1, etc. All the while it doesn't seem like there should be any reason or structure to the limiting restrictive path that it has laid out to you . 4 pips for a single node to advance seems excessive? Required 75% skill tree completion makes any specialization pointless as once you finally completed the tree at 75% your tree will be nearly identical to any other character playing the same race/class as you.

Basically as of right now there is no point of the passive tree in the first place, you might as well have a race/class overall static % gain modifier  because it would nearly be the same thing that's setup right now with the click of a single button it would give people more time to enjoy the game.

The current system quite frankly is a false sense of choice.

It's to basic boring, and nonconstructive. It seems pointless and useless. With some minor tweaks and additions it's usefulness and enjoyment factors could be greatly enhanced........

 

All in all the mechanic feels like an empty shell and it's addition to the game is negligible 

as a backer and a follower for many years I would like to see additions and improvements to this function of the game.

Edited by Xhavier

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Yeah, some of us have been barking up this tree for a while. Mutually exclusive passive training branches that affect class powers would go a long way.

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3 hours ago, Xhavier said:

you might as well have a race/class overall static % gain modifier  because it would nearly be the same thing that's setup right now with the click of a single button it would give people more time to enjoy the game.

That is exactly what it does - it's a passive leveling system. Click a few buttons each time you login for baseline stat increases over time (this replaces the standard power progression you get in most MMOs for leveling). Then you can focus on playing the Throne War game, instead of doing repetitive mob-killing to XP grind from level 1 to the cap. 

Whatever you choose to train is your specialization - your baseline stats will be the best in that area. Then you can build a customized character on top of the baseline using race/class/vessel/discs/gear.

In general I like the system, however, I do agree that the trees are too linear. Having more alternate path choices between the nodes, and some nodes with fewer pips to advance would make it more fun.

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13 hours ago, Xhavier said:

I have played eve, even in eve the passive system seems a lot more flexible, dynamic, and progressive. Noting, that game is archaic you really start to understand the flaw and shortcomings in crowfalls current passive tree. 

Although I do understand crowfall has a deeper focus on character building through the use of  race/class/discipline  The current account wide bonuses through the passive tree are so linear and boring that the mechanic is nearly useless and actually becomes a nuisance rather then a benefit .

At it's current state you mention that it offers specialization but I believe it fails to deliver. The bonuses are to linear to offer any kind of specialization it is forced and closed off to any customization whatsoever. The requirements are to harsh for any progressive advancements and your paths are basically limited to two paths. It's restrictive and it's almost as basic as adding 1+1+1, etc. All the while it doesn't seem like there should be any reason or structure to the limiting restrictive path that it has laid out to you . 4 pips for a single node to advance seems excessive? Required 75% skill tree completion makes any specialization pointless as once you finally completed the tree at 75% your tree will be nearly identical to any other character playing the same race/class as you.

Basically as of right now there is no point of the passive tree in the first place, you might as well have a race/class overall static % gain modifier  because it would nearly be the same thing that's setup right now with the click of a single button it would give people more time to enjoy the game.

The current system quite frankly is a false sense of choice.

It's to basic boring, and nonconstructive. It seems pointless and useless. With some minor tweaks and additions it's usefulness and enjoyment factors could be greatly enhanced........

 

All in all the mechanic feels like an empty shell and it's addition to the game is negligible 

as a backer and a follower for many years I would like to see additions and improvements to this function of the game.

completely agree

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It's my gut feeling ACE is aware of this issue and will at some point make a move towards "Some type" of improvement before soft launch - I just can't envision ACE being OK with "This part" of character customization.

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The complaints about the passive skill training have been made numerous times, but short of a complete overhaul, I don’t see how they can effectively be addressed. It makes sense to me to accept that some sort of progression is necessary in skill development in order to make it possible to learn or develop more complex skills. No one starts off knowing how to repair a car without some basic understanding of the car’s systems and some time spent learning how those systems interact as well as time spent taking them apart and putting them together. While I think players would accept the idea of progression, they appear to reject gates as impediments, and pathing as overly restrictive.

One way to avoid pathing, gates and inability to specialize would be to build a system around effort rather than following a tree. In actuality, a tree structure might still exist, but it would not restrict a player’s choices as it does in the current system.  As an example, instead of having Int, or Sprint Speed, or Movement Control Intensity, etc. show up in several places, why not just put all the points necessary to be spent on any one of these items to master it in one basket, and let the player commit those points by how much effort he or she is willing to devote to it? 

If a player wants to devote 100% of his training effort to one major area (profession, race, or class), he should be able to do that. If he wants to split it 60-20-20, that should also be possible. As an example, a new player who doesn’t know anything about the game decides that he wants to run around and learn the map, fight some pve creatures and pick up some resources as he can. Maybe do some scouting to contribute to the campaign. He may decide that he needs some basic combat skills, some improvement to his sprinting and movement and stealth to provide some survivability. Right now, he would have to start at the first bubble of Combat and work his way through three complete trees to be able to train in his chosen weapon. That seems unnecessary. He should be able to begin training with his axe, sword or staff at the same time as he is training in things like Critical Hit Damage and Attack Control Intensity. Since Combat is within Profession and he wants to devote 60% of his total effort to Combat, he could then choose to put 30% into his weapon training and 15% each into Crit Damage and Attack. Likewise, since all movement related skill have been consolidated under Race, he would devote 20% of total effort to whichever of those skills he wanted, and if stealth skills are consolidated under Class, that’s where the final 20% would get broken up. This effort distribution would remain in place until changed by the player, or until he maxed out a particular skill area.

With the large number of skills found in the current trees, the choices available to the player would be myriad. It would be possible to very narrowly tailor a special purpose character who could be developed relatively quickly while a well-rounded character serving a different function or player desire would take decidedly longer. However, in both cases, the player would decide what skills were important and how quickly any given skill needed to be mastered. This kind of system accommodates, single craft crafters, harvesters, main siege tanks, solo players who want more self-sufficiency and guild players who may have more focused roles.

Even with a percentage of effort system, there is still progression in that the devs could structure the training payoff so that the farther toward a skill mastery you moved, the higher the reward. Now it is basically, earn a pip, get a reward point. There has been some discussion of including an active training component, and I tend to think that would be useful without generating a grind mentality. I would provide some benefit in terms of skill advancement for using a skill currently being trained. How much or how little would be up to the devs, but “practice” ought to count for something.

I can think of several ways to provide the graphical representation of the skills, and how percentage of effort is represented, but that’s the easy part. The numbers behind each skill development are all available as they were developed to put together the current trees, so much of the effort to overhaul skill training would not be new, but rather consolidating items currently distributed over several trees, deciding under which major heading they belonged and how the “rewards” for training advancement would be distributed. 

I would welcome further discussion and critique of this approach as I think the current system is not as flexible as it needs to be, and I’ve been trying to figure out a way to do it differently.

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Well at the current state of the game i would agree that the skill tree is really boring. But maybe thats because you got 10 pips every so and so seconds now its little bit different. I got everything i liked in like 1 or 2 weeks and then i started to train something different. in the end i had mastered like 3 crafting professions and could craft almost everything i needed for my character by myself. i think when they slow i down by 1/10 it will really start to matter which choises you make, so maybe its not so boring at all.

 

On the other hand some of the race and class nodes are kind of negliable cause it like gives you 5 points in one stat. And often that are stats you don`t really need for your specific setup e.g. why would i want to train intelligence on my knight character? But i am forced to do that in order to progress any further into the tree.

 

And the 3. thing is, not all trees are finished yet. Like i couldn`t train the final tree of classes i think, so i started to train all the basic clases which i actually don`t really need and at some point when they announced the new wipe i stopped loggin in cause i don`t see any sense anymore in spending time for this, when its all gone again sooner or later. But what i think would be interesting when they would add some special attaks or tactics you can only acces through training. Otherwise i would say investing  into harvesting and or crafting is just so much more usefull at the moment then anything else.

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I don't disagree, but I also don't see why the training system needs to be exciting and engaging.

The skill tree in Albion Online is not meant to be exciting or a minigame, neither is the one in Path of Exiles, or Eve Online.

It's just a custard training skill tree. The fun and exciting part of the game is suppose to be the active part you are actually playing with your vessels and fighting, etc.

If I'm going out on a date, the fun and exciting part is suppose to be the date itself and the sex afterward, not the picking out my clothes and brushing my teeth I do before I leave to pick her up. Those prep things are still required though.

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The main issue I have with the skill system is how linear the system is. If they changed it so you can train the skills you want out of a tree versus having to train in a specific order, I'd be happy. This would allow for specialized statistical builds while keeping the bulk of the current skill system.

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48 minutes ago, Zatch said:

The main issue I have with the skill system is how linear the system is. If they changed it so you can train the skills you want out of a tree versus having to train in a specific order, I'd be happy. This would allow for specialized statistical builds while keeping the bulk of the current skill system.

Care to elaborate on this. Give an example so I can understand. It sounds like you want to pick and choose any skill you want at any time. Is this true? Or am I missing the point?

jababbo 

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10 minutes ago, Jababbo said:

Care to elaborate on this. Give an example so I can understand. It sounds like you want to pick and choose any skill you want at any time. Is this true? Or am I missing the point?

jababbo 

I'd like to train whatever I want in a tree in any order (except the master node) I choose. The trees themselves should require a smaller percentage to move on the next. An example below

In the weapons tree there are armor penetration skill nodes that increase your armor pen by (I think) 3% If I want to build my character as a penetration specialist who has root duration decrease, but forgoes extra health, raw attack power, and armor I should be able to do that. In the current system you are forced to train 75% of the tree which equates to everyone having the same skill tree except one or two minor tweaks.

Training should be complementary to character customization.

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1 hour ago, DocHollidaze said:

The fun and exciting part of the game is suppose to be the active part you are actually playing with your vessels and fighting, etc.

Agreed. And character customization is largely done when you choose Race, Class, Major Disciplines, Weapon Discipline, Minor Disciplines, Weapons, Armor, and other gear.

I wonder why anyone who objects to passive training would want to put more of the game's character customization into the passive training system, rather than having it in the systems I listed above.

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