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Asair

Leveling and Skill system suggestion

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Sorry to back to back post, but I was laying in bed and thinking about the Campaign system/skill system. Thought of a cool scenario in a campaign where everyone had every skill unlocked.

Let's say they add in a war-chest/bank for all three factions into the major hubs. This would be a massive bank that every player could add to; materials, potions, gear, weapons, runestones. All of it. When you add stuff to the bank, you get awarded contribution points. When you take map objectives or get pvp kills, you get contribution points. You then spend those contribution points to withdraw items from the bank. Essentially purchasing them.

At the start of the Campaign, everyone would be gathering together to stock up the bank. As the bank starts filling out with materials and crafted gear, the people that want to focus on pvp and objective game play could start withdrawing items using their contribution points to equip themselves. Throughout the campaign as a player I could login and if there is a lull in population or no objectives ready to take I could check the Warbank and see what its lacking, then go out and gather those materials to raise up my contribution points.

At the end of the Campaign, players would be rated based on the contribution to the war effort and be rewarded accordingly, with the victors of the campaign getting a bonus of course. Rewards could be stock piles of materials, or high quality crafted equipment to take back to their EK, cosmetics, plots for their EK. What have you. Their could even be guild and individual player rewards so that guilds can compete against each other as well as the players.

Without the passive skill system everyone could help contribute in ways that directly impact the war effort without feeling like they're limited based on what they've been training. A system like this could even be used to balance factions by providing a bonus to contribution points to the factions that are undermanned until the balance equals out.

As far as the VIP system goes, because I know money is important. They could adopt a VIP membership that unlocks additional premium cosmetics and emotes  throughout the Campaign season based on your contribution.

Edited by Asair

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1 hour ago, Asair said:

Based on the post recently there are 50,000 backers for this game currently. I assume all of them have access to the pre-alpha. If 99% of them have zero interest in participating in the pre-alpha due to the incomplete nature of it. That still leaves about 500 people who would be actively logging into the game to test its features and make suggestions/look for bugs. With a server capacity of 150 people on US-east, I have never seen more than 25 people logged in at the same time. That's depressing... In my head I imagine everyone that isn't participating in something they've already paid for is waiting for their passive skills.

 

To be fair, there is little reason to log-in and gather anything once spring/summer is over. Combine this with folks waiting for 5.8 partly due to ACE saying they are not going to change anything in 5.7 due to inhouse they are already on 5.8 and working on 5.9. I know for myself I am waiting for skills to advance to test a few things. Even at 3x skill speed its just too long to keep logging in everyday while waiting to TEST some functions and see how some things synergize. At current rates I will have to wait another week and by then it will be winter in this campaign. Might as well just wait till 5.8 campaign. 

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The best and worst parts of participating in "testing" for a long period of time is the cyclical nature of forum arguments.

The only thing I'd like posters here to understand is that regardless of your skills you will not win campaigns by sitting idly while others actively gather resources and control territory.


Hi, I'm moneda.

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3 hours ago, mystafyi said:

To be fair, there is little reason to log-in and gather anything once spring/summer is over. Combine this with folks waiting for 5.8 partly due to ACE saying they are not going to change anything in 5.7 due to inhouse they are already on 5.8 and working on 5.9. I know for myself I am waiting for skills to advance to test a few things. Even at 3x skill speed its just too long to keep logging in everyday while waiting to TEST some functions and see how some things synergize. At current rates I will have to wait another week and by then it will be winter in this campaign. Might as well just wait till 5.8 campaign. 

The missing piece you are not considering is that the materials that you gather in spring and summer are stuck in the campaign once the Spirit Bank becomes the Export Vault.   You will not get a thing out of a campaign until it is over.   The amount of your final export vault inventory that you receive into the EK will be determined by the final outcome of the campaign core win conditions.   Thus spring and summer are to harvest and gear up and put things into the vault, fall and winter are spent fighting to win and secure a portion of those materials.   We are testing pieces of mechanics with many placeholders, more than 5.5, less than a full game loop.

In answer to this thread, you will not be successful in CF solo, you have to work with other players from the minute you log in...  the progression only happens once so being at the front has advantages, yes, that is why we are here now as players AND to influence the development.  One key piece is the training tomes which would allow me to spend my training in specific trees to make specific tomes for that tree and sell it to you...  we cannot make these yet, but they will be a vital economic piece.   My leaving my VIP second  training choice ticking gives me an item to sell to you that allows you to jump ahead in vital areas you choose.   Basic Exploration tomes, Reaping tomes, Excavation tomes, Ore specialization tomes, Basic Combat tomes, Basic Crafting tomes.  How will you buy them from me when you first log in... make money in every or any way that you like to play...   kill mobs is one, there are and will be more others. 

It is extremely important to note that right now, at 8 weeks training since the last wipe on 3x design training speed, the player driven economy would not be selling those tomes cheaply.  The price would start out very high and drop as the economy and the average skills mature...   This is why a soft launch is planned, initial players join soft launch to kickstart the economy...  we don't want players that are not interested in this ONE TIME, short period where new players would simply feel behind in skills and money...   a new player joining with a more mature player run economy can and would supply ALL they would need at quite low cost, extremely low in fact compared to what the soft launch players experienced as they progressed. 

Joining a campaign in fall feels dismal because it is...   next spring, harvests will begin again.  So you got sort of left out this campaign or missed the boat on the 5.7 day one testing wipe.  It is not the end of the world, well it is actually but there is another one starting and always will be.   As a later joining player you won't yet be joining a Campaign with me and that is ok, I will be in the established beta guild world fighting similarly geared players...   you will join the campaign that features rank 3-5 nodes for harvesting if you are behind OR you could try to compete with the guilds when you join one or bring yours in.   The scaling materials are designed to target worlds to player game skill training progression which will correspond to gear and combat power...  Then in a matter of weeks you come out of an outer ring campaign much better off and looking to the next world choice, its rule module, imports/possible exports, its win mechanic and design for faction, GvG or FFA style play including loot rules.

 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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9 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Only one problem with your post, The fact that time gated offline skills determine your resources accumulated and aid you in winning campaign. Its the only progression in this game and its flawed. We can wait for release day and play the I told you so game, or try and fix issue now.

Kick starting the economy is something which -of- course is needed.  Something the Devs already have stated they are aware of and will deal with.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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6 hours ago, Asair said:

. The issues is, after my 2nd day of crafting arrows and then hitting a complete wall in my progression due to the skill system, the game is essentially unplayable. I'm stuck at level 20 due to not being able to find enough green wood to craft the required arrows

So don't level -edit- This game isn't about getting levels, that is a "sub-game".  U need to explore the game and the world and learn about it and in 2 days you've found leveling.  Ok.  Now go find the real game.

You don't need leveling to make things work, you need skilling.  

Having good gear (which is what you're suppose to be looking for) will beat having levels -any- day of the week.  So once you do have gear, once you do have skills, then pursue 20-30... 

Edited by Soulreaver

Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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36 minutes ago, Soulreaver said:

So don't level -edit- This game isn't about getting levels, that is a "sub-game".  U need to explore the game and the world and learn about it and in 2 days you've found leveling.  Ok.  Now go find the real game.

You don't need leveling to make things work, you need skilling.  

Having good gear (which is what you're suppose to be looking for) will beat having levels -any- day of the week.  So once you do have gear, once you do have skills, then pursue 20-30... 

That is his complaint. he cant level due to lack of time gated skills, he cant craft better gear due to the same time gate. 

You are basically agreeing with him that you cant do much without skills.

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1 hour ago, Frykka said:

The missing piece you are not considering is that the materials that you gather in spring and summer are stuck in the campaign once the Spirit Bank becomes the Export Vault.   You will not get a thing out of a campaign until it is over.   The amount of your final export vault inventory that you receive into the EK will be determined by the final outcome of the campaign core win conditions.   Thus spring and summer are to harvest and gear up and put things into the vault, fall and winter are spent fighting to win and secure a portion of those materials.   We are testing pieces of mechanics with many placeholders, more than 5.5, less than a full game loop.
 

I was unaware that spirit bank will be completely locked until the end of the campaign. If so, that would help with player retention on fall/winter stages of campaigns. 

I understand your points raised, but I cant help but raise issues that I think could or will be problems. To be fair, I care less about veteran players. I am pretty sure old crows will have no issues starting with a soft launch. I care about new players since without them any mmo not based on cash-shop whales will fail. I know ACE planned to add many systems and functions but after seeing many mmo's release with half-@ssed or incomplete systems I can only comment upon what is currently in game/being tested. 

I still am advocating for a total rework of skill tree and will push to have new players get a skill boost multiplier for the 1st week or so in order for those players to not run into a timegate wall. The first week of a player in an mmo is the most critical to player retention. 

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1 hour ago, mystafyi said:

That is his complaint. he cant level due to lack of time gated skills, he cant craft better gear due to the same time gate. 

You are basically agreeing with him that you cant do much without skills.

That is because the ONLY players that really should go through the full and painful early gear progression are those choosing to enter the game at soft launch when there is zero player economy, no market places and the ONLY route to take.  For players joining 3 months after soft launch the entire experience is far easier and faster to get to that PvP viability, that is, buy all of your needed base gear (for the current progression status) from someone else, wheel and deal... be enterprising, but just don't think you can catch up by doing the whole progression from scratch...   that is not how this works, it is a product of conditioning by theme park experiences of the past.   You don't need to craft your gear, you don't need to wait, meet some players and see if you can hang out, do some things, split the profits, trade...   the coin comes easily, far easier than the crafting or harvesting skills.

This is what he means, that your skills do not matter so much as the skills of the people you know, who is a top line build out, geared out Blacksmith? good guy to know, bet he needs someone to craft coal and carbon for him and will pay you for it, bet there is a jewelcrafter out there looking for cutting grit, embers...   you mean this water I pick up while exploring has value?  imagine that!   Who wants it, that guy...  those ladies...   we will have buy orders on our vendors soon.   Players joining later actually will have it easier because the demand for materials creates a market simulation that will not exist for the first 5-6 weeks of soft launch.   The game will only go through this maturation process once and then it will feel far more friendly to new players than it does in the beginning even if the only thing they can focus on is how far behind they feel they really don't know how much easier they have it.

Seven weeks into this test, 5.7, and the main faction guilds are in end-game gear...   that is pretty fast imo...    at 10 times speed your gear was outdated the next day... at 3 times base speed it feels like gear lasts maybe 4 days to a week before you can make better but that curve is already slowing.  For end game in CF that plateau is real...  By the third campaign we are facing off in gear we may not be able to easily replace, but we will have to because it wears out in a week so I am not gonna get much stronger and in just two weeks you could be wearing gear that took me two months to build up to because my leftovers are your shopping mall.   I hope you understand this piece...   catch up for PvP is only a matter of gear and it always will be, how hard you work and how long you take to get it will depend on your effort and how well you plan and understand the systems, not on how you spend you passive training because we all end up pretty near equal at a point.


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2 hours ago, mystafyi said:

That is his complaint. he cant level due to lack of time gated skills, he cant craft better gear due to the same time gate. 

You are basically agreeing with him that you cant do much without skills.

Difference is Im ok with the game at times preventing u from progressing and forcing you to act on the map going for poi etc.  Ot doesnt have to be a linear progression


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

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5 hours ago, mystafyi said:

That is his complaint. he cant level due to lack of time gated skills, he cant craft better gear due to the same time gate. 

You are basically agreeing with him that you cant do much without skills.

He can level without the time gated skills.

Find a group of players that already have the necessary components/items to help/sell him the things needed to level. If he is as active in the game at progressing his group objectives towards winning, they will certainly help him scratch that progress itch. That will become even easier as time progresses.  Active players are going to be more valuable than any resource, so the guilds that help new players are going to be the guilds that win. The impetus is on us players to create the core of the content. That's what conquest games are all about.

This whole thread is about missing pieces.  The devs have said they want more active progression, just not in the passive skills system. That is not the right place for it, because the passive system is supposed to be about keeping up with your cohorts, and continuously unlocking new gameplay regardless of playing time commitment.

If you take that out of passive skill training, where do you suggest ACE put it? It's one of the cornerstone pieces that ACE has promised, and 50,000 people and have backed a game with that core idea at this point.  Everyone that keeps cycling back to the "scrap it I hate it" fail to realize that there is already a significant amount of  20 million dollars worth of investment momentum in that system that other have put money down on saying they think it's a good direction. 

Trying to say that 50,000 people that put money into this game agree with you because they are not testing, is just being assumptive, dismissive and condescending. People have already voted for the plan and team with their wallets. 

It's not going to do a 180 because some Johnny come lately doesn't like it. Offer more constructive suggestions than "scrap it".

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 hours ago, Frykka said:

 I hope you understand this piece...   catch up for PvP is only a matter of gear and it always will be, how hard you work and how long you take to get it will depend on your effort and how well you plan and understand the systems, not on how you spend you passive training because we all end up pretty near equal at a point.

Then why have passive skill system at all if its nothing more then a linear stump that everyone will end up with? Let be realistic though, at the regular 1x speed it will take years for everyone to equalize. I understand your position that older players will sell skills(currently not in game at all) to newer players, but that wont happen until the older players skill up their main accounts which will take years.I can see this as being exploited by the old crows to skill up 2-3 times faster at launch further skewing pvp. This game is only in pre-alpha and many folks have 2nd accounts going already. 

You spoke of themepark experiences of the past and so I would like to mention that EVE online has a skill system somewhat like this game except this skill tree we have is a linear gated themepark by comparison. 

Catch up will probably be close to EVE online... buy an already skilled account. With linear skill tree its even easier to see this happening. 

Anyways, I can see we disagree on these issues. I hope your optimism is correct and things just fall into place. we will see.

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4 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Then why have passive skill system at all if its nothing more then a linear stump that everyone will end up with? Let be realistic though, at the regular 1x speed it will take years for everyone to equalize. I understand your position that older players will sell skills(currently not in game at all) to newer players, but that wont happen until the older players skill up their main accounts which will take years.I can see this as being exploited by the old crows to skill up 2-3 times faster at launch further skewing pvp. This game is only in pre-alpha and many folks have 2nd accounts going already. 

You spoke of themepark experiences of the past and so I would like to mention that EVE online has a skill system somewhat like this game except this skill tree we have is a linear gated themepark by comparison. 

Catch up will probably be close to EVE online... buy an already skilled account. With linear skill tree its even easier to see this happening. 

Anyways, I can see we disagree on these issues. I hope your optimism is correct and things just fall into place. we will see.

I do agree that i would like to see more exp levels being granted beyond 10 for farming monsters. or even hitting nodes"iron ,trees stone ect. As the nodes are basicly stationary monsters that can be hit with only a certain kind of weapon damage this would not be hard to accomplish. Hopefully we will get up to rank 30 monsters and "harvest nodes" that will grant exp. 

 

Edited by dolmar

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30 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Trying to say that 50,000 people that put money into this game agree with you because they are not testing, is just being assumptive, dismissive and condescending. People have already voted for the plan and team with their wallets. 

It's not going to do a 180 because some Johnny come lately doesn't like it. Offer more constructive suggestions than "scrap it".

That wasn't my posting.

As for your second paragraph, you can just look at the forums here and see its a point of contention even so early in the development cycle. Just because some early backers like a system does not mean it is good. I think most of us that get involved in early games have seen a vocal group push through terrible idea's. I am sure I could waste a day linking 100's of posting from different people speaking negatively about the system, but you know this.

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1 minute ago, mystafyi said:

That wasn't my posting.

As for your second paragraph, you can just look at the forums here and see its a point of contention even so early in the development cycle. Just because some early backers like a system does not mean it is good. I think most of us that get involved in early games have seen a vocal group push through terrible idea's. I am sure I could waste a day linking 100's of posting from different people speaking negatively about the system, but you know this.

Yup. People who seem to want a different game than what's been advertised.

 

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5 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Yup. People who seem to want a different game than what's been advertised.

 

I think you are mistaking genuine desire to see this game succeed by offering their view of different systems. This game has been in development since 2014, over 5 years things are sure to change.(thinking late 2019 release) If folks were advocating removing pvp or removing campaigns I would agree with you, but overhauling the entire skill tree is not going to create a different game. 

Can I ask why you love this skill tree trunk?

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1 hour ago, mystafyi said:

I think you are mistaking genuine desire to see this game succeed by offering their view of different systems. This game has been in development since 2014, over 5 years things are sure to change.(thinking late 2019 release) If folks were advocating removing pvp or removing campaigns I would agree with you, but overhauling the entire skill tree is not going to create a different game. 

Can I ask why you love this skill tree trunk?

I have both likes and dislikes of the skill tree.

The biggest thing I like, is it keeps friends from being separated in skills and ability to contribute to the group by in game time investment. That has always been a HUGE deal in MMO's.  Back when I was semi serious about MMO's, I would always have to run two or three different accounts/toons.  One was exclusively for play with a certain group of friends, and the others for when I was roaming around solo or doing PUG's, because if I played my group account when my friends were not around, I would make progress they would never make up, and we would forever be separated because I simply played more. I had friends that drifted away because they ONLY ever wanted to play one character, and if you didn't line up in activity 100%, they would be well ahead/behind, and simply stop playing or us playing with them.

Passive skill means the people I start with, or even don't start with, can play with me and remain functionally competitive. Even if they put in 10% of the time I do, they will for the most part be able to run with me when they do show up, without me being effectively out of reach.  If I am really dedicated, I will stock up on extra gear so as to twink them to keep them on par.  In fact, a casual player who is only around for the fights, may have exclusively trained into combat and even be ahead of me in that line, because I was splitting training to play the economic game. (Provided I don't use ATL accounts)

I also like that it's not much of a choice.  I know some people hate it, but frankly trolling through the skill trees to decide the path to go down is never interesting in games anyway.  Somebody will have found the best path and published it, and everyone will be using that. I equate it to leveling in D&D.  Some things every player playing a class get. Hit dice, Number of attacks, spell slots, feats, etc.  Some are choices like Paladin oaths.  The choices happen in the disciplines in CF, while the basics everyone gets are in the passive training.

What I don't like is it's messaging.  That because in some cases entire game play styles (E.G. crafting types, recipes) are gated by it, and in others it's strictly optional minor improvements (stat bumps). That makes its purpose confusing. 

There are also a few square pegs, round holes.  I think the whole Geomancy thing needs a deep look into.  EK Leggo is almost it's own game, so I don't really see how gating that behind passive training and gimping world winning effectiveness is a good thing.  But ACE can mostly address that with the new scroll/recipe mechanic, so I don't think it's at all urgent.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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The passive skill training effectively acts as a veteran reward system. Considering you can get everything else that your character needs through the the campaign grind progression (maybe not shown yet due to WIP stuff), and with caps in place, stats should be a great starting convenience skill training provides but should thin out in impact as players get geared to the teeth.

This doesn't equalize hardcore players with casuals as much as you seem to interpret. Hardcore players will be the ones gathering and putting in the effort to control CW. Casuals will not be claiming nearly as many goods from their exports even if they are part of the winning faction simply because time invested in game will always provide more tangible value than the pasive training alone. That being said, AC would want to ensure the system isn't so gimped for new players joining that it becomes obvious in any sense that their time in game without skill training will be a completely wasted effort.

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One thing to remember is this passive skill system was based on a game that had equal parts PvP AND PvE so it's implementation is always going to feel weird and strange to a purely player driven PvP game. They are trying to take steps to add in more active progression like vessels and the sacrifice system. There are also some other ideas coming down the pipe but we must wait to see those ideas. Be assured that Todd has said they want more minute to minute game play features. 

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