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McTan

Arcana Scroll - First Impression

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I really like the idea of the Arcana Scroll. It gives better loot tables for adventurers, more differences between crafters, and more weapon and damage variety (sorely needed).

My first reaction was actually an assumption that I thought would be even better than how I understood the scrolls to work. I thought for sure that the scroll would be a consumable. To me, this is so far superior to permanent scrolls, that I wouldn't be surprised if I was just misunderstanding how it works & this thread is moot.

The benefits:

  • More impetus to keep adventuring, even after found
  • More uniquely crafted items (craft Arcane longsword, but experiment differently - perhaps on int or str or atp or sp, if we get a system that intricate)
  • A chance to be a crafter of renown - an amazing success roll on an orange resourced, rare scroll
  • A chance to create a very, very valuable blueprint, if you manage to craft a very good item (I anticipate blueprints not being permanent, but having craft charges based on blueprint/paper quality)
  • An ease on the inventory and banks of crafters, who should simply use their scrolls up, instead of switching them back and forth

What do other people think?

Edit: Hyriol let me know that they mentioned they could make it limited use, so now look at this thread as an argument for why they should.

 

 

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I would like to see both models used.

For permanent recipes.

  • After seeing how things started the last two tests, I would like to see some versions as a stop gap to passive training. Current recipes that are very easy to get and permanent, so new players can try their hands at crafting a few things before having to commit training time to them.  The required discipline slot's will mean that anyone not dedicated to crafting will want to swap them out quickly.
  • Current recipes could also be used in a pinch to grease the wheels on of the sub components and dependencies for things like rivets and such. Obviously the lowest of the low quality because of training, and maybe even a special version that always results in "flawed" result with no experimentation, but a way to get a few things done in a pinch.
  • I would like to see a "once in a campaign" super special item recipes that are permanent, so that he who finds it can become known for that particular item or thing. 

For temporary, limited use recipes. 

  • Ultra specific recipes on things we already have.  For example a Metal bar recipe that can only make "rose gold" bars, but gives you a couple of bonus pips and lower difficulty.
  • Special item recipes, that have zero chance to fail. One "charge" recipes that basically contain pre-named items with a legendary status of sorts.
  • Experimental items ACE want's to try out without polluting the entire player base. Drop a few of a special recipe of something ACE wants to try, and if it goes poorly, there is a limited number in circulation that will eventually decay out anyway. 
  • Another option would be to treat some of these recipes like they do with discipline runes.  Once you "equip" it, the only way you can equip a different one, is to destroy the current one.  This would happen if you took it out of your scroll case, OR you dropped the discipline that gave you the case slot.

I would also consider making the scroll cases craft specific, and maybe even put a craft specific bonus on them.  So you can have a blacksmith case, or a leather crafter case, but not both at the same time.

I don't really want to see overlap with the thrall/factory idea.  I would think these would burn out a "charge" or whatever at the point of combine or experimentation, prior to the choice to make a BP.  Perhaps even restrict some of them from ever being made into BP's. 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Making these permanent does not negate the need to explore for more recipes.  They should be lootable (unless equipped), but beyond that I want to see them as permanent and not a consumable.

My wish would be for these recipes (later down the road) to allow classes to use a variety of weapons, and not be limited to one or two.  This is an after launch item, that would help to differentiate builds.

I don't like Krakkens idea of having the recipe be like a rune, that is destroyed is replaced. These should be swappable, but not necessarily easy to come by.  Permanent recipes are not a bad thing. If they really wanted to get bold, go the route that EvE took and allow crafters to research the arcana recipes in order to lower the cost of resources.  When you first get the recipe it is better than a normal item, but also takes twice the materials. Researching the recipe would lower the material cost. Two crafters could have the same permanent recipe, but one may make more profit because they have a researched recipe. These are the type of exploratory things I hope ACE will do with the Arcana.


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19 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I would like to see both models used.

For permanent recipes.

  • After seeing how things started the last two tests, I would like to see some versions as a stop gap to passive training. Current recipes that are very easy to get and permanent, so new players can try their hands at crafting a few things before having to commit training time to them.  The required discipline slot's will mean that anyone not dedicated to crafting will want to swap them out quickly.
  • Current recipes could also be used in a pinch to grease the wheels on of the sub components and dependencies for things like rivets and such. Obviously the lowest of the low quality because of training, and maybe even a special version that always results in "flawed" result with no experimentation, but a way to get a few things done in a pinch.
  • I would like to see a "once in a campaign" super special item recipes that are permanent, so that he who finds it can become known for that particular item or thing. 

For temporary, limited use recipes. 

  • Ultra specific recipes on things we already have.  For example a Metal bar recipe that can only make "rose gold" bars, but gives you a couple of bonus pips and lower difficulty.
  • Special item recipes, that have zero chance to fail. One "charge" recipes that basically contain pre-named items with a legendary status of sorts.
  • Experimental items ACE want's to try out without polluting the entire player base. Drop a few of a special recipe of something ACE wants to try, and if it goes poorly, there is a limited number in circulation that will eventually decay out anyway. 
  • Another option would be to treat some of these recipes like they do with discipline runes.  Once you "equip" it, the only way you can equip a different one, is to destroy the current one.  This would happen if you took it out of your scroll case, OR you dropped the discipline that gave you the case slot.

I would also consider making the scroll cases craft specific, and maybe even put a craft specific bonus on them.  So you can have a blacksmith case, or a leather crafter case, but not both at the same time.

 

I don't really want to see overlap with the thrall/factory idea.  I would think these would burn out a "charge" or whatever at the point of combine or experimentation, prior to the choice to make a BP.  Perhaps even restrict some of them from ever being made into BP's. 

 

I'm going to revise this a bit. 

I think that scrolls could become the products of "Make a BP", provided you can't make a  new BP with a scroll.  If they could have not only the recipe, but also the stats of a BP's rolls on baked in, it would be a good way to implement players personally using BP's.

That could obviate need for ACE to make any of early recipes.  All you would need is a crafter to crank you out a white only BP's to get you through the early game before training. 

It would also give crafter/sellers another thing to sell.  BP's of well crafted rivets for example, that a player could use to make a bunch of, would be much more valuable than all the one off's we currently have.

A way for harvester to use BPs to build harvest tools in the field would also be good, so they only have to carry the BP.

 

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2 hours ago, Teufel said:

Making these permanent does not negate the need to explore for more recipes.  They should be lootable (unless equipped), but beyond that I want to see them as permanent and not a consumable.

My wish would be for these recipes (later down the road) to allow classes to use a variety of weapons, and not be limited to one or two.  This is an after launch item, that would help to differentiate builds.

Okay, it does not negate the need to explore for more, but it very substantially lowers it. Frankly, we already have permanent recipes, I can not think of a compelling argument to make them permanent objects. Each crafter needs less than one of each, if they can be traded. All lower quality recipes will be moot if you find a higher quality one of the same type. The actual object made via the recipe would also be substantially less sought after or unique, because the crafter could make as many as they can resource.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the less I agree with your wish for them to be permanent. If you want to do a select few being permanent, I guess I can stomach it, but they are sitting on a gold-mine of gameplay for both combatants and crafters by giving them finite charges.

As for the research, I'm intrigued, but that is a much more complicated system than just making them have finite charges, and is less interesting to me, personally.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Our differences come from personality, and I don't like being able to make something and then never having access to it again.  That would frustrate me as a player, to get a cool new recipe with a limited amount of runs.  So I recognize that's my personal stance.

I still don't think it will be an issue to have them be permanent similar to how BPs were permanent in EvE. Material scarcity and, as I suggested material quantity could still play a huge part in why some times arcana items wouldn't be crafted, even with a permanent recipe.

I've seen this same type of recipe/BP system work in EvE and think there is room for permanent recipes, and consumables. The reward of hours of searching and having dozens of consumable recipes and 1 permanent is a great driver to get out into the world. If training becomes an issue then put a restriction on higher tier recipes that you can't use the recipe until x% of that crafting tree is skilled. It means being able to move into training experimentation pips earlier instead of going g straight for recipes.

The biggest argument for permanent that I brought up earlier is an implementation of researching the recipes in order to lower the material cost. In this scenario you might want 2 or 3 of the same recipe. Recipe 1 is used to start crafting right away, while recipes 2 and 3 you start researching. When recipe 2 has x hours invested then you stop researching it and start using it to craft with, for a significant profit due to lower resources. Recipe 1 starts to get researched and 3 keeps getting g research.  Leap frog all 3 recipes until 3 is at it's limit, then sell off the first 2 to someone else new to the game.

No matter how they handle the system, the arcana recipes have a lot of natural flexibility built in, and it looks to be a good system that will make crafting deeper.

Edited by Teufel

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I already am skeptical about this concept. So a crafter who has sacrificed their training options to learn recipes, now see 'a better' recipe that can be just learned by something found in the world and equiped by who? Does the person even need to be a Blacksmith to create it? Can a non Blacksmith just buy some components and craft it? Sure they have a lot less pips but again I am skeptical that this will help keep crafters engaged and relevant versus it not being in the game. 

I'd rather see the recipe be in my learning path but have a component that is very rare found by adventures where the adventure has to then find 'who can make is awesome component into an awesome weapon' .... make world rare recipes like the new Hunger Shard gathering skill that requires choices to get too that causes crafters to feel and look different from everyone else by their training choice 

Is it found or is the Arcane Scroll crafted? if found in its form then its a 2X kick to the nuts taking a relevant crafting step away from a RuneCrafter for something found like a Surging Spirit in the world.

Edited by Anhrez

Don't forget, the one EK that no one will judge you for looting your guilds treasury is Anhrez's Doober Shack. Where you can take those long con gains and 'simplify' them to more easily fit in your inventory. While you are unloading your hard earned winnings, swing by the Bazaar and pick up something to celebrate your genius.

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29 minutes ago, Anhrez said:

I already am skeptical about this concept. So a crafter who has sacrificed their training options to learn recipes, now see 'a better' recipe that can be just learned by something found in the world and equiped by who? Does the person even need to be a Blacksmith to create it? Can a non Blacksmith just buy some components and craft it? Sure they have a lot less pips but again I am skeptical that this will help keep crafters engaged and relevant versus it not being in the game. 

I'd rather see the recipe be in my learning path but have a component that is very rare found by adventures where the adventure has to then find 'who can make is awesome component into an awesome weapon' .... make world rare recipes like the new Hunger Shard gathering skill that requires choices to get too that causes crafter to feel and look different in their training. 

Is it found or is the Arcane Scroll crafted? if found in its form then its a 2X kick to the nuts taking a relevant crafting step away from a RuneCrafter for something found like a Surging Spirit in the world.

It's the pips, and the difficulty, which is tied to the recipe that can make a found recipe a dedicated crafter only sort of thing, so I am not sure why you are skeptical about it.

They can simply make it so difficult that capstone level skill, plus gear, plus a leader, plus a keep workbench with bonus is essentially needed to pull off anything but a "flawed" result or "critical failure", so that if anyone but a skilled crafter who has sacrificed training options, and taken all the appropriate steps tries to use it, they will basically never get a good result and just waste resources.

Just seeing the difference a couple of pips makes on white gear in the last few weeks of early game training, I don't see what the problem would be considering trained and dedicated can get up to a 20 pip cap, and untrained can get what, two?

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I actually like the idea of gating power (passive or activated abilities) unlocks behind skill training. Recipe gating is in the same vein as this. I think it would add considerably more interesting things to pursue in skill training and would create a sense of urgency in how you approach playing and training overall. 

Granting recipes by drops allows them to introduce new rare items via loot drop tables. All for this.


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6 hours ago, Teufel said:

Our differences come from personality, and I don't like being able to make something and then never having access to it again.  That would frustrate me as a player, to get a cool new recipe with a limited amount of runs.  So I recognize that's my personal stance.

I still don't think it will be an issue to have them be permanent similar to how BPs were permanent in EvE. Material scarcity and, as I suggested material quantity could still play a huge part in why some times arcana items wouldn't be crafted, even with a permanent recipe.

I've seen this same type of recipe/BP system work in EvE and think there is room for permanent recipes, and consumables. The reward of hours of searching and having dozens of consumable recipes and 1 permanent is a great driver to get out into the world. If training becomes an issue then put a restriction on higher tier recipes that you can't use the recipe until x% of that crafting tree is skilled. It means being able to move into training experimentation pips earlier instead of going g straight for recipes.

The biggest argument for permanent that I brought up earlier is an implementation of researching the recipes in order to lower the material cost. In this scenario you might want 2 or 3 of the same recipe. Recipe 1 is used to start crafting right away, while recipes 2 and 3 you start researching. When recipe 2 has x hours invested then you stop researching it and start using it to craft with, for a significant profit due to lower resources. Recipe 1 starts to get researched and 3 keeps getting g research.  Leap frog all 3 recipes until 3 is at it's limit, then sell off the first 2 to someone else new to the game.

No matter how they handle the system, the arcana recipes have a lot of natural flexibility built in, and it looks to be a good system that will make crafting deeper.

I am fine with both. I highly prefer charges. There already are permanent recipes. Non-permanent recipes lead to many more unique items. The thing about permanence is...well...it never goes away. And economic loops work much, much better with sinks.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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