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Jagour

5.8 Multiple Campaigns Import/Export Issues

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It doesn't matter how low import/export numbers are if you allow people to harvest on EU/Brazil, export those mats to an EK, craft in that EK, import those items to US-East this milestone will fail. People will avoid conflict to farm the best gear and just use dozens of alt accounts for the import/exports. Also worse than being able to harvest on lower pop servers is crafting in EK's in the middle of the campaign. It removes all risk of crafting and the need for people to defend their crafters or even their harvesters out in the world. It's an issue already and when gear will actually matter for winning fights to win campaigns it will only be exasperated. Please reconsider!!!!

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However, if those imports don't happen till the campaign in EU/Brazil ends and there is also win conditions changing export numbers it will not be the same risk free harvesting we have now...  if you harvest in EU or Brazil you will want to win that campaign to get those materials.    If you don't then the work you did is given restrictions by the win conditions.

So the current campaign in US East will never be affected by the harvesting in the current campaign in EU.   Materials will come to the EKs at the end of both.   Import restrictions will probably be a thing as well...   as we get better materials and craft in EKs those better items will no longer free flow in if imports are limited.   I also will not have the better items already made for the new campaign start... I just got the new material influx and am only at that point utilizing the better skills gained over the course of the campaign...   this really does put an advantage to doing the crafting in-campaign so you are utilizing those better materials as they come rather than putting them in the export vault.   This is on top of the bonus for using in world crafting benches that is also supposed to come.

Obviously the first campaign will be shorter like in 5.7 (one week)...   and it is likely all we export is full 100 stacks of white because even green won't be useful until 4 weeks in depending on changes to the skill trees and the training speed.   The several changes we know about plus more we don't know probably will make the low risk farming in low pop regions an obsolete tactic.

 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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9 minutes ago, Frykka said:

The several changes we know about plus more we don't know probably will make the low risk farming in low pop regions an obsolete tactic.

 

Honestly I am more concerned about crafting only happening in EK's still.

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44 minutes ago, Jagour said:

Honestly I am more concerned about crafting only happening in EK's still.

As my guild quartermaster/logistics I can tell you all of the signs point to it being more efficient to craft in-campaign for sure...   EK crafting will not help you win the current campaign being reason #1, Campaign only crafting table buffs being reason #2...    having immediate use of better materials as we get to the point of training where green items can be better than white is reason #3...  

It follows that guilds who set up to craft in-campaign (crafting vessels and gear) will get a jump on those that wait to export and get an EK set up for crafting.  

 

Edited by Frykka

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1) If there is no skills reset or if advanced recipes are granted more quickly (e.g. Making green level pips and +crafting station buffs useful)

and/or

2) if exports/imports are less than say 25.  (Or exports delayed to end of CW--was that in today's update??)

Then folks will craft in CW.  Without either or both of the above it will be the same it always has been for the 5.x patches--craft in the EKs.

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1 hour ago, Angelmar said:

1) If there is no skills reset or if advanced recipes are granted more quickly (e.g. Making green level pips and +crafting station buffs useful)

and/or

2) if exports/imports are less than say 25.  (Or exports delayed to end of CW--was that in today's update??)

Then folks will craft in CW.  Without either or both of the above it will be the same it always has been for the 5.x patches--craft in the EKs.

It wasn't but we all know that it was the eventual intention of the Spirit Bank to become the export vault...   If this is a part of the win conditions setup then yea...   crafting inside campaigns becomes a real thing and to do that you need a fort or better, the keep (if the keep benches have the crafting thrall buff.

 

Edited by Frykka

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I mostly craft in the EK. It just makes more sense.

Risk vrs reward is wildly out of whack, for crafting  in the campaigns. Storage is at a premium, npc guards are next to useless, crafting takes a goodly amount of time, and while taking that time you are very vulnerable and carrying tons of valuable loot. 

ACE can force the issue, while ignoring the feedback and have a nice warm poorly made socksstorm on their hands, or they can try and fix the risk vrs reward somehow. I would suggest some better NPC guards, or a chest next to the crafting tables that mats in the chest are used by said crafting table and if the crafter is killed and chest is looted like only 20% of the mats in the chest are available to be looted. 

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I`ve a notion @srathor that ACE have not yet started with balancing how strong npc guards are suppose to be concerning the risk vs reward, and I thought they mentioned to speed up crafting months ago? It`s an open world without safe zones as it should be like in old Shadowbane so when you`re in a hot zone and hunt for rare crafting resources - it`s more likely you will meet other enemy faction players and get attacked if you`re not guarded by other players. So when you are on the map which is less contested it`s safer and more l likely you will go unoticed, and some races are easier to keep a low profile kind of strategy related to harvesting & crafting. 

We`ve only tested faction play recently, but when you can`t import anything based on a campaign setting - it will develop an own kind of meta as well. 

Edited by mythx

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On 10/31/2018 at 2:25 PM, Frykka said:

However, if those imports don't happen till the campaign in EU/Brazil ends and there is also win conditions changing export numbers it will not be the same risk free harvesting we have now...  if you harvest in EU or Brazil you will want to win that campaign to get those materials.    If you don't then the work you did is given restrictions by the win conditions.

 

 

Another solution that does not require waiting till the end of the campaign,(which to me would kill much of the point of EK's being a sort of economic base), is to base the exports/imports active on in world participation.

  • Take a camp, (if you have no imports) to get an import slot. (Perpetual comeback)
  • Take a fort/keep, get an export slot.

[NOTE: That is the combat to get import/export model.  There could be a crafting/sacrifice model and special harvesting (E.G. hunger shard or wild crafting collection) model as well.]

Now to get an import/export flow going, you can't do it via ALT accounts, unless they actually play the game with all those alt accounts.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 3:44 PM, KrakkenSmacken said:

Now to get an import/export flow going, you can't do it via ALT accounts, unless they actually play the game with all those alt accounts.

Why couldn't I use 2 or more accounts to bypass import/export rules? I could simply trade goods to a mule account in order to use that accounts exports then trade it back in an EK. That way I could exploit having 1 account as a skill trainer for books to use on main account and be able to use that same account to double my material flow. If they offer some sort of free trial I could have infinite accounts to transfer goods bypassing game mechanics.

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3 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Why couldn't I use 2 or more accounts to bypass import/export rules? I could simply trade goods to a mule account in order to use that accounts exports then trade it back in an EK. That way I could exploit having 1 account as a skill trainer for books to use on main account and be able to use that same account to double my material flow. If they offer some sort of free trial I could have infinite accounts to transfer goods bypassing game mechanics.

Did you even read what I suggested?

The answer is, you get ZERO FREE  exports unless you participate in active parts of the game. Participate in taking a fort/keep, get an export. To use an ALT as a mule, you would have to use that alt in battle to take a fort.  That makes it pretty much not an ALT in terms of "Account I use only to get an advantage". Even even if you have 50 of them, (one player I know has at least 34), forcing the exports to all be earned individually and actively limits the utility of ALT accounts for export to those that actually engage in the game directly. Since people can participate in combat effectively on only one account at a time, a person could earn exports with the primary, or waste time trying to earn on a secondary just to export the goods the primary makes. In any case, they can not just get them from having an account.

Basically making exports a thing you have to earn in game by actually playing the game would eliminate the export advantage from having an ALT account. 

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On 31.10.2018 at 7:53 PM, Jagour said:

It doesn't matter how low import/export numbers are if you allow people to harvest on EU/Brazil, export those mats to an EK, craft in that EK, import those items to US-East this milestone will fail. People will avoid conflict to farm the best gear and just use dozens of alt accounts for the import/exports. Also worse than being able to harvest on lower pop servers is crafting in EK's in the middle of the campaign. It removes all risk of crafting and the need for people to defend their crafters or even their harvesters out in the world. It's an issue already and when gear will actually matter for winning fights to win campaigns it will only be exasperated. Please reconsider!!!!

I would agree. But currently I don't.

We don't have an efficient grouping system in yet. Sure, nominally there are a few guilds. Big enough that even in silent times like now they could arrange protection of crafters and harvesters. But the truth is that currently most testers are (or (need to) act like) single players. So, who is gonna protect them? Nobody can expect this to happen on a random base.

Imports, exports, rulesets, guilds, real economy ... those are all still things yet to come. Things that will change the picture of the game drastically.

As has been said often, we are in pre-alpha ... being defined as testing basic parts of the later game. 5.8 is not about poviding a perfect campaign. It is (for one big part) about testing the rudimentary background systems of multi-world campaigns and winning conditions. As long as we are in pre-alpha it is always about the backbone and not about the details. It is about seing that server-crossing transfers work in a timely manner and with least issues - not about how many imports/exports are allowed. The latter will change anyways and be completely replaced by the embargo system.

For now the only important thing regarding imports/exports is that testers have an opportunity to save stuff in between a campaign and takeover stuff after it. Simply to not piss of the small crafter/harvester too much ... who usually is NOT protected. And won't be until the according systems (like guilds) are in place.

And that will still take a few months. In my experience, up to now the most people complaining about these things are often those whining about not having enough victims they can crush. First they run around like wild boars, killing everything senselessly. Then they complain about the world being empty. Sustainability is a topic in PvP, too. Or should be.

 

tl;dr: In my opinion: There is nothing to reconsider. There is work to be done to get the last missing systems running that will complete the game (and solve the issue btw). Considering changes about temporary solutions for things that will completely change anyways ...  this would only be a distraction, only causing more and unnecessary delay. No, thanks.


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4 minutes ago, Kraahk said:

The latter will change anyways and be completely replaced by the embargo system.

tl;dr: In my opinion: There is nothing to reconsider. There is work to be done to get the last missing systems running that will complete the game (and solve the issue btw). Considering changes about temporary solutions for things that will completely change anyways ...  this would only be a distraction, only causing more and unnecessary delay. No, thanks.

I think that plan has changed to a version of the current spirit bank, and embargo may not be a thing. I just don't see them having time to put in that whole system without more delay and release pushbacks.

I just dropped that question in DEV to see if they will answer on the Q&A.  I think it is still rather ambiguous how that goal (exports and rewards based on winning) and keeping the EK economy cash flows going will be implemented.

 

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

The answer is, you get ZERO FREE  exports unless you participate in active parts of the game. Participate in taking a fort/keep, get an export.

This would have your desired effect of stopping alts from gaming the system, but would destroy the game for a portion of players that want to focus on crafting. Crafting is an active part of the game as is resource gathering. I don't see any way ACE will be able to stop exploiting alts to game the system without redesigning the core game.

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2 hours ago, mystafyi said:

This would have your desired effect of stopping alts from gaming the system, but would destroy the game for a portion of players that want to focus on crafting. Crafting is an active part of the game as is resource gathering. I don't see any way ACE will be able to stop exploiting alts to game the system without redesigning the core game.

Maybe it was in another thread, or maybe you didn't see it, but my position is.

  • Export rewards should be tokens that can be traded and sold and eventually consumed to add to the counter.
  • This will allow any player to acquire/buy/trade said tokens from the combat players that earn them.

Combat, aside from harvester ganking, is the only profession without a direct reward. If this is a PvP game, then shouldn't the real rewards come from oh I don't know, PvP?

Can't make it skulls, because it's too easy to fight club.  But ACE can make part of it export doobers that pop out when a location flips, or something else happens that relates to actually trying to win the game.

Perhaps they could also tie it into the hunger. 

  • For crafters a universal recipe that builds export tokens out of hunger sacrifice shards. 
  • Harvest a hunger shard in the wild, and you get the things that make tokens.

Fighting back the hunger is supposed to be part of the whole campaign thing, so I have no problem rewarding players with exports for doing that as well.  The issue is, it should be ACTIVE, and not something you get just for being you, or being on a winning side you didn't contribute to.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Combat is where gold comes from. At least for now. 

Set spirit bank transfers to 5 up 5 down at the start of the campaign.  Give 5 up 5 down more for each of the season changes to all players. Any others can be acquired one of three ways. Capture of keeps, forts, towers, and camps gives you a transfer token reward. Bigger the target the more they are worth up to a cap per season shift. The other way is through gathering mats. With the right skill gotten from training there is a chance for a token to drop that can be sacrificed to a brazier for a transfer (Either up or down, not both). and the third way is to make a token with crafting. Probably a basic pattern thing that uses a mat, dust, and gold to make. 

Again subject to caps per season, till a final win. Winners can get a higher cap but not by too much, and they still need the tokens to sacrifice to get the power to move the stacks. (Or make the tokens themselve give the power. x1 token to SB at a location in the beachhead x  tokens to power it from anywhere.)

Thoughts?

 

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3 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

The issue is, it should be ACTIVE, and not something you get just for being you, or being on a winning side you didn't contribute to.

I agree with you, but how to implement will be a doozy. If its too restrictive to a losing side, then that side will simply stop playing that campaign and move on to a different campaign. Cant hardly pvp if everyone is on the same side(the winning side) and once one side gets a clear upper hand it will be hard to flip objectives that are pretty much permanently owned by one side. 

Gathering, crafting and exploring is actively playing the game. Heck, even just running the beachhead and hanging out in EK's is actively playing the game. I cannot see how ACE would want to penalize players that pay for the game and just want to putz around exploring and crafting. Hence they will have to allow sizable imports/exports just for being online no matter what these players did to help or hinder winning a campaign. Maybe some players want to be solo and lurk around while their skills build up. The game cannot penalize them from being able to participate in utilizing a core part of the game, EK's. Since without import/export of resources EK's are pretty useless. 

Disclaimer: I hate the idea of instanced EK's. I wish they did not exist in this game or any other mmo with instanced housing. 

 

 

Edited by mystafyi

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43 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I agree with you, but how to implement will be a doozy. If its too restrictive to a losing side, then that side will simply stop playing that campaign and move on to a different campaign. Cant hardly pvp if everyone is on the same side(the winning side) and once one side gets a clear upper hand it will be hard to flip objectives that are pretty much permanently owned by one side. 

Gathering, crafting and exploring is actively playing the game. Heck, even just running the beachhead and hanging out in EK's is actively playing the game. I cannot see how ACE would want to penalize players that pay for the game and just want to putz around exploring and crafting. Hence they will have to allow sizable imports/exports just for being online no matter what these players did to help or hinder winning a campaign. Maybe some players want to be solo and lurk around while their skills build up. The game cannot penalize them from being able to participate in utilizing a core part of the game, EK's. Since without import/export of resources EK's are pretty useless. 

Disclaimer: I hate the idea of instanced EK's. I wish they did not exist in this game or any other mmo with instanced housing. 

 

 

Not getting a reward for not participating in trying to win the campaign is not being penalized.  This isn't a "everyone gets a trophy" kinda game.

This is also not a solo game, and it has never been sold as a game that rewards losing, or even just participating.  Sure you can do some things solo when friends aren't around or your being anti social (like I personally do many many times), but the objective is to get rewards for winning worlds. If you want to lurk and that's your play style, then fine, but don't expect the same rewards as the "real" players.  

Not much different than sports games.  The quarterback gets the best salary, the water boy has a job, and the armchair quarterbacks get beer bellies and angry at the television.

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Personally, I don't believe the export system will ever work like how the originally laid it out, as in you can only export after the campaign ends. The only way they can make that happen is if they add marketplaces inside campaign worlds where people can buy/trade harvestable resources, or auction gear. If they don't, and they keep the end of campaign export idea, then EK commerce will basically never exist, unless campaigns are only 1 week long. A functioning economy requires a flow of resources and capital.

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