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Passive Skill Tree is Very Alarming!


Xhavier
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17 minutes ago, Shnoo said:

I´m sorry to hear that it was "bullsht grinding" for you. For me it was fun and the start of lots of 1 vs 1, x vs x or guild vs guild PvP encounters. Black Desert did almost everything right until they simplified the class mechanics over months in the live environment. ACE should have a look at that game, but I guess it´s not possible to compete with BDO´s budget.

It's np, all I had to do was stop playing and the problem was solved. Thankfully, ACE is not going with the same type of advancement model for CF, and are going with one that is closer to something like EVE Online.

I mean, I'm not surprised that unemployed scrublords show up here to complain about the CF model, I mean, they have nothing to do all day anyway. And grinding out catfish or whatever doesn't take much brainpower to limit multi-tasking.

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42 minutes ago, Xhavier said:

should be a further way to add to your character development not a "time based buff"

That seems to be a common misconception about the passive skill tree training, especially for people that played Shadowbane or Star Wars Galaxies with a skill point cap system.

In Crowfall, it's intended to be permanent leveling for your account (your crow). It rewards you for staying with the game longer by giving you some automatic power gains and more choices in role specializations over time. Eventually, after many years, you could train everything. It is not intended to be character differentiation, that is on the vessel/discs/gear systems.

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49 minutes ago, miraluna said:

That seems to be a common misconception about the passive skill tree training, especially for people that played Shadowbane or Star Wars Galaxies with a skill point cap system.

In Crowfall, it's intended to be permanent leveling for your account (your crow). It rewards you for staying with the game longer by giving you some automatic power gains and more choices in role specializations over time. Eventually, after many years, you could train everything. It is not intended to be character differentiation, that is on the vessel/discs/gear systems.

That is true only if they don't add or expand to the existing trees. My belief is that even after a few years, you won't be able to train everything since more trees, and more options will be added routinely post-launch.

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1 hour ago, Zatch said:

Disciplines do have different quality levels that change the stat advtange you get from them. Crafting discs is a central component of Crowfall gameplay. If you can switch disciplines without desturction it destroys an entire gameloop. 

Wasting time and worthless mats until you have that high quality discipline is not really a good gameloop. Yes, we need some darkness to value the light, but boring on creation and boring on usage doesn´t make a game fun. 

It would be a better loop if it was harder to make the best version and that would decay during usage. Going from harvesting to fighting to harvesting to fighting to harvesting and changing the disciplines each time? I stopped doing this during the first week.

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1 minute ago, Shnoo said:

Wasting time and worthless mats until you have that high quality discipline is not really a good gameloop. Yes, we need some darkness to value the light, but boring on creation and boring on usage doesn´t make a game fun. 

It would be a better loop if it was harder to make the best version and that would decay during usage. Going from harvesting to fighting to harvesting to fighting to harvesting and changing the disciplines each time? I stopped doing this during the first week.

The mats to create discs aren't going to be worthless, but will instead be thralls you actively find and capture in the world. 

You will change bodies at a crypt depending on the discs you want to use. It is not intended for you to switch out discs every 5 minutes depending on what you are doing. 

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7 minutes ago, Gradishar said:

That is true only if they don't add or expand to the existing trees. My belief is that even after a few years, you won't be able to train everything since more trees, and more options will be added routinely post-launch.

I agree this seems most likely.  As soon as the day-1 VIP accounts gets anywhere close they will cancel VIP and that's not what ArtCraft wants, I don't think.

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9 minutes ago, Shnoo said:

boring on creation and boring on usage doesn´t make a game fun. 

Where are you getting the idea that creating and using Disciplines will be boring?

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how about start everyone of with one fully specialized branch i.e blacksmithing with one exploration.

 

then do a completely different system i.e  wows talent tree....

 

mages could be frost / fire/ lightning

 

warriors. defense attack mitigation...

you know solve the nub / skill problem all in one fell swoop

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I feel like there is some misunderstanding about what the OP is referring to so I'll supply an example.
 
1EWJZJ5.png
 
If you review the above image the three points of complaint are clearly visible.
  • Purple Lines: If I want to just add some STR or SPI to my account I first HAVE to train the DEX.
  • Black Box: Why are there some random filler skills thrown in my way if all I am trying to do is add some more stats to my account?
  • Red Circle & Lines: You not only have to train everything connected to the final skill but you MUST train them ALL to MAX.
 
The fourth point of complaint is that you cannot unlock ABC tree until X% of the previous tree has been unlocked.
 
If I missed something please let me know but I agree with all of these complaints. If skills were grouped better and you had the freedom to just train the groups you are interested I think it would add a level of player customization. 
 
All of that said as a former Eve Online player the thing that I find most lacking from the skill tree is the feeling of anticipation/accomplishment that goes with skill planning. In Eve you map out the way to a goal: a new ship, module, or weapon that changes your gameplay and I don't get that feeling from these trees. I've only been playing like two months so maybe I just haven't found these types of skills yet.
 
Do any of you long term players find there are certain skills which make you feel this way?
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by Brevalear
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7 hours ago, Jah said:

Agreed. And character customization is largely done when you choose Race, Class, Major Disciplines, Weapon Discipline, Minor Disciplines, Weapons, Armor, and other gear.

I wonder why anyone who objects to passive training would want to put more of the game's character customization into the passive training system, rather than having it in the systems I listed above.

Can't we have it here, too? I am, in principle, in favor of character customization in all forms. I'm not sure what the current passive training system really adds to my experience, though some people seem to like it (or at least tolerate it--it's hard to tell). I've never lobbied for its erasure or replacement by active training, but I have asked for a passive training system that makes it possible for one knight to be different from another (on top of Race/Disciplines/Gear).

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The passive system is supposed to represent the leveling from 1-60 / xxx. Like a fairly static increase in power over time. There will be some catch up mechanics for folks who start late, with the tome system or something like it. 

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Let's be honest, some are vouching for this passive skill system simply because they are the pay-2-win type.

They will buy 2+ accounts when game launches to ensure they stay ahead in multiple professions

OR they are hustlers and buy 10 accounts and sell them pre-aged from day 1 for a profit. I'd imagine EVE players were doing that...

I just checked and there are numerous EVE accounts being sold online for $100+

Guess what the first attribute for sale is? Number of skill points.

So here's your awesome "passive skill system" on full display boys!

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21 minutes ago, McTan said:

Can't we have it here, too?

Why though? What about passive training makes it a good vehicle for character customization?

With Disciplines as a mechanism you can go out and hunt new Disciplines if you want to change your build. This puts people in the world, actively playing. It is within your power to get new Disciplines by hunting them, crafting them, stealing, or buying them.

With passive training as the mechanism for creating your build, all you do is decide what you want and then wait. And then what happens when you change your mind and want a different  build? More waiting, presuming that is even possible, since some people want mutually exclusive choices added to the training system.

If ACE is going to spend additional time adding additional customization to the game, is the passive training system really where you want them to put it?

Edited by Jah

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22 minutes ago, McTan said:

Can't we have it here, too? I am, in principle, in favor of character customization in all forms.

An account-wide permanent progression system was one of the core design concepts for the game. So I'm not sure how that would work if they turn the current system into character specific with exclusions. They would have to make a skill tree for each of the 6 character slots, and then some way to respec if you wanted a new character build. Instead, they are pushing that customization even more into the Vessel system (see the 5.7 cap modifiers https://i.imgur.com/tixz2FM.png).

The SWG skill tree system was my favorite (250 pts to spend in total across multiple trees), but they went with a different approach for CF as they had the goal of some persistent gains like EVE.

Edit: I will add that I do hope we get the Advantages/Disadvantages system at some point, as that was a fun aspect of character building from SB. Having more choices and ways to diversify builds is good, I'm just not sure the passive skill training is where it should be happening.

Edited by miraluna

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There IS a complete misunderstanding from this new batch of players as to the entire purpose of the passive tree... 

No, it will not make for specialization.
No, it will not be exciting or give a sense of accomplishment like leveling.

It is meant to be a background piece and nothing like actually playing the game which will have its own benefits and power gains.

What it does is give the same slow creep in power for your entire account regardless of your current build.   It will give short term advantages if your passive skills are coordinated with your vessel and gear build out but that advantage will completely disappear in time.  It also sets the unlocks for the various crafts so that the gear progression is regulated and dispersed over time...   basic-intermediate-advanced poor-common-uncommon-rare-epic-legendary.    These unlocks and the timing of them at 1 mo, 3 mo, 6 mo, (whatever speed is set at launch) are very important to give the game an MMO sense of progression and a slow buildup of player resource yield, gear quality (even quantity with factory/blueprint unlocks), and combat power.   It sets what you can efficiently harvest, what you can possible create, and gives a small fraction of your combat power gains.   Nothing more, nothing less.

IMO you should forget everything you misconceived about the passive tree being something that it was never meant to be and look at it as the background creep alone.  Everyone will eventually (years) get everything.

What is going to make you different from other players is all done in game...   vessels (character creation system update!), sacrifice choices, disciplines and gear represent 70% or more of your build and depend on activities like harvesting, capping, skirmish combat and sieges.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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46 minutes ago, Jah said:

Why though? What about passive training makes it a good vehicle for character customization?

With Disciplines as a mechanism you can go out and hunt new Disciplines if you want to change your build. This puts people in the world, actively playing. It is within your power to get new Disciplines by hunting them, crafting them, stealing, or buying them.

With passive training as the mechanism for creating your build, all you do is decide what you want and then wait. And then what happens when you change your mind and want a different  build? More waiting, presuming that is even possible, since some people want mutually exclusive choices added to the training system.

If ACE is going to spend additional time adding additional customization to the game, is the passive training system really where you want them to put it?

Because it offers us a type of customization (power alteration) that is not in the game. Additionally, anything that makes passive training a desirable mechanic is amplified the better the system is. It gives players who rely on passive training to keep up a chance to be different from the others who are keeping up only through passive training but wanting to play the same Race/Class. 

I do want mutually exclusive choices added to the system, it is superior, in my opinion, to pushing everyone through this system without significant differences (beyond choosing your Race/Class/Profession). Let me be clear that I would never advocate for this to replace Disciplines or to become the sole mechanism for creating a build. To argue as though I do is not persuasive.

46 minutes ago, miraluna said:

An account-wide permanent progression system was one of the core design concepts for the game. So I'm not sure how that would work if they turn the current system into character specific with exclusions. 

I am not arguing for character specific, it would still be account specific, simply with trees and branches that alter specific class powers, as opposed to overall class statistics.

The issue of changing and wanting a different build is already involved in the current system, though it would be exacerbated by this for certain.

I will say, I believe that the active-training vessel system is a better vehicle for achieving these goals, and would much more fervently advocate for that implementation, as it allows much quicker flavors to rise and fall.

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3 minutes ago, Frykka said:

There IS a complete misunderstanding from this new batch of players as to the entire purpose of the passive tree... 

No, it will not make for specialization.
No, it will not be exciting or give a sense of accomplishment like leveling.

It is meant to be a background piece and nothing like actually playing the game which will have its own benefits and power gains.

IMO you should forget everything you misconceived about the passive tree being something that it was never meant to be and look at it as the background creep alone.  Everyone will eventually (years) get everything.

I am not in the new batch, and I totally understand this post. But, your post is a very cogent statement for why the system should be reconsidered, in my opinion. It's a system players will be interacting with early and often, and like early harvesting, it is not compelling and will almost certainly be subject of many, many more threads of this type. There is a reason why several old hats roll their eyes and sigh, saying, "this again" - it keeps coming up as a fairly boring and frustrating system.

Edited by McTan
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1 hour ago, hectavex said:

Let's be honest, some are vouching for this passive skill system simply because they are the pay-2-win type.

They will buy 2+ accounts when game launches to ensure they stay ahead in multiple professions

OR they are hustlers and buy 10 accounts and sell them pre-aged from day 1 for a profit. I'd imagine EVE players were doing that...

I just checked and there are numerous EVE accounts being sold online for $100+

Guess what the first attribute for sale is? Number of skill points.

So here's your awesome "passive skill system" on full display boys!

Regardless of how many accounts that you have, you can only be doing ONE thing at a time as it takes active time to harvest/produce/or fight...   (other than a leadership bot in an EK or stronghold for crafting).   Every major guild playing will have all crafts and harvest types redundantly covered by separate players and backups with multiple accounts.  This is not P2W in any way, it is how guilds act In order to be top competitive in any mmo.  Multiple accounts or VIP in this environment will not make one iota of difference in who will win the Throne War...   These guilds will also rarely play in faction worlds anyway leaving them to the smaller guilds and solo players.

 

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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33 minutes ago, McTan said:

Because it offers us a type of customization (power alteration) that is not in the game.

I understand why you might want power alteration. But why put power alteration into the passive training system, instead of putting it somewhere else, like Disciplines or Gear?

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22 minutes ago, Jah said:

I understand why you might want power alteration. But why put power alteration into the passive training system, instead of putting it somewhere else, like Disciplines or Gear?

As I said, I believe it is better suited for vessel-leveling. I'd also like to see it put into the crafting system, but that seems like it's too much to ask.

I'm not sure what else could salvage the passive training system, for me. It just seems like it is going to cause a lot of angst for new players.

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