Xhavier

Passive Skill Tree is Very Alarming!

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, mandalore said:

1 seems even easier for them to balance and manage...

Yea it would be, but it wouldn't get you a per-campaign training option, and keep the whole persistent training forever model.

Not that they have ever said that per campaign training was even on the table specifically, but I do know they have some far out ideas like single death worlds, and worlds without magic, which are not exactly MMORPG models in the FAQ.

I guess they could go with keeping the number of campaigns running it at a time down to one, and lock the training to that world only.  

They could also go with a world with no training, and pack all the training skills into discipline sets so when you picked a major discipline,  you got basically all the skills from the training tree needed to perform that profession.  Basically build a discipline for each of the main profession branches.

They have some of the filtering tech in place, given the need for the leadership discipline to get at the leadership skills. What they could do is treat all players technically as having all skills trained, and then use that model to only let the equipped discipline skills through.

That would be another way to do it.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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9 hours ago, APE said:

We are supposed to train over months/years and end up with minor stat gains that a good set of gear will greatly overshadow?

Yes :D. "Flattened power curve" is needed to keep the PvP competitive, and this system makes crafting a primary role in gameplay.  The passive account level training is not intended to be the main focus of progression in CF, it's only one part. It is the part that is persistent and cumulative, so it can't hold the most power (or vets would be crushing noobs).

 

9 hours ago, APE said:

Allow us all to train Combat and one non-combat role. VIP allowing 1 more race/class and 1 more non-combat general.

This is related to what the VIP training benefits will be and hasn't been finalized yet. I do think it would be a good idea to give nonVIP 1 train at full speed + 1 train at half speed. And VIP the 2 trains at full speed.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, miraluna said:

Yes :D. "Flattened power curve" is needed to keep the PvP competitive, and this system makes crafting a primary role in gameplay.  The passive account level training is not intended to be the main focus of progression in CF, it's only one part. It is the part that is persistent and cumulative, so it can't hold the most power (or vets would be crushing noobs).

If they want to keep PVP competitive, why have a passive vertical stat system at all? Requires little to no skill or effort and simply rewards people for having older accounts and or the smallest clue on how to train down a linear path without screwing it up. Results in a power gap between new/old accounts, catch up mechanics (tomes don't solve the issue), along with more to balance and support.

I'd much rather have all aspects of a character/progression be in-game. While not a fan of Vessel/active leveling (wasn't passive supposed to remove the need?), at least it requires a bit of time/effort/skill. Gear/Vessel/Discipline and hopefully Advantages/Disadvantages could be more than enough.

While the power provided by passive training might not make up the majority, it will still be something. Add that to vets having easier access to higher quality gear and simply having more experience/knowledge of the game, the passive system isn't doing new players any favors, shallow or not.

With VIP and cash shop RMT, not sure CF will be what people think of when it comes to "competitive PVP."

Edited by APE

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Posted (edited)

I personally like the way that the passive training works in general terms. I know that a lot of the skill trees are objectively quite arbitrary advances to stats but there’s are some tangible benefits/choices in there as well. 

Crafters specifically will have to look ahead after basic training and see where they’d like to specialise because going down a certain path will unlocks more craftable items for you and (in practice if not in game mechanic) lock off other avenues (assuming you want to master one profession). 

I haven’t done that much research into the combat trees but I don’t think the higher end things give you any new abilities? (Please correct me if I’m wrong guys)

So it may be that the hardcore PvPers are more concerned with getting gear appropriate to their play style and equipping some disciples (after they stop being so lacklustre (sorry ACE they are a bit)) to help add some variety and utility to their build. 

Its not a BAD system. It may not be what you want 100% of the time but you can’t please everyone so you have to just make your best guess and roll the dice. Heavy is the head that wears the crown (and I think ACE have some pretty buff necks now haha).

It does help take some of the hated ‘grind’ gameplay away from PvP whinebags who like to complain so cant be all bad? 

Thanks,

Fabulex 

Edited by Fabulex

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On 8/6/2018 at 10:59 AM, Zatch said:

The main issue I have with the skill system is how linear the system is. If they changed it so you can train the skills you want out of a tree versus having to train in a specific order, I'd be happy. This would allow for specialized statistical builds while keeping the bulk of the current skill system.

I'm with zatch on this one

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4 hours ago, Fabulex said:

Crafters specifically will have to look ahead after basic training and see where they’d like to specialise because going down a certain path will unlocks more craftable items for you and (in practice if not in game mechanic) lock off other avenues (assuming you want to master one profession). 

A 2nd/3rd/4th/... account solves this.

4 hours ago, Fabulex said:

I haven’t done that much research into the combat trees but I don’t think the higher end things give you any new abilities? (Please correct me if I’m wrong guys)

No, it´s just more of the same of the same behind things you have to take even if you don´t want them.

4 hours ago, Fabulex said:

It does help take some of the hated ‘grind’ gameplay away from PvP whinebags who like to complain so cant be all bad?

Those skills are hidden in the exploration tree. And even if I went that route, it wouldn´t save me from the grind. Those skills just make the grind more rewarding. And please don´t start trashtalking just because you suck at PvP.

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16 hours ago, mandalore said:

How would that work with dozens of different cw's at varying legnths and types? 

One passive training per campaign. And to make it fair: Start it with campaign start and not when you enter the campaign. So you would have a different skillset for each campaign and everyone in the campaign has the same amount of skillpoints. The accumulation of points should be adjusted by campaign length: If hunger kills the campaign after 100 days, skillcap could be reached after 50 or 80 days.

EK could count as a private campaign with a veeeeeeryyyyy slooooooowwwww accumulation and only the passive training of your active campaign is relevant.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Fabulex said:

I personally like the way that the passive training works in general terms. I know that a lot of the skill trees are objectively quite arbitrary advances to stats but there’s are some tangible benefits/choices in there as well. 

Crafters specifically will have to look ahead after basic training and see where they’d like to specialise because going down a certain path will unlocks more craftable items for you and (in practice if not in game mechanic) lock off other avenues (assuming you want to master one profession). 

I haven’t done that much research into the combat trees but I don’t think the higher end things give you any new abilities? (Please correct me if I’m wrong guys)

So it may be that the hardcore PvPers are more concerned with getting gear appropriate to their play style and equipping some disciples (after they stop being so lacklustre (sorry ACE they are a bit)) to help add some variety and utility to their build. 

Its not a BAD system. It may not be what you want 100% of the time but you can’t please everyone so you have to just make your best guess and roll the dice. Heavy is the head that wears the crown (and I think ACE have some pretty buff necks now haha).

It does help take some of the hated ‘grind’ gameplay away from PvP whinebags who like to complain so cant be all bad? 

Thanks,

Fabulex 

You seem to be misinformed while deeming the inability to understand how the passive trees works fully to pass sound judgement.

You said quote:

"Crafters specifically will have to look ahead after basic training and see where they’d like to specialise because going down a certain path will unlocks more craftable items for you and (in practice if not in game mechanic) lock off other avenues (assuming you want to master one profession). "

This in particular is one of the major key points in the discussion, there are currently no limits to the current passive tree mechanic. Over time you will have the ability to master all crafts and abilities in the tree. There is no skill cap in the passive tree there is no specialization. Although this key point isn't the exact issue with the skill tree this is actually how it has been designed as it's use is not for specialization or building a character but more of a tool to give you passive buffs over time to your overall account.

With that being said the main issue and the key point I was hoping to point out is the lack of choice in the tree and the restriction placed on you.

If you currently look at most of the trees you usually have two linear paths that you can take. With any path you take you have to fill every single pip except the last one to move forward (4 pips) to move forward in the tree you have to fill 75% of the tree.

This is fundamentally flawed and rewards the most active players and limits new players  from catching up with the "grind" being time. If you'd like to move through the trees and capture certain nodes to help you specialize in the beginning so you can be good at what you do in relative time , you can't

This limits potential new players from learning new recipes, specializing heavily in combat, or harvesting to be able to catch up and participate. You will be handicap until you account ages with time or your ability to manage your tree frequently since passive tree experience gains cap out.

There are to many reasons why these tree just don't work. If you don't see the disadvantages to the current system then I applaud you but I can't ignore the red line.

 

Edited by Xhavier

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I feel they should make the ability to use certain disciplines unlocked via the skill tree, just have dead end points coming of sections of the skill tree that unlocks X disciplines should help add a little more excitement over woot i got 2 more str out of my 10 hours of passive skill gain

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15 minutes ago, Xhavier said:

You seem to be misinformed while deeming the inability to understand how the passive trees works fully to pass sound judgement.

You said quote:

"Crafters specifically will have to look ahead after basic training and see where they’d like to specialise because going down a certain path will unlocks more craftable items for you and (in practice if not in game mechanic) lock off other avenues (assuming you want to master one profession). "

This in particular is one of the major key points in the discussion, there are currently no limits to the current passive tree mechanic. Over time you will have the ability to master all crafts and abilities in the tree. There is no skill cap in the passive tree there is no specialization.

Nonsense. If I train up my Blacksmithing first, and you train other professions first, I will be more specialized in Blacksmithing than you for years. Time matters. How you spend your time is a real choice. The fact that after more than 10 years you could train all the Crafting professions doesn't mean the choice of which to train first in the early years doesn't matter.

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

Nonsense. If I train up my Blacksmithing first, and you train other professions first, I will be more specialized in Blacksmithing than you for years. Time matters. How you spend your time is a real choice. The fact that after more than 10 years you could train all the Crafting professions doesn't mean the choice of which to train first in the early years doesn't matter.

It currently doesn't take "years" especially for people that are active. In fact for someone that plays a lot and the fact that were soft launching supposedly by the end of the year all backers that are active with be a master in everything before the game even releases rofl

 

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1 hour ago, Xhavier said:

It currently doesn't take "years" especially for people that are active. In fact for someone that plays a lot and the fact that were soft launching supposedly by the end of the year all backers that are active with be a master in everything before the game even releases rofl

Everything you just said is wrong. Which makes it hilarious that you are saying things like this:

1 hour ago, Xhavier said:

You seem to be misinformed while deeming the inability to understand how the passive trees works fully to pass sound judgement.

You should probably spend some time learning more about Crowfall before you try to condescend to people who are better informed than you. 

Current training rates are accelerated for testing purposes. And even at the current rate it would still take years to train all professions.

They are not supposedly soft launching by the end of the year. They hope to launch sometime next year.

All training will be wiped at launch. Current backers will start fresh just like newcomers.

Rofl indeed.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, yianni said:
On 8/6/2018 at 7:59 AM, Zatch said:

The main issue I have with the skill system is how linear the system is. If they changed it so you can train the skills you want out of a tree versus having to train in a specific order, I'd be happy. This would allow for specialized statistical builds while keeping the bulk of the current skill system.

I'm with zatch on this one

That's the one aspect of the passive training I think most people agree on. Within a skill tree box, the training choices feel too linear. If the prereq to advance to the next tier is 50% or 75%, give us more freedom in how to fill out that %.

Edited by miraluna

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5 hours ago, Jah said:

You should probably spend some time learning more about Crowfall before you try to condescend to people who are better informed than you. 

Current training rates are accelerated for testing purposes. And even at the current rate it would still take years to train all professions.

They are not supposedly soft launching by the end of the year. They hope to launch sometime next year.

All training will be wiped at launch. Current backers will start fresh just like newcomers.

Rofl indeed.

Pann

  • Director of Community
  • Pann
  • ArtCraft Developer
  • team_admin.png.fc348a123eb217483024b3f3d
"Posted February 22 We're shooting for soft launch later this year. At this time, we're not able to give a definitive date since we need to see how each successive testing phase goes. I should also mention that we don't have plans for an open beta, but rather a free beta (again, later this year, time TBD). To participate, people need to register an account on our website. "
 
 
 
 
After soft launch there is said to be no wipe....
Devs said there was to be no promotions or advertisements during soft launch and I would imagine a lot of new players will be be added during  the official launch date  
Possibly months after soft launch.....
I understand current exp rates are inflated for testing purposes but I still don't understand how you think it would take years to flesh out the tree's.
I think you're being a little rambunctious but correct me if I'm wrong and I'll put my foot in my mouth. 
I ensure you I'm very informed and I'm not ranting like an idiot.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Xhavier said:

Pann

  • Director of Community
  • Pann
  • ArtCraft Developer
  • team_admin.png.fc348a123eb217483024b3f3d
"Posted February 22 We're shooting for soft launch later this year. At this time, we're not able to give a definitive date since we need to see how each successive testing phase goes. I should also mention that we don't have plans for an open beta, but rather a free beta (again, later this year, time TBD). To participate, people need to register an account on our website. "
 
 
 
 
After soft launch there is said to be no wipe....
Devs said there was to be no promotions or advertisements during soft launch and I would imagine a lot of new players will be be added during  the official launch date  
Possibly months after soft launch.....
I understand current exp rates are inflated for testing purposes but I still don't understand how you think it would take years to flesh out the tree's.
I think you're being a little rambunctious but correct me if I'm wrong and I'll put my foot in my mouth. 
I ensure you I'm very informed and I'm not ranting like an idiot.

 

Not as informed as you think.

https://crowfall.com/en/news/articles/founders-update-mid-year-check-point-2018/

 

Quote

hese changes aren’t free, however, so we should recognize that more changes to core systems means more time before launch. As a result, I think it’s clear that our soft launch is not going to happen by the end of the year.

I know this news is going to be disappointing to many of you, and we absolutely share that disappointment. For those of you who are jumping into the playtest every week (bless you!) this news probably won’t come as a surprise.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Xhavier said:

Pann

  • Director of Community
  • Pann
  • ArtCraft Developer
  • team_admin.png.fc348a123eb217483024b3f3d
"Posted February 22 We're shooting for soft launch later this year. At this time, we're not able to give a definitive date since we need to see how each successive testing phase goes. I should also mention that we don't have plans for an open beta, but rather a free beta (again, later this year, time TBD). To participate, people need to register an account on our website. "
 
 
 
 
After soft launch there is said to be no wipe....
Devs said there was to be no promotions or advertisements during soft launch and I would imagine a lot of new players will be be added during  the official launch date  
Possibly months after soft launch.....
I understand current exp rates are inflated for testing purposes but I still don't understand how you think it would take years to flesh out the tree's.
I think you're being a little rambunctious but correct me if I'm wrong and I'll put my foot in my mouth. 
I ensure you I'm very informed and I'm not ranting like an idiot

Did you just cherry pick some outdated info and not both to research it further?

DEV PARTNERS ASSEMBLE!    

Edited by mandalore

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5 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Did you just cherry pick some outdated info and not both to research it further?   

No I was just trying to find a source for my current knowledge. I apologise for posting outdated information

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Xhavier said:

No I was just trying to find a source for my current knowledge. I apologise for posting outdated information

It’s okay in times of great need the ace dev partners (and jah) come together to fight injustice and bad posts.  

Now about that foot in your mouth...pics?

Edited by mandalore

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