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Angelmar

Character Diversity Numbers SB vs CF

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With relaunch of Shadowbane Emu I was wondering how many Race/Base Class/Class Combos there were in Shadowbane vs Crowfall.  Just a fun bit of food for thought.

Shadowbane:

12 Races, 4 Base Classes, 22 Classes

172 Unique Race/Base Class/Class Combos Available.

Crowfall:

12 Races, 11 Classes

41 Unique Race/Class Combos Available

 

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That being said if one race/class combo is better than the other, most people will just play that 1 class/race combo so diversity doesnt real exist dispite there may be a billion combinations. Lets take rangers for example in crowfall atm as it stands now they can be many races yet only 2 may be relevant and 2 may be pushing it. almost all rangers are Elken atm with the couple of exception who dont wanna play an animal race but still want to play ranger.

Of course this will all changed in crowfall perspective down the line one would think. the point is though haveing 1hundreds of combination in a game is kinda pointless if only a couple of relevant ones, its better to focus on a few than praying it works with alot :D

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25 minutes ago, veeshan said:

That being said if one race/class combo is better than the other, most people will just play that 1 class/race combo so diversity doesnt real exist dispite there may be a billion combinations. Lets take rangers for example in crowfall atm as it stands now they can be many races yet only 2 may be relevant and 2 may be pushing it. almost all rangers are Elken atm with the couple of exception who dont wanna play an animal race but still want to play ranger.

Of course this will all changed in crowfall perspective down the line one would think. the point is though haveing 1hundreds of combination in a game is kinda pointless if only a couple of relevant ones, its better to focus on a few than praying it works with alot :D

well this exactly. 

Also this happened in Archage as well. Out the 120 combination I think only 10 to 20 were actually viable. Up to 30ish I think were doable but you wouldn't really benefit from choosing the last ones. (Btw. this goes to idk 2.whatever). With the introduction of hybrid weapons (matk + patk for example, or ranged + magicial or whatever) the game can have a higher number of viable combinations now. 


You get the wolves...lots of wolves...and sheep that wear armor and have developed an appetite for blood soaked grass - dubanka

Even insects smell good when roasted - a random confessor

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52 minutes ago, veeshan said:

That being said if one race/class combo is better than the other, most people will just play that 1 class/race combo so diversity doesnt real exist dispite there may be a billion combinations. Lets take rangers for example in crowfall atm as it stands now they can be many races yet only 2 may be relevant and 2 may be pushing it. almost all rangers are Elken atm with the couple of exception who dont wanna play an animal race but still want to play ranger.

Of course this will all changed in crowfall perspective down the line one would think. the point is though haveing 1hundreds of combination in a game is kinda pointless if only a couple of relevant ones, its better to focus on a few than praying it works with alot :D

I certainly think that is fair.  The most surprising in doing the math was Aelfborne with 27 and I have trouble thinking of any big standouts.... but there are so fun "candy" toon options.  Aelf Blademaster Warrior,  Aelf Blademaster Warlock,  some stance dance Crusaders.  (For any non-SB folks that read this Blademaster is actually a discipline, but its so significant it may be another class or mini-class)

Here is the breakdown for the curious

Aelfborn: 27
Aracoix: 12
Centaur: 10
Dwarf: 6
Elf:  23
HalfGiant:   7
Human:30
Irekei:17
Minotaur: 3
Nephilim: 16
Shade:12
Vampire: 9
-------
Total: 172

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They rule set was key though - nearly every combination could have relevance in lore play. In addition, crowd think isn't always correct. I think a number of the guilds who played on lore showed just how powerful certain classes could be with races that would be considered "gimp" on other servers. Look at the Flight of the Furies video, for instance, or the Half Giant bow huntresses, or FTP's druids (which I believe were aelfborn).

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On 9/8/2018 at 10:02 PM, vandarr said:

They rule set was key though - nearly every combination could have relevance in lore play. In addition, crowd think isn't always correct. I think a number of the guilds who played on lore showed just how powerful certain classes could be with races that would be considered "gimp" on other servers. Look at the Flight of the Furies video, for instance, or the Half Giant bow huntresses, or FTP's druids (which I believe were aelfborn).

It further cemented some of the RTS aspects of the game when the available Races and Classes were organized into "factions" or "army lists". Each Lore Charter had a unique character to it, along with it's inherent strengths and weaknesses. I'd like to see a recurring Lore campaign for Crowfall which mirrors the Vindication ruleset from SB. Not a faction based server, but a FFA/Dregs server where guilds must pick from available faction types when pledging to the Campaign.


Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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On 9/13/2018 at 10:12 AM, soulein said:

It further cemented some of the RTS aspects of the game when the available Races and Classes were organized into "factions" or "army lists". Each Lore Charter had a unique character to it, along with it's inherent strengths and weaknesses. I'd like to see a recurring Lore campaign for Crowfall which mirrors the Vindication ruleset from SB. Not a faction based server, but a FFA/Dregs server where guilds must pick from available faction types when pledging to the Campaign.

Amen! It was fascinating to see how your enemies would counter their charter's inherent weaknesses - do you just over exaggerate their strengths, or do you try and brainstorm a character to cover the gap?

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1. Richness & deepness of Shadowbane was impressive (sb > crowfall). Base classes, runes...

https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

2. Character creation allows to use unique traits and more customization options. (sb > crowfall)

3. STANCES !!! with unique base class behaviors (sb > crowfall)

https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Stances

4. Crafting was painfull and poor on sb (crowfall > sb).

5. Exclusive and full liberty on character building. You could make huge mistakes on char building in sb. that was fun. Crowfall seems more a wait and click to unlock all features. At the end, with all trained, all builds will be same on the training side. (sb > crowfall)

6. The track system was fantastic on sb. On crowfall, solo ressources crafter have poor chances against hidden assassins. No way to use long range track on crowfall (sb > crowfall).

https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Tracking

7. Environnement depth, Ek. Rangers camp, castle, crowfall is better on this side (crowfall > sb).

 

 

 

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I'll just add two things, even though I'm not necessarily disputing anything said about the race/class combination selection in games I've never played (like ArcheAge).

 

(1) Actual character viability cannot be confirmed or verified by mass conformist trends. Average players who haven't studied a game thoroughly will often default to safe "FOTM" builds held in high esteem by popular approval. While this phenomenon will undeniably boost the number of particular builds (and decrease diversity all around), this tendency alone does not make any of those builds more "viable." If you've played any PvP game for a long enough time, surely you've seen enough of those builds crash and burn after a relatively brief period of time (occasionally through patch changes, but typically through the evolution of average PvP/GvG tendencies). "Viability" in general is never in a stable state, but always in flux -- as it should be in a solid MMO with a player-base seeking new advantages and undergoing their own form of adaptive evolution. 

 

(2) The diversity showcased by SB's race/class combo ruleset is a model worthy of emulation, whether one has enjoyed the game or not. The model had so much depth that it offered veteran players opportunities to experiment with new, unorthodox, and perfectly viable ideas even after playing the game for years. Moreover, anyone who has played the game long enough has seen plenty of builds and group dynamics declared "impossible," "ridiculous," or "not viable" by the majority of the playerbase (even on class discussion boards on the like) effectively 'break out' later and then themselves become "FOTM" due to the efforts and advocacy of a few dedicated contrarians. Such provides its own "rush" and reward to skilled players that cannot be duplicated elsewhere, and it undeniably keeps even those players who've played in hundreds of sieges and "done it all" coming back for more. Moreover, I've seen this happen in SB on some server or another in just about every period of the game, so this had very little to do with class re-balancing by patch changes alone (although of course certain FOTM builds spawned after certain passive racial abilities and the like were patched into the game later). 

 

Just a few examples I could think of from the top of my head would include PA templars back in the day, various human builds (starting with Bofis' GS warrior probably, but even including various other human warrior, caster, and at least one barb build), various aelf warrior builds, elf BW warrior builds back when you could use GS passive d null power with 'em, different PvP druids (a class that, until then, was strictly for farming except for a few dedicated contrarians), BM warriors and warlocks, different bird specs, HG sentinels, certain rangers, I could go on and on really. 

 

If Crowfall could duplicate this aspect, it'd at least ensure them a dedicated following for a substantial period of time even if the game itself becomes 'obscure' or 'forgotten' in the fickle mass market, which is worth something I guess. 

Edited by managainsttime

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Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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My preferred solution would be to have somewhat regular "balance" changes that only are applied to new campaigns. This would allow for a constantly shifting meta.

 

Of course something will have to be done to make the passive system work with this. My idea would be to allow players to respec before starting new campaigns.

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also some of the spec group builds only worked in spec groups

the most fun I had was with my con god birdy scout and my int based cloth wearing doting  nuketress(when that bow proc'd it hurt...bad)

during banes my rat shade assy was awesome.

oh to play a theif again....in any game...sigh


Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient but sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me.

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