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PaleOne

A campaign win reward that would keep people playing--

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Suggestion--

 

I think the idea of limiting exports will suck as no one will want to play a game where you bust your ass and then lose half your campaign harvested mats and items ...

 

At the end of the campaign the winners get...

The quality levels of the items and materials they export advanced one quality level.

The losers remain the same..

 

What do you think?

 

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Different people are motivated by different things. 

Items to me are a means to an end - winning. I much prefer the notoriety of winning to getting items. Leaderboard, special EK item to commemorate the win, special cosmetic item skin only winners get, etc. would mean more to me than keeping items. 

Plus this suggestion just furthers uncle bob syndrome. The more items that are kept, especially if they're upgraded, the more uncle bob there is. Eliminating uncle bob so new groups have a chance against established groups is the best way to keep people coming back to the game, IMO. 

I hope this game is more about winning campaigns then collecting pixels that sit in my bank. 

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11 hours ago, PaleOne said:

I think the idea of limiting exports will suck as no one will want to play a game where you bust your ass and then lose half your campaign harvested mats and items ..

To elaborate on this thought - I think the issue lies in the amount of grind necessary to get established in a campaign. In order for the whole idea of Crowfall to work things must be more "easy come, easy go" than they are currently. It can't take as much time/effort (busting ass) to get established so that when you lose and/or the campaign ends it doesn't "suck" so bad when your items go away. 

Item centric games are typically PVE oriented. An item centric PVP oriented game is destined to fail. You'll either have to let people keep their items which will lead to uncle bob or people will get sick of grinding up over and over again. 

The underlying premise of Crowfall is campaigns that end which allows for new campaigns to begin which allows experimentation in the campaign rules to keep things interesting. The two things that can derail that are uncle bob and people not willing to grind up in a new campaign again. 

Edited by blazzen

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6 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Different people are motivated by different things. 

Items to me are a means to an end - winning. I much prefer the notoriety of winning to getting items. Leaderboard, special EK item to commemorate the win, special cosmetic item skin only winners get, etc. would mean more to me than keeping items. 

Plus this suggestion just furthers uncle bob syndrome. The more items that are kept, especially if they're upgraded, the more uncle bob there is. Eliminating uncle bob so new groups have a chance against established groups is the best way to keep people coming back to the game, IMO. 

I hope this game is more about winning campaigns then collecting pixels that sit in my bank. 

What I remember from SB and DF was the pride of ownership when looking at the world map--but that world map was permanent unless it was taken from us.. It was all about the ownership of real estate

I'm worried about a few scenario's for CF

1) Will people truly be motivated to put in the work for a temporary win condition? Would you be willing to jump through all the hoops necessary to win a campaign ( Harvest/ craft/ gear/ vessels/ Forts/ Keeps) if none of it results in a sense of permanent progress for your guild or character? Look at the current loop. Most people aren't even playing because they expect a wipe. I went through the trouble of creating a new vessel and set of gear.. only to find no one to fight...  If the only reward is more exports-- that basically means half your progress is wiped with new campaign if you don't win..

2) With multiple campaigns running Will people just leave early if they don't see a win as possible resulting in empty campaign worlds.

3) Will people feel a sense of ownership in a temporary world? Will they fight to hold territory? Will they care?

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32 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

1) Will people truly be motivated to put in the work for a temporary win condition? Would you be willing to jump through all the hoops necessary to win a campaign ( Harvest/ craft/ gear/ vessels/ Forts/ Keeps) if none of it results in a sense of permanent progress for your guild or character? Look at the current loop. Most people aren't even playing because they expect a wipe. I went through the trouble of creating a new vessel and set of gear.. only to find no one to fight...  If the only reward is more exports-- that basically means half your progress is wiped with new campaign if you don't win..

This goes back to what I said above - it can't take too much work otherwise people won't want to keep doing it. Character progression is largely passive so that doesn't factor in. Guild progression to me is solved by leaderboards. Others will see guild progression as building up their EK. 

People aren't playing right now because there's nothing to fight over. No win condition. Forts are largely meaningless when you can craft in EKs. Keep sieges are bugged. 

35 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

2) With multiple campaigns running Will people just leave early if they don't see a win as possible resulting in empty campaign worlds.

Yes, but I have this one covered. I don't think the seasons should advance based on time. They should advanced based on score. If the win condition is 100 points then spring would end at 25 points, summer would end at 50 points, fall would end at 75 points and winter and the campaign would end when someone hits 100 points. So if it's a very lopsided victory the campaign will end quickly. If it's a close match it will last longer. 

37 minutes ago, PaleOne said:

3) Will people feel a sense of ownership in a temporary world? Will they fight to hold territory? Will they care?

That depends on the person and the length of the campaign I suppose but IMO campaigns that last several weeks to a couple months would be plenty of time especially if it doesn't take a huge amount of time to grind up.

One good example is Rust which wipes servers every couple weeks. There's a sense of ownership over bases/items in Rust but it doesn't take so long to rebuild again that any loss is too great or that a reset is too big of an obstacle to come back for the next wipe. The biggest thing Rust lacks that Crowfall has is the goal of each server/campaign and that is the win condition. It's also nice that Crowfall will have fresh maps and changing rules/win conditions. 

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2 hours ago, blazzen said:

Different people are motivated by different things. 

 

This.  Rewards should have components that speak to each of the Bartles Types.

  • Killers will want notoriety, and for everyone to know how bad ass they are at winning worlds. So leaderboard data that don't require people go looking for them in EK's, monuments with their names carved into them, that sort of thing. 
  • Achievers could want the same thing as killers, but they will also want pieces that gives them something to move forward to the next CW.
    • Also Achievers like character advancement, so things like training tomes and such.
  • Explorers, perhaps a winners Discipline that has some unique exploration toys, like better map stuff, or fog of war, or even a 2-8 hour world joining head start token (crow form only) on a new campaign that lets them get a few hours ahead of everyone else exploration wise.
  • Socializers really don't seem to me to have a winning reward that could work, but I am not a socializer so I don't really get what they want anyway. I suspect it would be wrapped up in whatever other Type they were strong in.

 

 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Different people like different things. Truer words have never been spoken. 
I hope they are going to do the leaderboards with more than the combat aspect. More than forts and kills and flags taken. 
Things like Great Items made, Amazing items crafted, Nodes harvested, monsters slain. 

Winning should be an ongoing thing. Daily buffs for the leaderboard top spots. Small but effective enhancements to things that need to be done to make the game playable and livable. 

All actions should be counted towards the points total, not just the combat related actions. Spending time doing what you enjoy should help the war machine. Gathering, crafting and combat.  Actions in safe controlled spots should be worth slightly less than actions done in contested spots. Gathering on enemy lands should be worth more than gathering on lands your faction controls. 

Feed the war machine. Make conflict part of the daily game, not just a winter activity. Make playing the game actively part of the win, not just taking a fort or a keep when others are asleep. 

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The reason I suggested having the resources and items exported one quality grade higher

( green becomes blue, blue becomes purple etc)

is that Crowfall’s whole lore stance is that we are immortal crows descending upon dying worlds to pillage, plunder and fight over resources that are no longer available in our eternal kingdoms.

so from a lore perspective it makes sense that the victor brings home the spoils.

 

but it will be difficult to motivate people to keep playing in a losing campaign if they are penalized too much for losing.

 

so rather than 

“you worked your ass off and harvested 100 exports— you won- you get to keep all 100”

 

and

”You worked your ass off harvested 100 exports but you lost so so only get to keep half of them- get good loser”

 

Especially when under a faction rule set 2/3 of the server is in the loser category. ( which will be possibly worse in a guild vs guild rule set)

 

Better to enhance the winner then penalize the losers for trying their hardest to the end.

 

People won’t be very interested in doing the same work for less reward.

 

if I was in a campaign and it was determined that my faction was losing for sure, and another fresh campaign was available- I would restart there.

 

I wonder also what will stop someone from simply waiting a week to see who pulls ahead and then joining the winning faction?

 

I wish we would get in update on the planned win condition and reward instead of all this rehashed monster crap we already know about —-

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

This.  Rewards should have components that speak to each of the Bartles Types.

  • Killers will want notoriety, and for everyone to know how bad ass they are at winning worlds. So leaderboard data that don't require people go looking for them in EK's, monuments with their names carved into them, that sort of thing. 
  • Achievers could want the same thing as killers, but they will also want pieces that gives them something to move forward to the next CW.
    • Also Achievers like character advancement, so things like training tomes and such.
  • Explorers, perhaps a winners Discipline that has some unique exploration toys, like better map stuff, or fog of war, or even a 2-8 hour world joining head start token (crow form only) on a new campaign that lets them get a few hours ahead of everyone else exploration wise.
  • Socializers really don't seem to me to have a winning reward that could work, but I am not a socializer so I don't really get what they want anyway. I suspect it would be wrapped up in whatever other Type they were strong in.

That's a fair point. 

The trick will be pleasing all of those different types of players. Sometimes when you try to please that many people you end up pleasing none of them. 

At it's core Crowfall is about conflict and without the killers you don't have a game. 

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1 hour ago, PaleOne said:

so rather than 

“you worked your ass off and harvested 100 exports— you won- you get to keep all 100”

 

and

”You worked your ass off harvested 100 exports but you lost so so only get to keep half of them- get good loser”

 

I also think the rewards should be more varied, and focused on pushing the slippery slope/perpetual comeback paradigm.  

So if you win, you get the resources, relics, and other tangible items you can show off.

If you lose, you get something that will help you "catch up" and give you a better chance to win for the next game.  For example, training tomes, or level up tokens to sacrifice early in the next world, or a consolation VIP token, or more imports for when you enter the next world.

Given it's simply not fun to hang on when you know you are going to lose and get nothing, perhaps even incentivise player participation a bit during winter the longer you remain active (>4 hr play/week) , win or lose.  

Basically something that makes you feel like you have a better chance to win in the next world, and not so good that you would rather lose than win, or not so much of an advantage that it's unbalancing, and one that the material advantage the winners got can counterbalance anyway.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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6 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

This.  Rewards should have components that speak to each of the Bartles Types.

  • Killers will want notoriety, and for everyone to know how bad ass they are at winning worlds. So leaderboard data that don't require people go looking for them in EK's, monuments with their names carved into them, that sort of thing. 
  • Achievers could want the same thing as killers, but they will also want pieces that gives them something to move forward to the next CW.
    • Also Achievers like character advancement, so things like training tomes and such.
  • Explorers, perhaps a winners Discipline that has some unique exploration toys, like better map stuff, or fog of war, or even a 2-8 hour world joining head start token (crow form only) on a new campaign that lets them get a few hours ahead of everyone else exploration wise.
  • Socializers really don't seem to me to have a winning reward that could work, but I am not a socializer so I don't really get what they want anyway. I suspect it would be wrapped up in whatever other Type they were strong in.

 

 

 

Socializers win on the forums :=)

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After watching some of the livestream and seeing the new map- i have some hope--

But Im worried about all the blubies and crafters that are clamoring for their work to be recognized as part of the campaign.

If you can win the camapign by staying in your fort and crafting.. I won't be happy..

Crafters, if you want to faction to win, Craft your combat toons better equipment..That is how you contribute.

 

Campaigns need to be decided by winning battles and holding real estate.

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1 hour ago, PaleOne said:

After watching some of the livestream and seeing the new map- i have some hope--

But Im worried about all the blubies and crafters that are clamoring for their work to be recognized as part of the campaign.

If you can win the camapign by staying in your fort and crafting.. I won't be happy..

Crafters, if you want to faction to win, Craft your combat toons better equipment..That is how you contribute.

 

Campaigns need to be decided by winning battles and holding real estate.

Ohhh is the next map somewhere?

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5 hours ago, veeshan said:

Ohhh is the next map somewhere?

 

That sorta looks like an even-steven hand crafted map though, not one generated by a computer at the push of a button. Now if the layout is by hand, but the "Islands" are procedural, that could be the "next map", but my gut tells me it's a mock up.

 

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Would using the CheckPoint system from Ingress keep people involved? Every 5 hours tally points from currently controlled outposts, keeps, forts, and whatever other conquerable points there are. If you win that CP you get the reward for it; an export point, of fraction of a point, or whatever the campaign reward is. Possibly make each season progressively move valuable.

At the end of the campaign, bragging rights for victory are claimed by the team with either the most CP victories, or the most points claimed at each CP, but the reward is proportional to performance throughout the campaign. If your team can win at least one CP, you may not win but you won't get skunked. Your team may have failed spring summer and fall, but you can still gain rewards in winter.

The 5 hour thing works out well. Each game day is 25 hours, and game weeks are 7 days 7 hours. You may not like the CP schedule today, but it'll be different by an hour tomorrow, and by two hours the day after.

Edited by VaMei

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