makkon

Stealth OP. Toxins OP

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Yes yes, ACE should not focus on balance atm. But hey, assassins and duelists everythere. They are annoying. This game is not for solo, right? Not sure, here we are - stealth.

Yes, mole hunter and something else can sometimes counter stealth but you need this disc be on, you need to catch stealther, you have to wait long CD after.

 

My suggestions around stealth:

1) Put on stamina consume while in stealth. While stand still - low consuming. While moving - faster consuming.

2) While ppl try to resurrect another person - there should be reveal area which are detect all hidden persons in 30-40m around. want to interrupt - take a risk

 

another problem is toxins. while you are with basic items there is not so big problem. until they craft advanced. the amount of damage which going through toxins - annoying. there are not so much counters to this compared to amount of assassins around who use it for free pretty much with 1 button. yes, there are protection versus such kind of damage but hey, until ppl reach this in soft launch most of em leave this game due to unbalance.

My suggestions around toxins:

1) Reduce duration or reduce amount of damage per tick

2) Add some reagents to toxins so ppl need to fill vial before use it. Working X amount of hits only, required to stay out of stealth and cast filling.

3) Correct me if bow hits still put on toxins (do not test it for a long time). if so, this should be disabled.

 

there should be risk vs reward in this game for all classes. stealth = god mod for free any time you want versus any amout of enemy.  out of stealth with opener skill, put on toxins, some hits -> stealth and wait until your target bleed out. not so big fun, right? why I do not see knights and myrmidons ganking solo around enemy areas? -)

Edited by makkon

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The real problem with Assassins and Duelists is the Agent Provocateur heal ability. This just allows them to endlessly reset the fight until they beat you in a 1v1. I've had fights vs Assassins where they jumped me and I was able to get them down below 25% multiple times, only for them to re-stealth and heal up to full. Make them use bandages like the rest of us.

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2 hours ago, makkon said:

Yes yes, ACE should not focus on balance atm. But hey, assassins and duelists everythere. They are annoying. This game is not for solo, right? Not sure, here we are - stealth.

Yes, mole hunter and something else can sometimes counter stealth but you need this disc be on, you need to catch stealther, you have to wait long CD after.

...

there should be risk vs reward in this game for all classes. stealth = god mod for free any time you want versus any amout of enemy.  out of stealth with opener skill, put on toxins, some hits -> stealth and wait until your target bleed out. not so big fun, right? why I do not see knights and myrmidons ganking solo around enemy areas? -)

my problem:

"original" duelist burrow - now used as the racial power - had a rooted animation and a few seconds before the stealth was applied

however now the "new" duelist burrow and the assassin stealth [tied to tray switch] = are instant and can be done while moving and dodging

it is fairly easy for someone to now weave into stealth

p.s. lay low heal is fairly insane too [and doesn't match its tooltip duration of 6 second duration either. should have a pip cost in current state]

ZhAhn04.jpg

[6s duration on tooltip. 15s in reality] [better self healing than a healer on you generally despite the numbers on the tooltip e.g. 500+ ticks]

S1ElnRa.jpg

Edited by Tinnis

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The advanced toxins are insanely strong with the current gear/skills people have. Agent should probably be split into 3 different discs, but I'd like the ability to use bandages in stealth if the heal is to go away. 

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1 hour ago, soulein said:

The real problem with Assassins and Duelists is the Agent Provocateur heal ability. This just allows them to endlessly reset the fight until they beat you in a 1v1. I've had fights vs Assassins where they jumped me and I was able to get them down below 25% multiple times, only for them to re-stealth and heal up to full. Make them use bandages like the rest of us.

ye, also big problem. I support of removing any free and brainless OP heal from non healer classes.

but supreme problem is easy and free infinite stealth. damn, assassins even can build effective pure dot based builds with at least 3 ways (bleed + toxin + burn + poison).

1 hour ago, Destrin said:

You could always play elken ranger. Free shadow site, free flare, free expose remove. Plus all the other goodies.

/s

if you talking with me, I regard this as sarcasm =) 

there are alot of ways what ppl can do with this. most of em will affect CF online in negative way

 

1 hour ago, Arkade said:

There needs to be a delay before people can enter stealth after switching to the survival tray, like they did with the speed buffs.

did not think about delay, can be also working idea...if not current mechanics with switching panels.

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Fact check: there is a delay between switching into Survival tray and being able to stealth.

You can advocate for a nerf to Nature Toxin (the only one that does a high amount of damage) if you like but the trade off for that high damage is that Diffusion hits like an infant. A lower damage Nature Toxin means I'll get to hit you with Diffusion for 1K+ like the people using Poison and Disease toxins, is that what you want?

I think the amount that Lay Low heals for is fine, considering you must be able to stay in stealth while it's healing you or you get short changed. The problem with Lay Low is the extremely short cooldown. The current cooldown on Lay Low could be tripled and it'd still be a good ability.

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6 hours ago, moneda said:

You can advocate for a nerf to Nature Toxin (the only one that does a high amount of damage) if you like but the trade off for that high damage is that Diffusion hits like an infant. A lower damage Nature Toxin means I'll get to hit you with Diffusion for 1K+ like the people using Poison and Disease toxins, is that what you want?

whole nerf for all kind of toxins. but first should be stealth nerf. then, if stealth nerf keep population such high, nerf toxins, then lay low. to make this class party based - not OP all inclusive.

and yes, I think there is only templar and druid atm working as they should. as well as probably knight and myrmidon after bug some fixes. all other is too self-sufficient or in demand to not notice it

6 hours ago, moneda said:

I think the amount that Lay Low heals for is fine, considering you must be able to stay in stealth while it's healing you or you get short changed. The problem with Lay Low is the extremely short cooldown. The current cooldown on Lay Low could be tripled and it'd still be a good ability.

there is also passive regen in stealth. I think he did more healing than even lay low.

 

another fix for toxins is remove dots and make it more active fighting based - debuff (weakness to some kind of damage, stackable CC, slow etc), self or party buff (attack speed, more damage to poisoned target, mark target etc)

Edited by makkon

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Resource-using stealth on a significant timer is a vastly superior mechanic, that I posted about years ago, when I saw that CF was going with the awful stealth design we are seeing now.

In a PvP-oriented MMO, it is very counterproductive to give some people near absolute power over if and when an encounter begins or ends.

It was fairly annoying in Shadowbane, and there was no solo-harvester playstyle in that game. In this game it will be the death of the harvesters.

Edited by McTan

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8 minutes ago, makkon said:

there is also passive regen in stealth. I think he did more healing than even lay low.

The only passive HP regen anyone has in stealth by default is the same everyone has in the Survival tray.

LOL @ wanting to nerf a class simply because you think the population is too high.

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I think some people in this thread have been beat badly by stealthers. 

There are multiple ways to deal with assassin ganks. Imo the agent heal may need a nerf, but calling for a large nerf is an overreaction. 

I would increase the lay low CD and/or decrease the flare CD for molehunter. 

Edited by MJayed

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11 hours ago, Zatch said:

If they nerf stealth stealthers will be worthless. Toxins are strong (too strong at current gear levels) but nerfing the ability to enter stealth isnt the answer. 

nah. they just need to unstealth sometimes near rock / behind a tree, regen stamina and go again.

 

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Stealth needs a limited resource mechanic with a cool down or timer of some type. It always has been a poor mechanic in a pvp game  but allowing infinite stealth will drive the sheep from the game and lead to burnout from the wolves sent to constantly protect them. 

 

Albion Online's stealth mechanic is a perfect example on how stealth should work in a pvp game without risking the mechanic being too unbalancing. 

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12 hours ago, Zatch said:

If they nerf stealth stealthers will be worthless. Toxins are strong (too strong at current gear levels) but nerfing the ability to enter stealth isnt the answer. 

I agree. 

I like stealthers ability to restealth. But because it's easier to restealth that has made the agent heal too strong. 

Maybe things like the toxin, caltrops, stink bomb should very briefly (like 1 second?) reveal the user. Kind of like go for broke on the duelist. 

 

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Honestly they should make Agent a duelist only disc. The class has to few disciplines as it is, and the assassin doesn't necessarily need it. 

Edited by Zatch

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I don`t know much of this but see devs are working on getting new content running every patch which is huge. Takes some time and things come together step by step. I don`t think they are willing to adress balancing issues just yet cause you don`t know what they are up to. There may be new classes or combination or disciplines which only drop from monsters or whatever. Guess overall balance will be in one of the later patches when it comes to open beta or so. So be patient.

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So Stealth is an issue which I think seriously needs more consideration than just "nerf it". A few things to highlight about the state of Stealth;

  • Stealth doesn't work correctly, 100% of the time.
  • Anti-Stealth doesn't work correctly, 100% of the time.
  • We are missing a core component of the Anti-Stealth mini-game; Tracking
  • The Assassin and the Duelist's current design was balanced around its ability to survive if it got the "jump" on someone. A total redesign would be necessary if Stealth was limited in any way (especially if it was tied to Stamina like Burrow is right now).
  • You have an added requirement to hit extra buttons to show a revealed stealther to others (once you finally detect a stealther, you can see them, but allies can't until you hit another button).

Without everything working 100% of the way Blair explained it a year ago, it's fascinating how many people still find ways to complain about it (likely minutes after they get stealth-ganked they come here to cry). With that said, Stealth even as Blair described it, is simple and boring. I want a robust Stealth system that rewards skill, not itemization. Having a higher stealth skill versus someone's perception is not a skill based decision. In fact, Stealth right now is virtually absent of player-skill. 

Stealth needs to be changed to reflect their earlier original design, including;

  • Positioning based bonuses for both the Stealther, and the Anti-Stealther roles (aka Player Skill element)
  • Stats that can be earned via the Skill Tree and from Itemization
  • No power should be 100% guaranteed to reveal a stealther (it's supposed to right now if the stealther is at a specific range/distance from you)
  • You should 100% be able to know when Stealthers are in the area (via Tracking), assuming you have taken that ability. Note: I've also advocated for a Discipline that could "throw off the scent" of Tracking skills... it's just more interesting than having a hard counter.
  • Adding "Revealed" debuffs which prevent players from immediately (2-5 seconds) returning to Stealth should they screw up.
  • Once a stealther is detected, that player is immediately revealed to ALL players (no need for additional buttons).

The rather primitive state of Stealth right now is extremely bothersome to me. It's actually one of the blandest interpretations of Stealth I've seen in a modern MMO, and that's saying quite a bit.

Edited by Scree

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