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State of the Knight 5.7.1


Durenthal
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Note: Editing this post to reflect some PCM stuff and more testing in 5.7.1

 

Hi, @mhalashace and @thomasblair, me again, back with another episode of "State of the Knight."

Overall, the knight is a fun class to play.  It has a nice base toolkit.   But it's not an especially effective class to play, particularly early on.  The knight scales pretty well with training and gear - at the start of training, it's the weakest melee class, but it feels better at end-game (even though I can't really say it's stronger than any other melee class at end game).

The defining power of the knight should be its block.  But for the most part, block is pretty meh.  It cuts damage taken, but not by a lot (especially with end-game armor mitigations), and at the cost of preventing the knight from doing anything else.  The resultant damage bonus lasts one attack, and in no way makes up for the loss of dps time while you were blocking.  The reflect on elemental damage may mean more when confessors and druids become more popular, and when frostweavers arrive, but for now, it's not as good as advertised.

The defining power of the knight is actually chain pull.  It's on a 25s cooldown, but it does decent damage, and acts as a nice range closer if you can get close enough to use it.  I get about 50% of my kills with chain pull (as opponents tend to try to escape at low health and it's my only ranged attack).

Let's take a look at the full power toolkit of the knight:
1 - charge - 25m range charge that stuns a target if you cover the full 25m and end within 5m of the target, facing the target.  Back in hunger dome, you would charge as long as you held the key (to a max of 25m) and the stun went off when you released the key.  That version was much better than the current version.  Recommendation: Charge should last while the key is pressed, with a minimum of 5m and a maximum of 25m, and the charge should end and the stun activate on key-release.

2 - Shield Bash - in theory, this is a good power.  It sets the target's dodge pip count to 0.  BUT (and this is a big but), it is rarely available when you need it (because it only activates after landing 3 consecutive LMBs or after filling your block meter), and it does jack for damage.  Also, the target can regenerate a pip as soon as 1s after the power sets them to 0.   Further, while it says it hits critically if used a second time in 5s, it's rarely available again 5s after the first use, and the crit is for about 100 dmg so that part of the power is total BS.  Recommendation: Take away the activation requirements, take away the auto-crit on a second hit in 5s (given its crap dmg, that's just a slap in the face).

3 - Shield Swipe / Shield Stun combo - This is a decent combo.  Both elements hit for reasonable damage.  The stun is telegraphed by the shield swipe (something I like, and that I wish you'd continued with for later classes.  The early classes telegraph their CC, later classes do not.  This puts the earlier classes at a disadvantage against experienced players).  The cooldown on part 2 of the combo is 7 seconds longer than the cooldown on part 1, which feels silly.  I would much rather you split the difference (23 and 30) and gave each power a 26s cooldown.

4 - Onslaught Combo - this is a nice combo, and again, I wish it were something that later classes also had to manage.   The first power in the chain does two very weak attacks.  The second stage powers are strange.. brutal strike is a hard hitting attack.  But twin assault has to be the weakest attack in the game from any class.  I don't understand why you think it has any value or should be included in the combo chain at all.  There is never a situation where a player would prefer twin assault over brutal strike.   The third pair in the combo chain (shockwave and obliterate) are both good powers, and which one I choose is a tactical decision rather than one always being better than the other.  Recommendation:  Fix or remove twin assault, improve the damage on Onslaught.

5 - Noble Blood / Oath of Will combo - early game, this combo is absolutely necessary for the resource regen.  The barrier is too small to have any real value - it just invites a shieldbreaker dispel power to knock you down.  The combo is used just for the regen, really.  At end game, this power drops out of the knight's power bar entirely, once they get a good PCM weapon and good power efficiency training.  Given that Blixtev has now said power efficiency nodes in the skill tree are going away, this is going to be necessary throughout a knight's life.  Recommendation: Make the barrier a better percentage of maximum health.

6 - Chain Attack - no one calls it that - it's chain pull, and always will be.  Great class-defining power.  Relatively high cost, long cooldown (especially compared to myrm net), mediocre damage, but the pull effect is wonderful.

7 - Shield Slam - again, a good power in theory.  In practice, it's so situational that I only slot it if I'm going to be fighting on the edge of a cliff or wall.  It's extremely high cost, does poor damage, and knocks a target away from the knight (and as a melee class, you rarely want that).  When used to knock someone off a cliff it's very satisfying, but it cannot justify a regular spot on the power bar.  The elken and centaur charges are more effective versions of this power - they are gap closers (instead of gap creators) and their knock-up is just as good as Shield Slam's knock back.

Q - Whirling Leap - Again, better in theory than in practice.  It pulls characters who are already within 5m of you right to you (it says 8m, but it feels much smaller than that).  But the pull doesn't take effect until almost 2s into the animation for the power, so I frequently hit it, only to see one or more of my targets move out of the power's range before the pull takes effect.  Recommendation: Increase the range to 10m, and apply the pull at keypress, before the character leaps into the air.

Races:  Knight is available to Human, Elken, High Elf, Stoneborn, Rat, and Centaur.  Until mounts come into the game, Elken and Centaur have an advantage in that out of combat movement feels so much better on trailmaster classes.  I prefer human for the extra power bar slot and passive power slot, but rat stealth, high elf humiliate, and stoneborn knockdown response are all decent for knight.

Disciplines:  Disciplines are pretty unbalanced for all classes at the moment. There are some very strong ones, and some very poor ones.  I've noticed that class and/or role specific disciplines (Agent Provocateur and the champion-only majors, for example) tend to be stronger than general purpose ones.  And unfortunately the knight gets nothing class- or role-specific in disciplines.   Disciplines are a big enough topic for a hundred other posts, so I won't address them here.

So that's the objective layout of the class.  Now for the subjective bits.   The knight doesn't feel tanky enough to be a true tank, and is lacking an identity.  It's not the best melee class at anything.  I tend to play knight as a harasser because it does have a decent variety of crowd control powers. It has the poorest damage output of all melee classes.  Comparing it to the other tanky melee classes: Champion is much tankier than a knight due to all the self-sustain.  Myrm is tankier than a knight due to the self-sustain.  Templar is tankier than a knight due to the self-sustain.  Hmm, maybe the knight could use some on-demand self-sustain.   Templar is the undoubted king of area control and area denial.  The divine light and parry/AE knockdown (on no cooldown timer, doing a pile of damage on top of the KD) is crazy strong, and the templar can heal himself and others.  Myrm has wonderful self-sustain (the half-giant racial is so kind to them for mitigating berserker crash) and much better damage output than the knight.  Champion has great damage, great mobility, extra invulnerability powers (UW 1&2), and utterly amazing self-sustain.

Knight has plate armor natively, so at end game knight mitigations are very good (they're crap at early game, and the lack of self-sustain really shows the disparity between the knight and the other tanky classes at this point).  Block further increases damage mitigation, but at the cost of making the knight do nothing but stand there blocking.  Sure, he's taking less damage, but he's doing absolutely nothing to influence the fight.  He's not protecting his allies, he's not doing damage, he's not able to move with his group.  He's standing there (or inching along) like he's a spectator to the fight.  So most knights don't block much these days.  It's useful for the reflect on elemental attacks (but confessors are weak, and sickle druids don't come out until they get their sickle 2 months into the game.  Frostweavers don't exist yet) - maybe block will have more value at release when those issues relating to energy-casting classes are fixed.

Finally, knight is really gimped by power efficiency in early gameplay.  It gets much better at end-game, but at the start, a charge followed by a knockdown combo uses the knight's entire energy bar (or the knight may not even have enough energy to complete the combo if he uses a heavy weapon).  It'd be nice to see power costs tweaked a little to make this less onerous during the first few months of a knight's life.  Edit:  With weapon finesse and power efficiency training, it's relatively easy to hit the -25% power efficiency cap.  However, with that cap hit, wielding a bastard sword results in a +33% PCM, meaning that the bastard sword is completely unplayable for knights even at end-game.   Blixtev or Halash, you really need to do a pass on power costs for knight and drop them significantly.

All in all, there's nothing really wrong with the knight - he's just not as good as the other melee classes, and is consequently the scrawny kid picked last for the team at recess.  I would like to see you add some self-sustain to the knight to make him feel tankier (maybe put the self-sustain on block to give it more value).  Give one or two of his powers more damage (and either remove twin assault entirely or make it worthwhile).  Knight doesn't need an overhaul, but it does need a little love to make it a good choice for a group to take along.

 

Edited by Durenthal
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1 hour ago, Durenthal said:

1 - charge - 25m range charge that stuns a target if you cover the full 25m and end within 5m of the target, facing the target.  Back in hunger dome, you would charge as long as you held the key (to a max of 25m) and the stun went off when you released the key.  That version was much better than the current version.  Recommendation: Go back to the Hunger Dome version of the power.

This ability changed due to the changes to the movement controller. It's my understanding that they still intend to have it work the way it did previously where we could control the duration, but it's been a long time now, so maybe they've given up on it. 

1 hour ago, Durenthal said:

2 - Shield Bash - in theory, this is a good power.  It sets the target's dodge pip count to 0.  BUT (and this is a big but), it is rarely available when you need it (because it only activates after landing 3 consecutive LMBs or after filling your block meter), and it does jack for damage.  Further, while it says it hits critically if used a second time in 5s, it's never ever available again 5s after the first use, so that part of the power is total BS.  Recommendation: Take away the activation requirements, take away the auto-crit on a second hit in 5s, and double its damage.

When this ability was first added, they said it would at some point be combined with Shield Slam. I'm not sure if that's still the plan. Given that neither ability is used much, I hope they have better plans than that.

1 hour ago, Durenthal said:

4 - Onslaught Combo - this is a nice combo, and again, I wish it were something that later classes also had to manage.  Only the champion has anything similar, and the champ's version is only two powers deep instead of 3.  The first power in the chain does two very weak attacks.  The second stage powers are strange.. brutal strike is a hard hitting attack.  But twin assault has to be the weakest attack in the game from any class.  I don't understand why you think it has any value or should be included in the combo chain at all.  There is never a situation where a player would prefer twin assault over brutal strike.   The third pair in the combo chain (shockwave and obliterate) are both good powers, and which one I choose is a tactical decision rather than one always being better than the other.  Recommendation:  Fix or remove twin assault.

Twin Assault costs significantly less energy than Brutal Strike. If you are low on energy, it's better to do less damage than to be out of energy when you try to use Shockwave/Obliterate. Of course, the costs for the knight's base abilities are so out of whack compared to the costs for discipline abilities. 

1 hour ago, Durenthal said:

5 - Noble Blood / Oath of Will combo - early game, this power is absolutely necessary for the resource regen.  The barrier is too small to have any real value - it just invites a shieldbreaker dispel power to knock you down.  The power's used just for the regen.  At end game, this power drops out of the knight's power bar entirely, once they get a good PCM weapon and good power efficiency training.

I absolutely despise this combo. Noble Blood doesn't scale at all and we always have to use both abilities together because of the lengthy cooldown.

1 hour ago, Durenthal said:

7 - Shield Slam - again, a good power in theory.  In practice, it's so situational that I only slot it if I'm going to be fighting on the edge of a cliff or wall.  It's extremely high cost, does poor damage, and knocks a target away from the knight (and as a melee class, you rarely want that).  When used to knock someone off a cliff it's very satisfying, but it cannot justify a regular spot on the power bar.  The elken and centaur charges are more effective versions of this power - they are gap closers (instead of gap creators) and their knock-up is just as good as Shield Slam's knock back.

Back in Hunger Dome, this was our best ability. All abilities were animation locked, so being rooted while charging it didn't really matter, and it did a lot more damage. Now with combat being so mobile and the damage being so low, it's almost completely useless. 

1 hour ago, Durenthal said:

Q - Whirling Leap - Again, better in theory than in practice.  It pulls characters who are already within 5m of you right to you (it says 8m, but it feels much smaller than that).  But the pull doesn't take effect until almost 2s into the animation for the power, so I frequently hit it, only to see one or more of my targets move out of the power's range before the pull takes effect.  Recommendation: Increase the range to 10m, and apply the pull at keypress, before the character leaps into the air.

The physics still don't work well. There are still times where targets will be flung away. I'd rather scrap it entirely and replace it with something better. 

1 hour ago, Durenthal said:

Disciplines:  Disciplines are pretty unbalanced for all classes at the moment. There are some very strong ones, and some very poor ones.  I've noticed that class and/or role specific disciplines (Agent Provocateur and the champion-only majors, for example) tend to be stronger than general purpose ones.  And unfortunately the knight gets nothing class- or role-specific in disciplines.   Disciplines are a big enough topic for a hundred other posts, so I won't address them here.

Secutor is the only one that is probably intended for the knight, but we are still waiting for Form Up to be added. It would be nice to have some other options.

1 hour ago, Durenthal said:

So that's the objective layout of the class.  Now for the subjective bits.   The knight doesn't feel tanky enough to be a true tank, and is lacking an identity.  It's not the best melee class at anything.  I tend to play knight as a harasser because it does have a decent variety of crowd control powers. It has the poorest damage output of all melee classes.  Comparing it to the other tanky melee classes: Champion is much tankier than a knight due to all the self-sustain.  Myrm is tankier than a knight due to the self-sustain.  Templar is tankier than a knight due to the self-sustain.  Hmm, maybe the knight could use some self-sustain.   Templar is the undoubted king of area control and area denial.  The devotion and parry/AE knockdown (on no cooldown timer, doing a pile of damage on top of the KD) is crazy strong, and the templar can heal himself and others.  Myrm has wonderful self-sustain (the half-giant racial is so kind to them for mitigating berserker crash) and much better damage output than the knight.  Champion has great damage, great mobility, extra invulnerability powers (UW 1&2), and utterly amazing self-sustain.

Knight has plate armor native, so at end game knight mitigations are very good (they're crap at early game, and the lack of self-sustain really shows the disparity between the knight and the other tanky classes at this point).  Block further increases damage mitigation, but at the cost of making the knight do nothing but stand there blocking.  Sure, he's taking less damage, but he's doing absolutely nothing to influence the fight.  He's not protecting his allies, he's not doing damage, he's not able to move with his group.  He's standing there (or inching along) like he's a spectator to the fight.  So most knights don't block much these days.  It's useful for the reflect on elemental attacks (but confessors are weak, and sickle druids don't come out until they get their sickle 2 months into the game.  Frostweavers don't exist yet) - maybe block will have more value at release when those issues relating to energy-casting classes are fixed.

Finally, knight is really gimped by power efficiency in early gameplay.  It gets much better at end-game, but at the start, a charge followed by a knockdown combo uses the knight's entire energy bar (or the knight may not even have enough energy to complete the combo if he uses a heavy weapon).  It'd be nice to see power costs tweaked a little to make this less onerous during the first few months of a knight's life.

All in all, there's nothing really wrong with the knight - he's just not as good as the other melee classes, and is consequently the scrawny kid picked last for the team at recess.  I would like to see you add some self-sustain to the knight to make him feel tankier (maybe put the self-sustain on block to give it more value).  Give one or two of his powers more damage (and either remove twin assault entirely or make it worthwhile).  Knight doesn't need an overhaul, but it does need a little love to make it a good choice for a group to take along.

Knights are way too dependent on gear. As you noted, they don't feel like a tank. Knights will have a higher mitigation cap, but that just means that they need to focus more on mitigation at the expense of other things. Back in the day, knights had an inherent mitigation bonus and they were much, much tankier. Maybe instead of just raising their mitigation cap by 15%, they should raise their base mitigation by 15%. I also wouldn't mind some active abilities that provide mitigation, whether it's something that replaces shield slam or whirling leap, or whatever. If the other tanks are going to have sustain through healing, let knights have it through mitigation.

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2 hours ago, Durenthal said:

The early classes telegraph their CC, later classes do not.

still can't believe the cleric has zero chaining or branching combos, esp for a single tray class ¬_¬ *hums wistfully in legionnaire*

i wonder how the frost weaver will look.


1 hour ago, Arkade said:

Noble Blood doesn't scale at all and we always have to use both abilities together because of the lengthy cooldown.

Back in Hunger Dome, this was our best ability. All abilities were animation locked, so being rooted while charging it didn't really matter, and it did a lot more damage. Now with combat being so mobile and the damage being so low, it's almost completely useless

so many "fixed value effects" and other class elements all around that were clearly designed in a lower mobility game [with different ttk/damage/healing] than we currently have... 

Edited by Tinnis
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Chain Attack also has a substantially lengthy CD timer, about 3x the Net and Hurlbat of Myrm and Champ.

Shield Slam's damage is pathetic compared to Myrmidon's Pulverize where I would expect similar damage due to 'animation time' being identical

With the change from PCM to Weapon Weight with Weapons you're not going to see a PCM on a weapon lower than .05 from a Longsword
combined with another .05 if you're running an Advanced Shield (which I think you probably should)

Shield Bash is also problematic due to characters generating Dodge pips independently from when they are used/lost.

Champion from my understanding was never meant as a 'tanky' melee class but since introductions of the Massive Heal from UW combined with iFrames and Disciplines it has become so.
The Champ specific Disciplines would actually work great for a Knight or Myrm as well and I would love to see those opened up.
Runescarred Gladiator and Destroyer both have interesting abilities that they add and I find it a shame they are restricted to simply one class.
 

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I hate to say this, but the only thing the Knight needs is the removal of the heal component of the Champion's Ultimate Warrior heal. The self healing potential of the Champion makes them far and away the best melee class for both solo/small scale and larger fights.

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

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They should give second wind with upgrade to third wind capability to knights, downgrade it to first wind for champions.

Make a new and optional block ability that when actively blocking you take ZERO damage, but cannot move, and get no damage bonus.

The various "wind" abilities trigger when you don't take damage right? So make it so knight can choose to bunker up with their shield, while their stamina holds they regen health rapidly, then come back out swinging.

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16 hours ago, Scorn said:

The Champ specific Disciplines would actually work great for a Knight or Myrm as well and I would love to see those opened up.
Runescarred Gladiator and Destroyer both have interesting abilities that they add and I find it a shame they are restricted to simply one class.

Destroyer would make a lot of sense for Myrm if they were able to make the Champion "Rage" abilities convert to Myrmidon "Fury". Extra fury regen passive....HP buff based on fury....plus the Aegis Heal. Yes Please! Not exactly sure how Runescarred would work with Myrm. 

Runescarred Gladiator would make a lot of sense for Knight as far as modifying their "Resolve" ability (used to be called Second Wind) to increase the healing. Destroyer could also make sense for knight if Rage = Energy conversion is possible. 

I like it. 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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Knight definitely needs some love as the oldest class in the game. I would love to see them take some time after they get frost weaver in and add/improve abilities for all the other classes with all the new tech they have,

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5 minutes ago, Zatch said:

Knight definitely needs some love as the oldest class in the game. I would love to see them take some time after they get frost weaver in and add/improve abilities for all the other classes with all the new tech they have,

At this rate we will not see frostweaver this year..  :(

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Quote

1 - charge - 25m range charge that stuns a target if you cover the full 25m and end within 5m of the target, facing the target.  Back in hunger dome, you would charge as long as you held the key (to a max of 25m) and the stun went off when you released the key.  That version was much better than the current version.  Recommendation: Charge should last while the key is pressed, with a minimum of 5m and a maximum of 25m, and the charge should end and the stun activate on key-release

hum i'm not agree with that, the charge work well, and i think we don't give an easy way to use it

actualy you can use it like that ( at the 9min)

(it's in french but we don't care), i like the fact you must turn around your opponent to got it, it's skilled, it's a beautifull move, it's amazing!

well, otherwith i find the troubadour rune work well too actualy

 

Quote

7 - Shield Slam - again, a good power in theory.  In practice, it's so situational that I only slot it if I'm going to be fighting on the edge of a cliff or wall.  It's extremely high cost, does poor damage, and knocks a target away from the knight (and as a melee class, you rarely want that).  When used to knock someone off a cliff it's very satisfying, but it cannot justify a regular spot on the power bar.  The elken and centaur charges are more effective versions of this power - they are gap closers (instead of gap creators) and their knock-up is just as good as Shield Slam's knock back.

shield slam fully charged work well after charge, or may be use occasionaly after shockwave, no? and it's more a ability you would use to kick out a guy on your cleric for example, it's a defensive ability.

my two cent

Edited by tiruwrel
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7 hours ago, tiruwrel said:

hum i'm not agree with that, the charge work well, and i think we don't give an easy way to use it

actualy you can use it like that ( at the 9min)

(it's in french but we don't care), i like the fact you must turn around your opponent to got it, it's skilled, it's a beautifull move, it's amazing!

 

 

shield slam fully charged work well after charge, or may be use occasionaly after shockwave, no? and it's more a ability you would use to kick out a guy on your cleric for example, it's a defensive ability.

my two cent

Yes, we can steer the charge and do stuff like you showed in the video. The difference is that now we HAVE to do that in order to connect. 

In the past, we were able to do that, but we had total control over when the animation ended. We would press and hold the button and when we released the button, the charge would end and the stun would happen. The only reason it changed is because they made massive changes to the movement controller and haven't been able to replicate the full functionality yet.

Regarding Shield Slam, I wouldn't call it a defensive ability. The knockback isn't that useful outside of knocking someone off a ledge and the damage is pathetic given that we are rooted while using it, we have to charge it, and it is guaranteed to crit when charged over 66%. It counts as Block while using it, but it costs 344 energy.

Here is a video showing the damage from a fully charged Shield Slam. I am using advanced weapons. I also used Dazzling Blades from the Blade Master discipline to contrast the difference in damage. Dazzling Blades costs 21 energy to use, does not require charging and can be used while moving. Like Shield Slam, it hits 3 targets. It also reduces the targets' crit chance by 40 for 15 seconds.

So tell me, if you had to choose between these 2 abilities, which one is going to be on your bar?

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Long time Knight player here and I feel like its about time to add my 2 cents as well. Every time I log in its becoming harder and harder to justify having knights in a group comp or even to try to roam around in small groups. Kind of reiterating what was said before every other melee is bringing more to the table. Templars are tankier, have self sustain, can sustain others and just become more useful the larger the fight gets. Champions can do everything, really no downside at all at their current state and even new champion players can beat the most experienced knights 1 on 1 due to that incredible self healing. Assassins now with plate are just as tanky as knights and can simply leap away to return at full health as well as completely shut down all healing. Duelists can do way more damage and still be quite tanky with plate on as well as having crazy single target CC with the expose punishes.

The only thing knight can bring to the table is controlling enemy movement on the battlefield by pulling with chain pull, pushing with elkin charge/ shield slam and their base kit CC. However with the new changes to weapon weight knights are now pretty much locked in to only being able to cast one combo per bar of energy with no real ways to improve this (this is with using the weapon finesse minor). As a knight you can charge and maybe get a 444 combo off (if you weapon is light enough and your energy is starting full) or maybe use 1 or 2 discipline powers (depending on the discipline). Between doing that you auto attack for 5 seconds and must wait for your energy to be full again before starting another combo. If the 444 combo is started at half energy you wont be able to regen your energy in time to use the knockdown or bleed effectively putting the combo on cool-down and wasting it. The oath of will combo can be used to give your energy a boost but the 2-3 second cast time of the combo is 2-3 seconds of getting slammed with CC and damage just so you can start another combo slightly earlier. Knight is being left in the dust as other classes are being reworked and added into the game. Playing a knight is starting to feel like playing Champion before they got buffed to insanity. The only role a knight can fill effectively right now is to land a chain-pull, knock off dodge pips and then let their team hopefully finish the target. Other than that you might as well take a different melee class. Knight powers need a serious tweaking in cost and damage... until then they will remain a pretty gimped class sadly enough. 

TL:DR - Knights power costs and/or damage need to be looked at to either be more impactful or allow knights to reliably combo powers together. Their current state of usefulness is lagging further and further behind other melee classes. 

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  • 3 months later...

I'm just checking back into Knight since I last played it (and greatly enjoyed it) in HungerDome.  This write-up is still very much on point 3 months later.  The charge was definitely a change for the worse.  And after playing Mym and Champion mitigation, the Knight block comes off as feeling like an inadequate second class citizen.  I would love to see a successful block give something such as an instant aoe mitigation buff to allies.

 

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