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5.7 Templar Commentary


Jagour
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Completely unplayable solo. Great in a group or 8-10   not even useful in a 5 v5 setting   Enemy players will just avoid and kite the templar. I don't know how to fix but this definitely is a commonly felt problem.

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Small change: A snare on the left click may be a nice addition to help cut down on the kitting, and wouldn't buff the templar in group play where it doesn't need a buff. 

Large change: Let Templar players determine how much of their resource they want to use to parry/fund abilities.  

Edited by Zatch
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This whole video seems to be based on very shaky ground, that the templar needs to be viable in every situation.  1v1 balance is not the goal of any class.  I'm not saying the templar doesn't have problems, but I am saying the idea a templar which is a melee character should be viable 1v1 against a ranged is a poor assumption.

There are many many many 1v1 pair ups where one side unless they screw up massively will always win. 

 

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+1 
Any argument that Templar is a group character meant to defend positions over duel solo enemies is perfectly valid.
Trying to argue for smart/counter Discipline use is something entirely different and not.
The main issue is that the core Pip generating mechanic of the Templar is...below average.
As Jagour points out Assassins and Duelists generate a Pip per swing and have faster attack speeds than the Templar.

The Templar attacks slowly, not for very much really, and only has a chance to generate a pip on that 3rd swing.
Any dodge out of it or combo break and those first 2 swings are wasted.

In previous builds Templars could compete in a Duel...now they really can't.
There used to be a lot of counter play and mind games that went into fighting as/against a Templar due to baiting out a Parry or Divine Light, that's no longer the case.
Anyone who has a dodge mechanic can kite a Templar out and Pip starve them.

Generating Pips on Parry versus all attacks is also important as it allows a Templar to potentially Turtle up and get some breathing room, block some CCs and maybe get some Health back. 

Personally I don't quite agree with the Divine Light snare though it's an intriguing idea. Templar has an AoE knockdown already as well as AoE pip gen per target.
That being said, I would love to see ways to modify or specialize skills to allow things like that, perhaps reduce the damage component or range but give that snare.
Not just for Divine Light but for most core class skills, I would very much like to see ways to modify and customize them a bit.

I expect in a few patches we'll see a pretty hefty balance pass, there's a lot of 'dead' class skills that are completely unused due to them being 'dead weight'.
Templar is in a way lucky to not have such an issue with 'dead weight' skills...but it has some serious pip issues.

Edit: Also allow Templars to use the Eminently Punchable passive!

 

Edited by Scorn

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14 minutes ago, Zatch said:

a snare on the left click may be a nice addition to help cut down on the kitting, and wouldn't buff the templar in group play where it doesn't need a buff. 

Knight has the Snare on LMB

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@Zatch @KrakkenSmacken Even in group fights it's mediocre at best currently unless there's a giant melee ball (except inside a fort throne room) but I have yet to see that in 5.7. I agree though that ofc it doesn't need to be able to beat a ranger in a 1v1 but I don't believe it should stand 0 chance. 

Edited by Jagour
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30 minutes ago, Jagour said:

@Zatch @KrakkenSmacken Even in group fights it's mediocre at best currently unless there's a giant melee ball (except inside a fort throne room) but I have yet to see that in 5.7. I agree though that ofc it doesn't need to be able to beat a ranger in a 1v1 but I don't believe it should stand 0 chance. 

Not going to argue group fights, but that's not what your video was showing.

I believe you're wrong, just as much as I believe if a ranger you gets jumped by an assassin 1v1 that knows what he is doing, the ranger should have almost zero chance, while if the ranger spots a lonely assassin out and about, the assassin should have almost zero chance as the ranger is able to pick him off without much trouble.

It's about situation, so the question really is, how is the templar in the situations the template is expected to excel at (group fights up close and personal), and is there job to finish one player, or to be an effective area denial unit that punishes those who stay close. If the performance in those roles is poor, what specifically can be done to fix it. 

I really think the idea of adding a snare so they can hold done one other player is not the right approach. There is already way too much CC spam in this game if you ask me.

The PIP problem, yea I get that.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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Templar was the first class I played and quickly moved on. Templar and Confessor both need some love. Both classes could be fun to play but currently have no real role to play. I can count on one hand the Templars I see played by anything other then a newb and less on the Confessor. Every class should have some counter class or at least a solid role in group play. What do Templars and Confessors counter? Class balancing I am sure will be addressed at some point. For now play a different class.

 

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

It's about situation, so the question really is, how is the templar in the situations the template is expected to excel at (group fights up close and personal), and is there job to finish one player, or to be an effective area denial unit that punishes those who stay close. If the performance in those roles is poor, what specifically can be done to fix it.

I'm afraid I don't agree here.

So hopefully we can all agree that this is not a game where every class should be balanced in every situation. I expect Templar vs. Ranger 1v1 will always be bad odds for the Templar, and that Assassin will never be as useful as Templar for a 10v10 brawl in a throne room, and so on. If anyone wants that level of balance, the video you linked above should explain why the devs aren't striving for it.

But you're leaping to an opposite extreme here that I'm also against: take the situation which the class is best at, and only buff them if they need it in that specific role. I don't expect Templar to be beating ranged classes 1v1, but I also don't feel that large group fights in tight quarters are the only situation Templar should perform well at, either. There's got to be a middle ground here. How would it feel to dedicate yourself to training and gearing a particular class, only to find that the class is useless outside the occasional siege?

I want the class to feel good (not the 'best', but useful at least) in a variety of situations, not just the one. To accomplish that you've got to be willing to give the class something that isn't focused on the "big group in a small area" niche. This doesn't mean transforming Templar into the next assassin/ranger/etc. 1v1 dueler. In particular: I like the idea of adding a single target slow, it's something that's sorely lacking in their kit.

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I really think the idea of adding a snare so they can hold done one other player is not the right approach. There is already way too much CC spam in this game if you ask me.

I get what you're saying about CCs, I agree that we've gone a little too far with hard CC spam (in this category I would put stun, knockdown/up, blind, even root if used against a melee). But there's not too much of the softer CCs/debuffs like movement slows, dodge pip removal, damage debuffs, resource drain, etc. Honestly I think the game could use many more of those things, especially if it comes at the expense of hard CCs. Specifically: I'd like to see a cooldown on riposte and maybe a longer cooldown on the aoe knockdown, along with adding that slow.

Edited by Avloren
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Well give them a ranged slow that damages the enemy like hurlbat and let them use bows....fixed.

myrms and champs have that for the most part are are still great in the melee ball throne room events described above.

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8 minutes ago, Avloren said:

I'm afraid I don't agree here.

So hopefully we can all agree that this is not a game where every class should be balanced in every situation. I expect Templar vs. Ranger 1v1 will always be bad odds for the Templar, and that Assassin will never be as useful as Templar for a 10v10 brawl in a throne room, and so on. If anyone wants that level of balance, the video you linked above should explain why the devs aren't striving for it.

But you're leaping to an opposite extreme here that I'm also against: take the situation which the class is best at, and only buff them if they need it in that specific role. I don't expect Templar to be beating ranged classes 1v1, but I also don't feel that large group fights in tight quarters are the only situation Templar should perform well at, either. There's got to be a middle ground here. How would it feel to dedicate yourself to training and gearing a particular class, only to find that the class is useless outside the occasional siege?

I want the class to feel good (not the 'best', but useful at least) in a variety of situations, not just the one. To accomplish that you've got to be willing to give the class something that isn't focused on the "big group in a small area" niche. This doesn't mean transforming Templar into the next assassin/ranger/etc. 1v1 dueler. In particular: I like the idea of adding a single target slow, it's something that's sorely lacking in their kit.

I get what you're saying about CCs, I agree that we've gone a little too far with hard CC spam (in this category I would put stun, knockdown/up, blind, even root if used against a melee). But there's not too much of the softer CCs/debuffs like movement slows, dodge pip removal, damage debuffs, resource drain, etc. Honestly I think the game could use many more of those things, especially if it comes at the expense of hard CCs. Specifically: I'd like to see a cooldown on riposte and maybe a longer cooldown on the aoe knockdown, along with adding that slow.

I probably overstated my unique usefulness view.  I guess if I was to compare it to another game, LoL, or other moba, it would be extremely useful in between 40-60% of situations. Most Champs in LoL can do two positions (Top,Mid,ADC,Support,Jungle), and some can handle three. But there are other champs that really only work well in one. (Vigar-Mid). So I guess going by what the vid was saying, I expect some classes to be really good at one thing, (assassin), but weak almost everywhere else, and some classes that are strong in multiple situations, but not the best at anything, (No example).

Regarding CC, If the Templar role is to hold area, and punish people leaving, I would like to see a power that added situational mobility to the templar, something like the 5th ed Paladin of vengeance.

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Relentless Avenger

By 7th level, your supernatural focus helps you close off a foe’s retreat. When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, you can move up to half your speed immediately after the attack and as part of the same reaction. This movement doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks.

So translated to CF maybe when an enemy activates a dodge close to you, you get a free reset your Censure timer and a pip, and refill a dodge.  Basically you can out chase anyone that got close enough to you to be hit.

I would rather see a few more situational things added or enhanced that really pushes class uniqueness, than just a rehash of other classes existing abilities. 

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Changing how things work and how classes play arealways based on trying things out.

 

Stating what the templar is able to do/play and trying other things out to make something different work is an extremely interesting perspective on the game.

Does the templar excell in grp play? Hell yeah. If someone suddenly make them viable in 1v1or like situations... that is when things become interesting!

 

Do different things than others!  Dont be just another in the crowd of wannerbes.

 

GJ Jag - I like this for the value of changing perspectives and exchanging ideas.  As well as the debate it starts!

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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I completely agree with switching back to giving Templar a pip on every lmb hit and returning the attack speed to what it was. It felt like an asinine change for absolutely no reason when it was done, and I can't see any logic behind the change.

 

That being said, Templar is a class built around punishing other melee classes. It should by design be in a bad spot when trying to fight a ranged character solo.

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14 minutes ago, Remlap said:

I completely agree with switching back to giving Templar a pip on every lmb hit and returning the attack speed to what it was. It felt like an asinine change for absolutely no reason when it was done, and I can't see any logic behind the change.

 

That being said, Templar is a class built around punishing other melee classes. It should by design be in a bad spot when trying to fight a ranged character solo.

I agree that it should be at an extreme disadvantage against a class with range. I just don't believe that it should stand 0 chance. Even a 90 to 10 odds in favor of the ranger is fine with me. Currently it doesn't even feel like that though. I think it should be the same between all class counters. Whether that is because they implement disciplines that maybe change the play style of a classes base kit or just better balancing between base kits.

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4 minutes ago, Jagour said:

I agree that it should be at an extreme disadvantage against a class with range. I just don't believe that it should stand 0 chance. Even a 90 to 10 odds in favor of the ranger is fine with me. Currently it doesn't even feel like that though. I think it should be the same between all class counters. Whether that is because they implement disciplines that maybe change the play style of a classes base kit or just better balancing between base kits.

A lot of that is less due to the templars kit and more just how ridiculous the range advantage is currently, back when range was a lot more even in older patches Templar had a chance against ranged enemies. I believe JTodd has a tweet out about moving max range to 64m(or close to that), which is still a tad ridiculous but it's better than it currently is.

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giving templar any previous powers makes it OP again. I would like to say add him more builds viable through disciplines. probably access to ranged weapons.

the problem is about broken classes like assassins, rangers and champions. ACE need nerf fix em. they are quite strong in all aspects in the game - dps, mobility and alot of other aspects. dps give big advantages in pvp, mobility help you stay alive, help you pursue and such

 

also I still do not understand why he uses pips. mana/energy will be better.

but overall I agree, current templar is underpowered in any aspects except massive fights and pve...

I would like to see serious classes weakness in some aspects

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: rangefall

Discord makkon#8550

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