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Asair

Leveling and Skill system suggestion

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New player here, 2nd day. The only things I've done for the last two days was stare at my skill screen anxiously waiting to unlock some useful crafting and gathering skills and manufacturing arrows so that I can level up. I've reached level 20 on almost exclusively arrows and now I feel like I've hit a wall until I can get better at gathering green pieces of wood.

It feels completely terrible.

The leveling system feels completely thrown in, the most efficient way to level is crafting arrows, what? Killing mobs gives wretched xp, utter waste of time unless you need hide. Sadly even the more difficult to craft items give paltry experience when sacrificed compared to arrows. I feel like sacrificed xp of crafted items should be determined by the sum of its parts with multipliers for success and difficulty.  Being able to passively skill-up is great if I had zero chance to play the game, but playing feels pointless. I've already obtained the very best equipment my current skills have to offer and I can't level up until I can reliably gather uncommon pieces of wood to convert into arrows.

My suggestion would be to...

Scrap leveling your vessel altogether, this is a pvp game, all level does it make people who arn't maxed out more hesitant to join in. The game doesn't feel built for a leveling system, just remove it. Give everyone 90 attributes to customize their vessel as they please and call it a day.

Make it so that you can gain additional skill points by actually playing the game in conjunction with the passive system.

Gatherers gain extra skill points from gathering based on the track they're training in and what they're actually gathering and can sacrifice those materials for extra skill points.

Examples:I have Exploration Basics as my current track. I gain skills points from gathering at the basic nodes (knotwood, cobblestone, and slag) and if I choose, I can sacrifice some or all of those materials to gain extra skills points.

The more advanced you get at gathering, the more specific what you can gain skill points from gets.

Excavation is limited to ore, stone, and graves. 

Crafting professions would only gain bonus skill points equal to the sum of the components used to craft the item, with multipliers for difficulty, quality, and success. All of which would improve how many skills points that the crafted item could then be sacrificed for.

For the Combat profession, they could get huge chunks of skill points for pvp kills, and a smaller amount for mob kills. There could also be a trophy system like mobs currently have where they drop items that can be sacrificed for skill points. Combat tracks would be harder/slower to gain addition skill points but less restrictive. 

Race tracks and class tracks would gain additional skill points any time you gain skill points from your profession tracks but at a reduced amount. You would also be limited to gaining additional skills only for the race and class type of your current vessel.

In conclusion,

I feel like these changes would bring back meaningful progression and give players reasons to login every day instead of only logging in when they've accumulated a large pile of skill points. I understand that these changes could also shorten the amount of time it takes to unlock all of the skills, but I doubt it would be a drastic reduction.

 

Edited by Asair

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I think there passive skill gain system is in place to keep casual players on par with hardcore skill wise.

They added vessel leveling system because some people wanted active leveling because they felt like they wernt achieving anything in game cause they were not leveling.

I would be down for like an achievement system tbh that rewarded you for activity like mining x amount of a type of resource or crafting x amount of tools and reward something like a new recipe of different looks like a red runestone pick and so on.

They realy want people logging on because there having fun not for grinding levels out. whcih i think is fine but atm they dont have enough stuff in the game to be relevant for that atm. When the game done people will probaly log in more to push there faction get resources and so on.
The worst part of the skill system tbh was the firts week where no one had crafting skills to make stuff appart from intermediate :P although i think there removing the reipe from the skill tree at some stage now so that should fix that.

Also you can harvest green with no skill in harvesting you just need to hit R7 nodes with a +11 or 17 pickaxe and u will get greens normally. However you came in at a rough time because the season just swapped to fall its hard to harvest anything that not common due to seasona affecting drop rate.
During spring/summer time your spose to stock pile resources to get you though the winter and what not. Which wont be an issue when game is released because you will be starting campaign at the right time and play through that campaign all the way just little sucky for new players coming in late atm

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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12 minutes ago, veeshan said:

I think there passive skill gain system is in place to keep casual players on par with hardcore skill wise.

 

The skill tree is so horribly designed in its current iteration that new players will run into this wall as the OP did, log off and not bother logging in for a week or 2. Skill tree needs a total overhaul from the ground up. I think it needs more parallel paths and less investment in order to move on to next tier. As it stands now its nothing more then a linear timegate. 

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40 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

The skill tree is so horribly designed in its current iteration that new players will run into this wall as the OP did, log off and not bother logging in for a week or 2. Skill tree needs a total overhaul from the ground up. I think it needs more parallel paths and less investment in order to move on to next tier. As it stands now its nothing more then a linear timegate. 

Dont get me wrong it need a rework, i beleive they do plan on giving it another pass eventualy you need to waste so much time getting random shiz u dont want or need for example the crafting basic speed line (Worst line there is) to get to like jewlery crafting :P (Should be split up tbh there so each line get crafting/exp/speed or what not.
But yeah there need to be more option with paths to get to the end and not have to get things you dont want to get there
Would like to see more option where you can take one or another but not both type thing aswell.

Right now the skill tree is linear and boring with no exciting unlocks realy.

Just saying there a reason they went with the timelocked progression was to allow casuals to stay in with hardcores players which i feel is a good choice in that regard (Even though i play alot) its just very poorly executed currently though


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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16 hours ago, veeshan said:

I think there passive skill gain system is in place to keep casual players on par with hardcore skill wise.

I myself am some what of a casual, I go hard when I get the chance though. The issue with trying to maintain balance between casual and hardcore with the skill system is that it hurts the Crowfall community as a whole. Hardcore players are the ones spending money in the cash shop and on the VIP every month, they're the ones at home all day streaming, they're going to be the huge guilds that drive campaigns. The hardcore community are the players that stick around through rough patches watching as all the casuals get bored or frustrated and move on to other games.

Currently the skill system is the only form of meaningful progression in the game. Your vessel is temporary, your gear is temporary, everything aside from your skills is perishable. This passive skill system as it is, with no active component, rewards everyone as if they were a casual. The hardcore community will be severely lacking or non existent. Why be hardcore if there is no advantage to be gained?

With the current skill system there is no drive for me to login every day. At some stages in the game there is an actual wall created by the passive skill system that prevents me from advancing my character in any way at all (this is the spot I'm currently in) aside from waiting for real time to pass. This will hurt server population, pvp contribution, and campaign attendance as we get further and further into the seasons. This skill system in its current iteration has the potential to kill the Crowfall community all by its self.

Players want to be rewarded for the time spent in game, the Crowfall community needs the hardcore players. At the end of the day the skill system is inherently balanced, every skill tree has a finite number of points that you can invest and within 5 years every player could have every skill tree in the game capped. That wont matter though if no one is playing because we all forgot about Crowfall while we were passively gaining skill points.

Edited by Asair

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5 hours ago, Asair said:

This will hurt server population, pvp contribution, and campaign attendance as we get further and further into the seasons. This skill system in its current iteration has the potential to kill the Crowfall community all by its self.

I agree. I don't dislike the system of skill gaining In this game, just how the tree's have been laid out. 

Already we can see the issue of player participation drops from spring into winter. This trend wont magically go away at launch. This can be mitigated by having multiple campaigns running, with each a different season, but this will have the net effect of drastic player participation in 2nd half of campaigns as players simply move to spring one to play. New players will start playing in spring campaigns, so scratch the thought of newbies replacing those that leave once fall/winter hits. Makes me sad just thinking about this issue.

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1 hour ago, mystafyi said:

I agree. I don't dislike the system of skill gaining In this game, just how the tree's have been laid out. 

Already we can see the issue of player participation drops from spring into winter. This trend wont magically go away at launch. This can be mitigated by having multiple campaigns running, with each a different season, but this will have the net effect of drastic player participation in 2nd half of campaigns as players simply move to spring one to play. New players will start playing in spring campaigns, so scratch the thought of newbies replacing those that leave once fall/winter hits. Makes me sad just thinking about this issue.

Im not logging in much myself for the simple reason is there nothing for me to do at this stage. I cant harvest any decent resources because im speced into crafting not harvesting, no one selling resources so there no reason to farm gold, and my banks are as ready as they can be fore next campaign. Since territory control system isnt realy in the game atm there not much in the way of PvP especialy during my afternoons when the US players are sleeping.
That being said though when spirit banks work how there mean to it may change that fact of nothing to do in the later seasons. eventually spirit banks will only be transfered out at the end of the campaign depending on how well your faction has done, This means there will be insentive to follow through the entirety of the campign pushing for those last few points for vicotory or defending your lead so no one can catch up to maximised your resource return from the spirit banks.

I do feel though if they add an achievment system that rewarded players in some way like cosmetic items or extra resources and things would work as like a more persistent leveling reward system and still maintain the gap between casual and hardcire that there wanting ti maintain. For example every 100 iron nodes somone destroy yield 20 Greens ores as a reward and 20 blues every 500 and maybe cosmetic pick after say 5000 iron nodes that you can put in a cosmetic slot to change ur appearance of your runestone picks.

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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9 hours ago, Asair said:

Currently the skill system is the only form of meaningful progression in the game.

This is a misconception alot of new players have - the passive training is permanent progression in the game, but I would certainly not call it the most meaningful. Have you seen any of the higher quality crafted vessels or gear yet? You really won't be able to harvest/craft everything for yourself, so not logging in to at least collect gold coins is putting yourself behind the power curve.


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10 minutes ago, miraluna said:

This is a misconception alot of new players have - the passive training is permanent progression in the game, but I would certainly not call it the most meaningful. Have you seen any of the higher quality crafted vessels or gear yet? You really won't be able to harvest/craft everything for yourself, so not logging in to at least collect gold coins is putting yourself behind the power curve.

Unfortuently for me no one selling what i need for my craft, since gems only drop from motherloads and only people going after gems or minerals atm seem to go after them there none entering the market that people dont need themself :P
Would like to see another way to get minerals/Gems that is soloable just rare drops, like super low drop of normal nodes or mobs. This way people who dont need them get them from time to time so you may see them getting sold now and then.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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On 29/9/2018 at 6:16 AM, mystafyi said:

The skill tree is so horribly designed in its current iteration that new players will run into this wall as the OP did, log off and not bother logging in for a week or 2. Skill tree needs a total overhaul from the ground up. I think it needs more parallel paths and less investment in order to move on to next tier. As it stands now its nothing more then a linear timegate. 

Instant gratification.  Minimal time invested.  Spunds like so many other games.

 

This is so far from the pitch of the game.  Things should take time.  It should mean something down the line not a day or two later.

 

 


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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I feel the main problem currently is that with the current system a lot of new players will quit before they get anywhere because it will take weeks to do simple tasks like crafting. It’s easy to say well people will get there eventually and if you don’t like that don’t play but that will just lead to a dead game before it starts which leaves us all worse off. 

I actually like the time to level system, but there needs to be some way to get into things like crafting a lot sooner. Maybe a certain amount of points to spend at the beginning to get 1 crafting skill started or something like that might work?

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3 hours ago, miraluna said:

This is a misconception alot of new players have - the passive training is permanent progression in the game, but I would certainly not call it the most meaningful. Have you seen any of the higher quality crafted vessels or gear yet? You really won't be able to harvest/craft everything for yourself, so not logging in to at least collect gold coins is putting yourself behind the power curve.

When I say the skill system is the most meaningful progression system, I do so because everything else, even the most powerful of the gear and vessels is all temporary. It either degrades over time, equipment, or can only be used for one campaign, the vessels. They designed it this way so that the player driven market works. Nothing you craft is a permanent advantage.

If you were to login day one of launch, create an account and set your tracks, you could stay caught up with every other player by just logging in at the end of every month to invest skill points without participating in any of the game-play. You could do this for a whole year, start actually playing the game for a fresh campaign, and be able to gather and craft as well as a player who has participated in the game for the prior year that you did nothing besides login to spend skill points and then logout.

You wouldn't even really be behind the power curve because if you waited long enough before actually playing the game, you could have maxed out a few crafting profession, gathering profession, and the combat trees. You might not have the same gold accumulated as some one who has played the entire time, but you could quickly earn gold from utilizing your crafting and gathering.

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1 hour ago, Soulreaver said:

Instant gratification.  Minimal time invested.  Spunds like so many other games.

 

This is so far from the pitch of the game.  Things should take time.  It should mean something down the line not a day or two later.

 

 

I don't want things to be accelerated to the point that everything we do is quick and easy. I just want to feel like when I play on my account, I am actively contributing to its progression. With no active component to the skill system, the only thing I am investing is time but it takes zero effort on my part to advance. I advance whether or not I play the game. It's hard to feel invested in a game where the contribution to my own progression is based solely on how old my account is not on how much effort I've put into the game.

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1 minute ago, Asair said:

I don't want things to be accelerated to the point that everything we do is quick and easy. I just want to feel like when I play on my account, I am actively contributing to its progression. With no active component to the skill system, the only thing I am investing is time but it takes zero effort on my part to advance. I advance whether or not I play the game. It's hard to feel invested in a game where the contribution to my own progression is based solely on how old my account is not on how much effort I've put into the game.

The payback for playing shouldn't be your skills… it should be the ressource you can accumulate and aid u in winning the campaign. 

The Skills imo have nothing to do with that.  That is a personal character progression set of stats.  2 different things which imo shouldn't be mixed together.

 

 


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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11 hours ago, Synns said:

I actually like the time to level system, but there needs to be some way to get into things like crafting a lot sooner. Maybe a certain amount of points to spend at the beginning to get 1 crafting skill started or something like that might work?

I agree that the crafting recipe unlocks don't work very well in the passive training. The dev team talked about adding an active way to get recipes - they showed a preview of equippable scrolls on a livestream. A system like that would be more fun for crafting-focused players, so they can start crafting sooner.


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15 hours ago, veeshan said:

Would like to see another way to get minerals/Gems that is soloable just rare drops, like super low drop of normal nodes or mobs.

Agree with this also, there isn't a good flow of gems/minerals in the economy currently.


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12 hours ago, Soulreaver said:

The payback for playing shouldn't be your skills… it should be the ressource you can accumulate and aid u in winning the campaign. 

The Skills imo have nothing to do with that.  That is a personal character progression set of stats.  2 different things which imo shouldn't be mixed together.

Only one problem with your post, The fact that time gated offline skills determine your resources accumulated and aid you in winning campaign. Its the only progression in this game and its flawed. We can wait for release day and play the I told you so game, or try and fix issue now.

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13 hours ago, Asair said:

You wouldn't even really be behind the power curve because if you waited long enough before actually playing the game, you could have maxed out a few crafting profession, gathering profession, and the combat trees. You might not have the same gold accumulated as some one who has played the entire time, but you could quickly earn gold from utilizing your crafting and gathering.

If a new player entered the game a year after launch they would be better off buying an old account or not playing at all with current linear skill tree. Must always think of new players when designing games or else have to change systems and/or hack in 'catchup' mechanics to fix broken gameplay shortly after launch. So many games have to do just this now.

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This game is supposed to be about winning campaigns. That is the meaningful progression. It is hard for me to be overly concerned with vessel training, and other things like population decrease through seasons, when we don't have this all-important design system in place. I know I stopped playing this version because there is no point to the campaign.

Edit: One thing that will definitely help is a normalizing pass, so that sacrifice values make more sense than they do now. Active vessel leveling should feel like a natural reward for playing more, rather than some arbitrarily strategic game (focusing on wood and arrows). All the values should make sense, and in beta, ACE should be very receptive to our feedback. There needs to be a simple, obvious multiplicative and additive set of functions for crafted things (based on materials used). Hopefully they can lock down the math needed, soon. It should be pretty easy, IMO.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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15 hours ago, Soulreaver said:

The payback for playing shouldn't be your skills… it should be the ressource you can accumulate and aid u in winning the campaign. 

The Skills imo have nothing to do with that.

 

 

Skill have everything to do with the resources you can accumulate towards winning the campaign. The more skills you have the more/better materials you can gather and the better items you can create. 

39 minutes ago, McTan said:

This game is supposed to be about winning campaigns. That is the meaningful progression. It is hard for me to be overly concerned with vessel training, and other things like population decrease through seasons, when we don't have this all-important design system in place. I know I stopped playing this version because there is no point to the campaign.

Edit: One thing that will definitely help is a normalizing pass, so that sacrifice values make more sense than they do now. Active vessel leveling should feel like a natural reward for playing more, rather than some arbitrarily strategic game (focusing on wood and arrows). All the values should make sense, and in beta, ACE should be very receptive to our feedback. There needs to be a simple, obvious multiplicative and additive set of functions for crafted things (based on materials used). Hopefully they can lock down the math needed, soon. It should be pretty easy, IMO.

To both of you, I can 100% see your perspective. The game should be about pvp content and winning the campaign. That's why I want to play this game. The issues is, after my 2nd day of crafting arrows and then hitting a complete wall in my progression due to the skill system, the game is essentially unplayable. I'm stuck at level 20 due to not being able to find enough green wood to craft the required arrows thanks to fall and my lack of time invested into the wood gathering skill tree. I'm also stuck using common quality intermediate equipment because I don't have the recipes I need to make better stuff or the ability to gather the materials I need to make it.

That's not a good system. I can't compete with other players that have more time in game and I can't invest any additional effort on my part to shorten the amount of time I need to catch up. This prevents me from even attempting to pvp and I could spend all day and maybe find 10 green logs if I'm super lucky, that should get me at least a little closer to level 21, but I still won't have access to any of the recipes I need to make better gear.

If this game is all about winning campaigns, why even have the skill system? Make the game 100% balanced and remove the skill system completely. Either give every account 100% of the passive skills or remove their necessity from the game completely. Yes every player would be able to do anything they wanted but whose got all the time in the world to actually do it? Lets face it a little over 4 years after launch every player, as long as they didn't waste any skills points, could have every single track in the skill trees completely maxed out. They won't matter anymore. The only thing that matters is what you spend your time doing in game. That's how it should be anyway.

If you want to spend time gathering to help the war front, go gather, no limitations. If you want to be a blacksmith go be a blacksmith. If you give every player 100% of the skills it will make zero difference because no one can pvp, craft, and gather simultaneously.

The passive skill system, in its current state, is nothing but a series of walls built to make you wait. Why though? Why should any player ever feel like they have to wait before they can truly contribute to war effort or play the game?

Based on the post recently there are 50,000 backers for this game currently. I assume all of them have access to the pre-alpha. If 99% of them have zero interest in participating in the pre-alpha due to the incomplete nature of it. That still leaves about 500 people who would be actively logging into the game to test its features and make suggestions/look for bugs. With a server capacity of 150 people on US-east, I have never seen more than 25 people logged in at the same time. That's depressing... In my head I imagine everyone that isn't participating in something they've already paid for is waiting for their passive skills.

Understand some of this is exaggeration, from what I've seen the "Campaign" is lacking objectives and some of the systems for the game arn't even implement. I'm not trying to be a doom speaker. I like a lot of what I've seen so far, I like the concept behind the game. I'm frustrated at not being able to play the game and make what I conceive as progression. 

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