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Asair

Leveling and Skill system suggestion

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16 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Then why have passive skill system at all if its nothing more then a linear stump that everyone will end up with? Let be realistic though, at the regular 1x speed it will take years for everyone to equalize. I understand your position that older players will sell skills(currently not in game at all) to newer players, but that wont happen until the older players skill up their main accounts which will take years.I can see this as being exploited by the old crows to skill up 2-3 times faster at launch further skewing pvp. This game is only in pre-alpha and many folks have 2nd accounts going already. 

You spoke of themepark experiences of the past and so I would like to mention that EVE online has a skill system somewhat like this game except this skill tree we have is a linear gated themepark by comparison. 

Catch up will probably be close to EVE online... buy an already skilled account. With linear skill tree its even easier to see this happening. 

Anyways, I can see we disagree on these issues. I hope your optimism is correct and things just fall into place. we will see.

The Passive system applies to players for years, not just for the initial progression period that gets the complaint of not being new player friendly.  It distributes the power gains from gear through the means to craft it rather than the means to wear it (like theme park level requirements)… so it is to keep the power creep as steady for the game overall which feels good once you are into the meat of the progression. 

The conjectured issue about tomes being used by existing accounts to backfill powerful nodes cross account has yet to be implemented but we are assured something will prevent double dipping in that way.   We also should get the ability to train in two branch types of the same tree at once, Wood specialization AND Skinning specialization for instance as our first and second choice with VIP and our second choice may skill slower than the primary (we tested that for a very short time).   I would say that tomes may have some kind of date stamp that only allows the to be used on newer accounts or something that limits use to "catch up only", in other words current accounts  used in soft launch may all be "tome creation, no tome use" while accounts sold and used for the commercial push 3-4 months later will introduce the tomes and activate accounts as "tome creation, tome use."  

I have 6 accounts...   could have 7 or 8 at launch, 1 Combat/Leadership (VIP), 2 Harvest/Combat (VIP), and 5 crafting (non VIP), I have coverage for leading a large guild, not something rank and file players need but lots have 2 or 3.

 

Edited by Frykka

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6 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

 

Trying to say that 50,000 people that put money into this game agree with you because they are not testing, is just being assumptive, dismissive and condescending. People have already voted for the plan and team with their wallets. 

It's not going to do a 180 because some Johnny come lately doesn't like it. Offer more constructive suggestions than "scrap it".

 

18 hours ago, Asair said:

 

Based on the post recently there are 50,000 backers for this game currently. I assume all of them have access to the pre-alpha. If 99% of them have zero interest in participating in the pre-alpha due to the incomplete nature of it. That still leaves about 500 people who would be actively logging into the game to test its features and make suggestions/look for bugs. With a server capacity of 150 people on US-east, I have never seen more than 25 people logged in at the same time. That's depressing... In my head I imagine everyone that isn't participating in something they've already paid for is waiting for their passive skills.

Understand some of this is exaggeration, from what I've seen the "Campaign" is lacking objectives and some of the systems for the game arn't even implement. I'm not trying to be a doom speaker. I like a lot of what I've seen so far, I like the concept behind the game. I'm frustrated at not being able to play the game and make what I conceive as progression. 

If you're going to quote me, at least do so accurately without attempting to make me seem like some kind of villain. I don't do that to other posters and I ask for the same respect. Also in the very first post I made creating this topic and all of my replies have contained my own personal analysis of the leveling/skill system in the game, why I dislike them, and suggestions for improving the game. Please don't slander me. I have offered plenty of suggestions aside from scraping game systems.

I can see that we don't see eye to eye and that's fine. I made this suggestion for the developers of the game not the people in the forums. If you don't agree with them, simply move on. I don't expect the developers to just be like "Oh this guy, hes completely right" and just change everything that they are doing. I'm offering suggestions based on what I've experienced so far playing the game. I'm pretty sure that's why game developers do these tests in the first place.

Coming into a forum and attacking people for offering suggestions, even if you don't like them, doesn't help the developer and it doesn't change my opinion on the current state of the game.

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16 minutes ago, Asair said:

 

If you're going to quote me, at least do so accurately without attempting to make me seem like some kind of villain. I don't do that to other posters and I ask for the same respect.

 

Quote

Offer more constructive suggestions than "scrap it".

I was responding to this suggestion.

On 9/28/2018 at 6:39 PM, Asair said:

My suggestion would be to...

Scrap leveling your vessel altogether, this is a pvp game, all level does it make people who arn't maxed out more hesitant to join in. The game doesn't feel built for a leveling system, just remove it. Give everyone 90 attributes to customize their vessel as they please and call it a day.

...

Based on the post recently there are 50,000 backers for this game currently. ...In my head I imagine everyone that isn't participating in something they've already paid for is waiting for their passive skills.

I didn't intend to paint you as a villain, I intended to paint you as someone who is asking to scrap half finished (if we are lucky) systems and assuming that they are the major reason people are not playing to your volume of players expectations yet.

For the record, there are things ACE has planned and hinted at but not told us details about for improving the sense of progression.

Calls for "scrap it" is not something I react very well to.

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34 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I didn't intend to paint you as a villain, I intended to paint you as someone who is asking to scrap half finished (if we are lucky) systems and assuming that they are the major reason people are not playing to your volume of players expectations yet.

For the record, there are things ACE has planned and hinted at but not told us details about for improving the sense of progression.

Calls for "scrap it" is not something I react very well to.

Both of your above quotes are taken out of context. Either that or there was a misunderstanding.

The reason for my original suggestion of scrapping the leveling system completely was leading into my suggestion for the skill system.As stated in my original suggestion for the skill system, you would be able to sacrifice materials and equipment to then gain additional skill points. You can't very well gain experience points and skill points from the same items. I mean you could be it gets messy. Crowfall in its current state doesn't scream out to me a level your character kind of game. There is already an entire crafting profession built around creating stronger vessels. Adding leveling up in the mix just seems an unnecessary complexity. From what I understand the developers never intended for there to even be a traditional leveling system, I didn't play at that time but I agree with their original line of thinking. Leveling up in my mind is something you do in games with a pve/dungeon/raid focus. It doesn't help that in its current state the leveling system just feels rushed and isn't very well implemented.

I said 50,000 backers, taking in to consideration that 99% of those backers never intended to participate in the pre-alpha game, leaving us with a total of 500 players participating. My comment about the players waiting for their passive training skills is in reference to the 500, not the 50,000. I feel like expecting 1% of all Crowfall backers to be participating in the pre-alpha game to be pretty close to realistic, maybe not. It doesn't paint the game in a positive light that I've only seen a max of 25 players on the US-east server at one time. That's what I see and what I think man, if that offends you, I'm sorry. I'm not saying saying the game is doomed to fail. I'm using what I've seen and experienced as fact. I pretty sure as humans we all do this. In the very next paragraph I even say this: 

"Understand some of this is exaggeration, from what I've seen the "Campaign" is lacking objectives and some of the systems for the game arn't even implement. I'm not trying to be a doom speaker. I like a lot of what I've seen so far, I like the concept behind the game. I'm frustrated at not being able to play the game and make what I conceive as progression. "

I'm still hopeful for the future, the game plays pretty well for pre-alpha, but I feel like the developers want us to critique their game and their systems. There is no better time to do it than in pre-alpha where there is still plenty of time to change and adjust things. If we all just keep our thoughts to ourselves and just let development continue without giving input or making suggestions and the game flops on launch we have to shoulder some of the blame.

I'm not the type of person to think that my suggestions are the only way forward. As you stated:

"For the record, there are things ACE has planned and hinted at but not told us details about for improving the sense of progression."

It's very possible that ACE has plans in action to address all of my concerns for the game. I haven't gotten to play that version of the game yet. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make suggestions based on what we've seen so far though. There is always a possibly that a common gripe or complaint was over looked in the development of upcoming features, systems, or changes. At the same time its possible that a developer reading through suggestion topics on the forums has a wonderful idea  borne from what he read here. Who knows.

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8 minutes ago, Asair said:

Both of your above quotes are taken out of context. Either that or there was a misunderstanding.

The reason for my original suggestion of scrapping the leveling system completely was leading into my suggestion for the skill system.As stated in my original suggestion for the skill system, you would be able to sacrifice materials and equipment to then gain additional skill points. You can't very well gain experience points and skill points from the same items. I mean you could be it gets messy. Crowfall in its current state doesn't scream out to me a level your character kind of game. There is already an entire crafting profession built around creating stronger vessels. Adding leveling up in the mix just seems an unnecessary complexity. From what I understand the developers never intended for there to even be a traditional leveling system, I didn't play at that time but I agree with their original line of thinking. Leveling up in my mind is something you do in games with a pve/dungeon/raid focus. It doesn't help that in its current state the leveling system just feels rushed and isn't very well implemented.

I said 50,000 backers, taking in to consideration that 99% of those backers never intended to participate in the pre-alpha game, leaving us with a total of 500 players participating. My comment about the players waiting for their passive training skills is in reference to the 500, not the 50,000. I feel like expecting 1% of all Crowfall backers to be participating in the pre-alpha game to be pretty close to realistic, maybe not. It doesn't paint the game in a positive light that I've only seen a max of 25 players on the US-east server at one time. That's what I see and what I think man, if that offends you, I'm sorry. I'm not saying saying the game is doomed to fail. I'm using what I've seen and experienced as fact. I pretty sure as humans we all do this. In the very next paragraph I even say this: 

"Understand some of this is exaggeration, from what I've seen the "Campaign" is lacking objectives and some of the systems for the game arn't even implement. I'm not trying to be a doom speaker. I like a lot of what I've seen so far, I like the concept behind the game. I'm frustrated at not being able to play the game and make what I conceive as progression. "

I'm still hopeful for the future, the game plays pretty well for pre-alpha, but I feel like the developers want us to critique their game and their systems. There is no better time to do it than in pre-alpha where there is still plenty of time to change and adjust things. If we all just keep our thoughts to ourselves and just let development continue without giving input or making suggestions and the game flops on launch we have to shoulder some of the blame.

I'm not the type of person to think that my suggestions are the only way forward. As you stated:

"For the record, there are things ACE has planned and hinted at but not told us details about for improving the sense of progression."

It's very possible that ACE has plans in action to address all of my concerns for the game. I haven't gotten to play that version of the game yet. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make suggestions based on what we've seen so far though. There is always a possibly that a common gripe or complaint was over looked in the development of upcoming features, systems, or changes. At the same time its possible that a developer reading through suggestion topics on the forums has a wonderful idea  borne from what he read here. Who knows.

Yup, having the sacrifice leveling drop in was a bit of a surprise.  It fills a player type need, that of the achiever.  Achiever content is incredibly necessary to any MMO, and the passive system is not real achiever content. If your not a heavy achiever, then it's hard to understand the drive.  I've  killers, discount achiever content, and explorers discount killer content, and solo players discount the social content.  It needs a balance, and right now there are piles of missing pieces to the puzzle.  It could be that winning will contain enough achievement to satisfy that itch, but I seriously doubt it.  

I would say "unfinished" before I would say "rushed".  Sacrifice and XP is basically a playable placeholder at the moment.  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Yup, having the sacrifice leveling drop in was a bit of a surprise.  It fills a player type need, that of the achiever.  Achiever content is incredibly necessary to any MMO, and the passive system is not real achiever content. If your not a heavy achiever, then it's hard to understand the drive.  I've  killers, discount achiever content, and explorers discount killer content, and solo players discount the social content.  It needs a balance, and right now there are piles of missing pieces to the puzzle.  It could be that winning will contain enough achievement to satisfy that itch, but I seriously doubt it.  

I would say "unfinished" before I would say "rushed".  Sacrifice and XP is basically a playable placeholder at the moment.  

 

 

I tend to place myself in the Achievers category. I just want to log in and be able to make progress in some way. The leveling system just feels more like a chore than an actual game play mechanic. Crafting 1000s of arrows to level up doesn't seem like it would be fun for anyone but I do understand that the system isn't finished. Maybe when sacrifice values are normalized for all crafted gear it will feel better or with additional content adding depth to the leveling system. Deep down though I still feel like having some active component to skill gain would feel more rewarding.Skills are a permanent gain, levels just have to be reacquired anytime you gain a new vessel or start a campaign. That's just my two cents though.

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20 hours ago, Asair said:

This prevents me from even attempting to pvp

This part of the reasoning I'm not following, why not kill some mobs for gold and buy gear from vendor shops in the EKs?

Buying some advanced crafted gear would make you completely pvp-viable even without much passive skill training. Waiting until you can harvest and craft everything for yourself doesn't seem like a good strategy in a game that is specifically designed to make it hard for you to be 100% self-sufficient. Crowfall is a community-engagement type of MMO and the gameplay is mostly focused on the Throne War (and a smaller part on individual character progression). This is why I don't play full time atm, even though I follow development closely - I'm waiting on more of the Throne War aspects to get implemented. Adding more individual progression grind wouldn't make me login,  I can get plenty of that in other games. It's not what sold me on Crowfall.

Sacrifice leveling with arrows being the most efficient way is silly, definitely agree with that. Expect that to change once they get back around to balancing.


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1 minute ago, miraluna said:

This part of the reasoning I'm not following, why not kill some mobs for gold and buy gear from vendor shops in the EKs?

Buying some advanced crafted gear would make you completely pvp-viable even without much passive skill training. Waiting until you can harvest and craft everything for yourself doesn't seem like a good strategy in a game that is specifically designed to make it hard for you to be 100% self-sufficient. Crowfall is a community-engagement type of MMO and the gameplay is mostly focused on the Throne War (and a smaller part on individual character progression). This is why I don't play full time atm, even though I follow development closely - I'm waiting on more of the Throne War aspects to get implemented. Adding more individual progression grind wouldn't make me login,  I can get plenty of that in other games. It's not what sold me on Crowfall.

Sacrifice leveling with arrows being the most efficient way is silly, definitely agree with that. Expect that to change once they get back around to balancing.

I've tried browsing through EKs to look at vendors and their prices, I've found a few vendors that sell some upgrades for my gear and its true I could farm mobs for gold for a day or so to be able to afford them. I have yet to see anyone selling the green or better arrows or logs I need to get from level 20 to 30 though. That's a total of 30 attribute points, not including attributes and stats that I lack from being progressed further into my race and class skill trees. It makes the thought of trying to fight against other players seem daunting. I feel like I'm playing with a severe disadvantage.

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Just now, Asair said:

I've tried browsing through EKs to look at vendors and their prices, I've found a few vendors that sell some upgrades for my gear and its true I could farm mobs for gold for a day or so to be able to afford them. I have yet to see anyone selling the green or better arrows or logs I need to get from level 20 to 30 though. That's a total of 30 attribute points, not including attributes and stats that I lack from being progressed further into my race and class skill trees. It makes the thought of trying to fight against other players seem daunting. I feel like I'm playing with a severe disadvantage.

You'll be at a way worse disadvantage from lack of practice than you will from any level of gear.

The power curve is relatively shallow compared to your typical MMO, and without tab targeting not knowing when to do what in a group fight is going to hurt.  That's the design so players can play with each other at all levels of gear and skills. 

BTW, I can see the classic Achiever in your answers, being one myself.  Not wanting to even start without all the tools/training laid neetly out in a pile is a very achiever way to think.  The whole equipment decay thing is probably going to rub you the wrong way as well. :)

 

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6 minutes ago, Asair said:

That's a total of 30 attribute points, not including attributes and stats that I lack from being progressed further into my race and class skill trees. It makes the thought of trying to fight against other players seem daunting. I feel like I'm playing with a severe disadvantage.

30 attribute points is not enough to create a severe disadvantage. Lots of players don't even bother to get those levels. They don't mean much. You are psyching yourself out.


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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

You'll be at a way worse disadvantage from lack of practice than you will from any level of gear.

The power curve is relatively shallow compared to your typical MMO, and without tab targeting not knowing when to do what in a group fight is going to hurt.  That's the design so players can play with each other at all levels of gear and skills. 

BTW, I can see the classic Achiever in your answers, being one myself.  Not wanting to even start without all the tools/training laid neetly out in a pile is a very achiever way to think.  The whole equipment decay thing is probably going to rub you the wrong way as well. :)

 

While I enjoy pvp from time to time, I prefer objective based combat. Most of the pvp that seems to happen on the servers currently is duels. That's cool and everything but not really my jam. I want to craft. Part of it is an attempt at be self sufficient, but I've already picked out the crafts that I want to focus on, mainly necro, alchemy, and runecrafting. I did waste skill points on rank 5 leatherworking but that was when I just wanted to improve my own personal gear.  I know that I'll have to pick crafts to focus on so I decided to pick crafts that are aided by my race choice, Nethari. Idk the crafting gets me more excited than anything. I'll figure it out later.

The whole equipment decay seems annoying but I understand its necessary for the player driven economy. To hell with BoE and BoP. That's part of the reason I've quit other games. I'm tired of playing every day praying to rngesus for that one piece of BiS gear. I want to make my gear. It make take me 4 years but eventually I'll be able to craft and gather everything in the game on my own. That makes me want to play this game.

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9 minutes ago, Jah said:

30 attribute points is not enough to create a severe disadvantage. Lots of players don't even bother to get those levels. They don't mean much. You are psyching yourself out.

Your not wrong, but that's a deeply developed mental conditioning. I'm 29 lol, been playing MMO's since I was 13, that's 16 years of video games telling me that levels matter. Hell if you include regular RPGs its been even longer than that. Case in point though, that's a common miss conception that a lot of new players will have and it should be address in some way. Almost every new player is going to assume level matters and until they've learned better they're gonna feel the same way I do and be hesitant to participate in PVP content.

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1 minute ago, miraluna said:

AFAIK you can use gold coins to level to 30, get farming if you want to do that achiever thing!

 

Lol point taken, but god that seems like a dreadful grind. Don't mobs drop like 20-50 gold per kill. Maybe in a few more days when I can craft some stuff that people might actually want or gather some cutting grit/bones/blood to get a steady flow of income going I'll level that way.

I have the distinct feel that when I can finally start crafting cool stuff at the end of the campaign, there is gonna be a wipe lol. I'll be back to square one but at least I wont be alone.

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4 minutes ago, Asair said:

Lol point taken, but god that seems like a dreadful grind. Don't mobs drop like 20-50 gold per kill. Maybe in a few more days when I can craft some stuff that people might actually want or gather some cutting grit/bones/blood to get a steady flow of income going I'll level that way.

I have the distinct feel that when I can finally start crafting cool stuff at the end of the campaign, there is gonna be a wipe lol. I'll be back to square one but at least I wont be alone.

Tier 9-10 critters drop up to 250gp each.

Turn that into white mats at 450/100, then into items to sell in an active EK market, and you can make cash without grind.

I made about well over 30k over the last month just selling leather bits to make armor with. Yes, leather. The totally horrible trade given the current meta.

Pre crafting, farm cutting grit and hit the chat saying you are selling it. 500 GP a pop is probably reasonable.

If you know what to do and the market, it's not a grind, unless you want it to be.

Won't be a wipe till at least 5.8. That does not seem to be the next campaign.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Tier 9-10 critters drop up to 250gp each.

Turn that into white mats at 450/100, then into items to sell in an active EK market, and you can make cash without grind.

I made about well over 30k over the last month just selling leather bits to make armor with. 

Pre crafting, farm cutting grit and hit the chat saying you are selling it. 500 GP a pop is probably reasonable.

If you know what to do and the market, it's not a grind, unless you want it to be.

 

Thanks for the tips, do critters scale hp/damage with their tier? Or are they all the same, higher tier just makes them harder to skin?

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Just now, Asair said:

Thanks for the tips, do critters scale hp/damage with their tier? Or are they all the same, higher tier just makes them harder to skin?

Harder to kill, but it's not a hockey stick.  Similar shallow curve as player scale, and the AI is so very very stupid right now.  It's also trivial to disengage them if you know what your doing.

Just watch out for wandering assassins, and push to fort chests frequently. Only spirit bank stacks of 100 if you can.

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2 hours ago, Asair said:

I tend to place myself in the Achievers category. I just want to log in and be able to make progress in some way. The leveling system just feels more like a chore than an actual game play mechanic. Crafting 1000s of arrows to level up doesn't seem like it would be fun for anyone but I do understand that the system isn't finished. Maybe when sacrifice values are normalized for all crafted gear it will feel better or with additional content adding depth to the leveling system. Deep down though I still feel like having some active component to skill gain would feel more rewarding.Skills are a permanent gain, levels just have to be reacquired anytime you gain a new vessel or start a campaign. That's just my two cents though.

Maybe arrows sacrifice values is the problem then. Everyone feels obligated to crafts arrows to level because its the most efficient way. You can get to level 11 just by kiling mobs (I feel you should be able to level higher though off mobs).


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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Tier 9-10 critters drop up to 250gp each.

Turn that into white mats at 450/100, then into items to sell in an active EK market, and you can make cash without grind.

I made about well over 30k over the last month just selling leather bits to make armor with. Yes, leather. The totally horrible trade given the current meta.

Pre crafting, farm cutting grit and hit the chat saying you are selling it. 500 GP a pop is probably reasonable.

If you know what to do and the market, it's not a grind, unless you want it to be.

Won't be a wipe till at least 5.8. That does not seem to be the next campaign.

Cutting grits have been selling for 750 constantly because there an ass to farm compared to gold


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13 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I have both likes and dislikes of the skill tree.

 

I agree with you on this. Like you said, ACE will be looking at the details later in development. I am glad to see passionate debate on all sides of issues without getting mean spirited. We all just want a great game.

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