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Magic - How Should It Be Handled?


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Yeah OP no offense but might be trying to over think it a bit. This game will feature action based combat, which likely means a limited number of skill available during combat, a soft target system whereby you have to be facing or aiming at your target to hit. and the resources will likely be mana,stamina,energy, etc

Not all action combat systems are limited action sets. Tera for example, has classes with tons of abilities (20-30) that create unique situations and counters to other classes abilities, to classes that have few abilities (10-15) but each one is extremely important to the set. 

Edited by vunak
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or we try something completely new and unheard of....mana!!

Reagents are terrible, in my opinion. Mana is the easiest way for the developers to balance and tweak power of casters.

That's a really good idea.

Thanks, I'd like to work on it some more because I didn't put much thought into it, add your thoughts if you wanna help :)

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Yeah OP no offense but might be trying to over think it a bit. This game will feature action based combat, which likely means a limited number of skill available during combat, a soft target system whereby you have to be facing or aiming at your target to hit. and the resources will likely be mana,stamina,energy, etc

i hope you have to aim at the target like in any FPS game to hit stuff.. like darkfall but if people dont know what that is i can say like CS(counter strike

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I am all for the more powerful spells requiring reagents, however there should be more than enough skills/spells a pure mage can use while naked and with no inventory to defend themselves when say running from a graveyard back to their bank.

 

I think a system similar to DFO would work really well. The 3 soulbound weapons and mana missiles.

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I think the problem I have with reagents is that they don't work as a practical balancing mechanism. Their either really basic, which just make them a gold sink, and that's fine, or they have really rare ingredients, which make it difficult to access a mages features on the battlefield. A mage is going to be balanced based on what he can do on the battlefield, if he can do something and your unable to obtain it, than your at a disadvantage, while wealthy guilds have the ability to field entire teams of mages with such ammunition as to see whatever major spell used often.

 

And is it a strategy?, no, if you want the game to be strategic, the aim is to set behaviors and demands on the battlefield so they have to think about how to use their character effectively, not how to earn up an advantage externally. 

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Hello everyone, my name is Timothy and I love magic more than anyone I've ever met.

 

First off, magic can not be properly done in a game. If it were perfect and satisfying and tangible, it wouldn't be magical.

 

Moving forward from that, there are a lot of really awesome avenues that I have not yet seen in many games, let alone MMO's--where nitpicky flavor-crushing mind-numbing BALANCE is the reigning lord and master.

 

There are a few things I have been craving to see in a game for a good number of years. Let's take a little walk.

 

1. Finite Magic

 

I would love to see a game that makes use of finite magic. If you've ever played D&D 3.5 / 5e, you'd be well acquainted with Vancian casting. In this method, magic is much more academic and thought-out. Here's the basics:

 

  • You have only a limited number of powerful spells to cast between rests. For a video game, this could be cut down to a 10 second visit to a temple/fountain of sparkles that refreshes your inner font of magic.
  • These spells are overpowered. They deal more damage to more targets than any swordfighter could muster in the same amount of time. 
  • Without these spells, the caster's primary goal becomes not to fight, but to get their spells back. They should hardly stand a chance without them.
  • Cantrips, or second-nature easy-peasy spells, punctuate these powerful spells. These are itty bitty firebolts and the like that a caster can use in between bigger efforts as suppressive fire.

 

2. Group Casting

 

I have never seen group casting in a game (if you have, that's awesome! Please tell me about it, but don't be a condescending %+@!$#?&*^ just because I haven't played that game). I would go nuts over the ability to join hands with other casters and launch a devastating spell as a combined effort.

 

Let's run through an example of what I mean.

 

  1. A caster alerts her battalion that she's casting [big Effin Kaboom]. She stands still and suddely there's a big flashy spellcircle that extends out from her.
  2. Guess what? There are 2 other points on the circle with open spots for other casters to stand in.
  3. Two other casters take up the queue, and step into position.
  4. Ending A. After a channeled duration, there is a sudden and violent burst of fire and rubble as an enemy fortification is blown to bits and its inhabitants just die. They just die. 
  5. Ending B. An assassin creeps up behind one of the casters. She slits their throat and and cackles with glee. The cast is fudged--but it doesn't stop there. There remaining casters are overwhelmed with magical energy, as they lose control of the spell. They are engulfed in flames and run screaming into the fields beyond.

 

3. Puzzle Magic

 

Not like doing sudoku while you channel a spell, but magic that you can screw up and fail. Using magic should never be easy--if it were, everyone would do it. I would love to see spellcasting that requires very specific movement patterns, like tracing or line across the ground before it completes the ritual and brings downa  thunderstorm.

 

4. Non-Combat Magic

 

One of the greatest spoils of being a g-d wizard is that you live a life of convenience. I feel this idea should be reflected in a game someday. Travel, housing, comfort, food and security should all be a spell away.

 

5. Learned Magic

 

What if, instead of looting a sweet skull-clad broadsword, or some dope ass shoulder armor, you looted an ability? Tearing a page out of a fallen caster's spellbook would be so much more satisfying than taking his poorly made socks or what have you. (Did I use that right? I'm seeing it everywhere.)

 

I'm going to stop there, but be warned, I will someday continue. I have an endless love for caster classes. 

 

Brakebills class of 2012 OUT!

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Hello everyone, my name is Timothy and I love magic more than anyone I've ever met.

 

First off, magic can not be properly done in a game. If it were perfect and satisfying and tangible, it wouldn't be magical.

 

Moving forward from that, there are a lot of really awesome avenues that I have not yet seen in many games, let alone MMO's--where nitpicky flavor-crushing mind-numbing BALANCE is the reigning lord and master.

 

There are a few things I have been craving to see in a game for a good number of years. Let's take a little walk.

 

1. Finite Magic

 

I would love to see a game that makes use of finite magic. If you've ever played D&D 3.5 / 5e, you'd be well acquainted with Vancian casting. In this method, magic is much more academic and thought-out. Here's the basics:

 

  • You have only a limited number of powerful spells to cast between rests. For a video game, this could be cut down to a 10 second visit to a temple/fountain of sparkles that refreshes your inner font of magic.
  • These spells are overpowered. They deal more damage to more targets than any swordfighter could muster in the same amount of time. 
  • Without these spells, the caster's primary goal becomes not to fight, but to get their spells back. They should hardly stand a chance without them.
  • Cantrips, or second-nature easy-peasy spells, punctuate these powerful spells. These are itty bitty firebolts and the like that a caster can use in between bigger efforts as suppressive fire.

 

2. Group Casting

 

I have never seen group casting in a game (if you have, that's awesome! Please tell me about it, but don't be a condescending cutie just because I haven't played that game). I would go nuts over the ability to join hands with other casters and launch a devastating spell as a combined effort.

 

Let's run through an example of what I mean.

 

  1. A caster alerts her battalion that she's casting [big Effin Kaboom]. She stands still and suddely there's a big flashy spellcircle that extends out from her.
  2. Guess what? There are 2 other points on the circle with open spots for other casters to stand in.
  3. Two other casters take up the queue, and step into position.
  4. Ending A. After a channeled duration, there is a sudden and violent burst of fire and rubble as an enemy fortification is blown to bits and its inhabitants just die. They just die. 
  5. Ending B. An assassin creeps up behind one of the casters. She slits their throat and and cackles with glee. The cast is fudged--but it doesn't stop there. There remaining casters are overwhelmed with magical energy, as they lose control of the spell. They are engulfed in flames and run screaming into the fields beyond.

 

3. Puzzle Magic

 

Not like doing sudoku while you channel a spell, but magic that you can screw up and fail. Using magic should never be easy--if it were, everyone would do it. I would love to see spellcasting that requires very specific movement patterns, like tracing or line across the ground before it completes the ritual and brings downa  thunderstorm.

 

4. Non-Combat Magic

 

One of the greatest spoils of being a g-d wizard is that you live a life of convenience. I feel this idea should be reflected in a game someday. Travel, housing, comfort, food and security should all be a spell away.

 

5. Learned Magic

 

What if, instead of looting a sweet skull-clad broadsword, or some dope bottom shoulder armor, you looted an ability? Tearing a page out of a fallen caster's spellbook would be so much more satisfying than taking his poorly made socks or what have you. (Did I use that right? I'm seeing it everywhere.)

 

I'm going to stop there, but be warned, I will someday continue. I have an endless love for caster classes. 

 

Brakebills class of 2012 OUT!

A game about crazy, overpowered casters could be super fun, but Crowfall is not that game. I'd prefer something simple, yet effective. Something that's easy to use and balance (meaning no puzzles and no overpowered socks)

However, I like some of your ideas. Imo, non-combat magic is a must and group casting could work, but would take a lot of tweaking.

I'm not sure how I feel about finite magic. It could add more depth and strategy, but it could also be a terrible chore. This game must be fun. If running back to recharge after every fight isn't fun, it shouldn't be in the game.

As for spell looting, I don't like it. Spells are something you know. They can't be taken from you, unless someone cuts out a piece of your brain. They can take your staff and some other stuff but they can't take your knowledge!

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You snort a drug and while you're under it's influence you can has magic.

 

It is addicting and you will have withdrawal symptoms.

 

I can get my hands on some, if you're interested...

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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I believe magic should not be handled as a whole.
No copy-paste magic classes with different numbers/effects.
For example in Warhammer, pyromancers have this unique ability to do more damage the more they cast, but also increasing the chance they fail and have their spell blow up in their face.
Classes should have a unique feeling/playstyle to them, in a way that class-swapping should be difficult primarily for the player to get used to.

One thing that Crowfall does right for casters is friendly fire.
This alone adds extreme depth.
Anyone who ever played DnD with proper rules can understand why.

Edited by satyros
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A game about crazy, overpowered casters could be super fun, but Crowfall is not that game. I'd prefer something simple, yet effective. Something that's easy to use and balance (meaning no puzzles and no overpowered socks)

However, I like some of your ideas. Imo, non-combat magic is a must and group casting could work, but would take a lot of tweaking.

I'm not sure how I feel about finite magic. It could add more depth and strategy, but it could also be a terrible chore. This game must be fun. If running back to recharge after every fight isn't fun, it shouldn't be in the game.

As for spell looting, I don't like it. Spells are something you know. They can't be taken from you, unless someone cuts out a piece of your brain. They can take your staff and some other stuff but they can't take your knowledge!

 

I actually agree that Crowfall should not be that game (in terms of the complicated stuff). . I got a little ahead of myself in that post in my lust for magic.

 

 

I believe magic should not be handled as a whole.

No copy-paste magic classes with different numbers/effects.

For example in Warhammer, pyromancers have this unique ability to do more damage the more they cast, but also increasing the chance they fail and have their spell blow up in their face.

Classes should have a unique feeling/playstyle to them, in a way that class-swapping should be difficult primarily for the player to get used to.

 

One thing that Crowfall does right for casters is friendly fire.

This alone adds extreme depth.

Anyone who ever played DnD with proper rules can understand why.

 

Right on. Totally agree.

 

I am getting so sick of games that use 15 variations of the same spell.

 

Can YOU spot the differences?

 

[Firebolt] - Launch an orange glowy ball that deals damage to a target.

[icebolt]   - Launch a blue glowy ball that deals damage to a target.

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The magic is one of hte few things I hate about Dark Souls. IT just feels so "wonky" to use and not at all fun like the melee combat is.

 

I'd like to see magic handled more like say...well for a lack of better example Star Wars lol.

 

Being able to fight and then toss out a spell or two (IE force push/pull).

 

I'm REALLY hoping they have a good hybrod melee-magic user, a kind of spellsword/Battlemage, waging into melee combat and tossing out magic spells like a JEdi or something.

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This all sounds really cool, different magic should be really opieop in the right situation. Lets say you get a choice between a fireball or a frost beam. You pick the fireball and its a huge fiery ball of slow moving doom that does some serious aoe dmg. Great in castles and close quarters where it can hit and explode really quick, but get into a big field and you need to apply some skill to make that fireball effective. 

 

3. Puzzle Magic

 

Not like doing sudoku while you channel a spell, but magic that you can screw up and fail. Using magic should never be easy--if it were, everyone would do it. I would love to see spellcasting that requires very specific movement patterns, like tracing or line across the ground before it completes the ritual and brings down a  thunderstorm.

 

Alot of the stuff in your post is really cool! Something like this could be pretty cool if depending on how you did it you could change certain aspects of the spell.

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PERCEPTION

 

nerd1.jpg

 

REALITY

 

mB4fEG4.jpg

 

 

Do you feel that insecurity? DO YOU FEEL IT!?

 

A little tongue in cheek ;) As soon as I saw Tim and magic in the same sentence - Holy Grail, Scene 24 ;)

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