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Vesperre

Shouldn't VIP training be baseline?

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So, VIP players, no problem.  I can train crafting/fighting or harvesting/fighting so I can enjoy the fighting side as well as the other 2 aspects.  No problem there. Personally I will have VIP on at least 1 account so I'm not the topic of this conversation.

I'm talking about the student who had to save his pennies to buy the initial game but doesn't have 15 bucks to spend every month.   Ok,  he can train only 1 thing in each of the 2 categories. 

If he chooses to train combat 1st, no problem he can join a guild, fight with a group, kill some R9 risen, make some cash and buy some decent EK gear.

The problem lies if he chooses one of the other 2.  Let's say I go harvesting.  I go out with my crappy pick and start mining.  Ganked.  Ok.  That's my fault for not bringing someone.  I bring a guildie.  He sits there for 1 hour why you mine hoping he can take the assassin that is about to jump you.   Either way, you are taking 2 people to do a 1 person job.  Not very exciting.  

(so I can only harvest with if I bring a stealth class?)

Let's say I go crafting 1st.  Well...I don't have any mats to craft with.  I mine slag/knotwood/cobblestone.  I can make terrible weapons/armor/tools but I don't have the harvesting skill to get me a good amount of green ore/wood/stone/leather to make things I can sell plus I don't have experimental points trained so the stuff I make with the crappy mats suck.  So I don't have a way to make money or get mats.  Join a guild, sure they can help you get mats but suddenly your best vessel is stuck in a guild EK.   Not very exciting.

 

What do you think ?  Should VIP training be baseline?

 

Vesperre.

 

 

 

 

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No

Quote
  • Misleading vividness – involves describing an occurrence in vivid detail, even if it is an exceptional occurrence, to convince someone that it is a problem; this also relies on the appeal to emotion fallacy.

The first core problem you are describing is related to the harvesting grind and its current level of requirement for all players to participate in it for any role. The solution is to add in more ways for each role to earn at all levels, not to dilute the value of VIP.

Quote

I'm talking about the student who had to save his pennies to buy the initial game but doesn't have 15 bucks to spend every month.   Ok,  he can train only 1 thing in each of the 2 categories. 

[Plus can afford a quality gaming rig, and picks CF, a social and other player interdependent game as his meager few hours time sink]

Also assumes "best vessel is stuck in a guild EK", when all the best guilds and crafters will be in world, not in EK's, because the real limits on imports/exports will be in play instead of the current over the top testing limits.

Active and successful guilds will want every player they can muster, and to have them equipped, for free if necessary, to win worlds. Especially promising new ones.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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6 hours ago, Vesperre said:

So, VIP players, no problem.  I can train crafting/fighting or harvesting/fighting so I can enjoy the fighting side as well as the other 2 aspects.  No problem there. Personally I will have VIP on at least 1 account so I'm not the topic of this conversation.

I'm talking about the student who had to save his pennies to buy the initial game but doesn't have 15 bucks to spend every month.   Ok,  he can train only 1 thing in each of the 2 categories. 

If he chooses to train combat 1st, no problem he can join a guild, fight with a group, kill some R9 risen, make some cash and buy some decent EK gear.

The problem lies if he chooses one of the other 2.  Let's say I go harvesting.  I go out with my crappy pick and start mining.  Ganked.  Ok.  That's my fault for not bringing someone.  I bring a guildie.  He sits there for 1 hour why you mine hoping he can take the assassin that is about to jump you.   Either way, you are taking 2 people to do a 1 person job.  Not very exciting.  

(so I can only harvest with if I bring a stealth class?)

Let's say I go crafting 1st.  Well...I don't have any mats to craft with.  I mine slag/knotwood/cobblestone.  I can make terrible weapons/armor/tools but I don't have the harvesting skill to get me a good amount of green ore/wood/stone/leather to make things I can sell plus I don't have experimental points trained so the stuff I make with the crappy mats suck.  So I don't have a way to make money or get mats.  Join a guild, sure they can help you get mats but suddenly your best vessel is stuck in a guild EK.   Not very exciting.

 

What do you think ?  Should VIP training be baseline?

 

Vesperre.

 

 

 

 

You can mothernode mine with someone speced into mining because you will be using all there stats in your harvesting stats.
Problem is mothernodes need to drop more because it better to harvest solo nodes than mothernodes for ore/stones


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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"I'm talking about the student who had to save his pennies to buy the initial game but doesn't have 15 bucks to spend every month.   Ok,  he can train only 1 thing in each of the 2 categories. "

Why should we give a sht? Games take money to make, compared to other MMOs, so far this one has been made incredibly cheaply.

I'm so tired of this trope. This is a myth. Now that student loans are so easy to get in the US there are no such things as poor college students, just dumb ones. 

If they are broke and need entertainment they can go sit on the lawn in the quad and watch co-eds play ultimate frisby in swim suits like the other idiots who blew all their financial aid on clothes and weed.

Now, if you are talking about people in other countries where the standard of living isn't as high, well, maybe they can get special control of their publishing region and get something like this.

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8 hours ago, DocHollidaze said:

"I'm talking about the student who had to save his pennies to buy the initial game but doesn't have 15 bucks to spend every month.   Ok,  he can train only 1 thing in each of the 2 categories. "

Why should we give a sht? Games take money to make, compared to other MMOs, so far this one has been made incredibly cheaply.

I'm so tired of this trope. This is a myth. Now that student loans are so easy to get in the US there are no such things as poor college students, just dumb ones. 

If they are broke and need entertainment they can go sit on the lawn in the quad and watch co-eds play ultimate frisby in swim suits like the other idiots who blew all their financial aid on clothes and weed.

Now, if you are talking about people in other countries where the standard of living isn't as high, well, maybe they can get special control of their publishing region and get something like this.

Woah....ease up Cowboy.  I was just talking about the game don't turn this into millennials need to get a life (which a lot of them do mind you).   In your argument why have F2P at all?  I played EQ and Wow and forked over thousands in 14.99/month fees.  If I didn't pay, I didn't play.

What I'm saying is Free to Play players will not experience the game the same way VIP will.  Maybe that's fine.  Maybe F2P platers will want to pay because the game is more fun when u pay.  I'm not Care Bearing it up.  What I'm saying is however way you slice it, paying players have an advantage.   Isn't that the definition of 'Pay to Win'?

 

Vesperre 

 

NB. On Millenials, they are products of an instant gratification techno-society and failed parental strategies.  I don't blame them for who they are.   We made them.

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1 hour ago, Vesperre said:

Woah....ease up Cowboy.  I was just talking about the game don't turn this into millennials need to get a life (which a lot of them do mind you).   In your argument why have F2P at all?  I played EQ and Wow and forked over thousands in 14.99/month fees.  If I didn't pay, I didn't play.

What I'm saying is Free to Play players will not experience the game the same way VIP will.  Maybe that's fine.  Maybe F2P platers will want to pay because the game is more fun when u pay.  I'm not Care Bearing it up.  What I'm saying is however way you slice it, paying players have an advantage.   Isn't that the definition of 'Pay to Win'?

 

Vesperre 

 

NB. On Millenials, they are products of an instant gratification techno-society and failed parental strategies.  I don't blame them for who they are.   We made them.

Also no. 

VIP is going to be a tradable token in game, so because it can be gotten without spending a cent, it can't be considered pay to win. 

If a money poor player wants VIP, put in some time and get someone with them to trade you for them.  It it could be cutting grit for example, which is time consuming to get, in super high demand, and comes from slag but you can get the training to find it in a couple of days. They will even be able to catch up by trading for training tomes, instead of going the VIP route.

You have constructed a scenario which frankly is a unicorn made of pixie dust. A no money to the point of not being able to give up the cost of a fast food meal, no time, casual player, who has the hardware to run this game, and is still somehow is dedicated and interested enough to be able to make use of two professions.

Sorry, but that's just not a common player, and it is certainly not a large enough market segment to throw a wrench in a major portion of the games financial business model.

Also, you "Win" worlds as a team, not with individual stats, but by beating other players.  I've been part of 16v20 fights where the 16's won. "Achiever" types tend to mentally think of progress as "winning", myself included, but those types are also the same type to buy VIP no matter what the cost, and to own multiple accounts. 

In reality winning is going to be more like a board game or chess than it is about RPG leveling.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I have to agree with Doc, in spirit at least.  Free to Play in my mind is a "trial".  They should not have as grand of an experience as the pay to play folks do.  I like pay to play players, because they are contributing to new development and tend to be more serious about the game.  Where free to play is only increasing expense to the cost of running the game in trade for some increased player base benefits.  I do not believe developers have ANY responsibility to cater to non paying customers other than trying to convert them.

As for the balance of the meta roles, here is how i see it (regardless of vip or not):

Adventurers make gold by killing monsters and spend it on gear.

Pvpers make gold by killing other players and spend it on gear.

Crafters make gold by selling their wares an spend it on materials from harvesters.

Harvesters make gold by selling their harvests and spend it on tools and replacement gear from getting ganked.

So, from my perspective, it is a very good balance across all the roles.  There is a clear balance for gold in and out.  When you apply VIP, you get the added benefit of dabbling in a little more than one role - but i dont think that means you are entitled to be master of both.

 

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2 hours ago, Linthu said:

I have to agree with Doc, in spirit at least.  Free to Play in my mind is a "trial".  They should not have as grand of an experience as the pay to play folks do.  I like pay to play players, because they are contributing to new development and tend to be more serious about the game.  Where free to play is only increasing expense to the cost of running the game in trade for some increased player base benefits.  I do not believe developers have ANY responsibility to cater to non paying customers other than trying to convert them.

As for the balance of the meta roles, here is how i see it (regardless of vip or not):

Adventurers make gold by killing monsters and spend it on gear.

Pvpers make gold by killing other players and spend it on gear.

Crafters make gold by selling their wares an spend it on materials from harvesters.

Harvesters make gold by selling their harvests and spend it on tools and replacement gear from getting ganked.

So, from my perspective, it is a very good balance across all the roles.  There is a clear balance for gold in and out.  When you apply VIP, you get the added benefit of dabbling in a little more than one role - but i dont think that means you are entitled to be master of both.

 

Sure.  Yes.  There is interdependence between the roles.  A vip is more powerful than a f2p and maybe thats how should be.  That's fine. I get it. 

 

Why do we need f2p anyhow?  Conversely why do we need VIP.  Charge everyone 15 bucks a month. Done.  For newbs offer them a 7 day trial.  If they like it then sogn up or shut up.  Works for me.

Not sure why sub games get a bad rap anyhow.  Contents better and the player base more involved (more whining too but who cares).  

Let's scrap the F2P model. I hate being a whale anyhow. :P

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Vesperre said:

Sure.  Yes.  There is interdependence between the roles.  A vip is more powerful than a f2p and maybe thats how should be.  That's fine. I get it. 

 

Why do we need f2p anyhow?  Conversely why do we need VIP.  Charge everyone 15 bucks a month. Done.  For newbs offer them a 7 day trial.  If they like it then sogn up or shut up.  Works for me.

Not sure why sub games get a bad rap anyhow.  Contents better and the player base more involved (more whining too but who cares).  

Let's scrap the F2P model. I hate being a whale anyhow. :P

 

 

What F2P model?  The game is required to be purchased by everyone. 

ACE has already included at least one month VIP with all but the lowest package to cover off on the early game passive training stall anyway.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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58 minutes ago, Vesperre said:

Sure.  Yes.  There is interdependence between the roles.  A vip is more powerful than a f2p and maybe thats how should be.  That's fine. I get it. 

 

Why do we need f2p anyhow?  Conversely why do we need VIP.  Charge everyone 15 bucks a month. Done.  For newbs offer them a 7 day trial.  If they like it then sogn up or shut up.  Works for me.

Not sure why sub games get a bad rap anyhow.  Contents better and the player base more involved (more whining too but who cares).  

Let's scrap the F2P model. I hate being a whale anyhow. :P

 

 

I am with you 100%.  I prefer to pay my $15 bucks a month and enjoy the full even playing field as everyone else.  #killF2P!

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5 hours ago, Vesperre said:

Woah....ease up Cowboy.  I was just talking about the game don't turn this into millennials need to get a life (which a lot of them do mind you).   In your argument why have F2P at all?  I played EQ and Wow and forked over thousands in 14.99/month fees.  If I didn't pay, I didn't play.

What I'm saying is Free to Play players will not experience the game the same way VIP will.  Maybe that's fine.  Maybe F2P platers will want to pay because the game is more fun when u pay.  I'm not Care Bearing it up.  What I'm saying is however way you slice it, paying players have an advantage.   Isn't that the definition of 'Pay to Win'?

 

Vesperre 

 

NB. On Millenials, they are products of an instant gratification techno-society and failed parental strategies.  I don't blame them for who they are.   We made them.

I don't believe there should be any aspect of this game free, but it won't be anyway it will be buy to play. The baseline should be VIP, and people should play to pay the game.

I didn't make millennial, so no, I won't take credit for their bullsht.

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2 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

didn't make millennial, so no, I won't take credit for their bullsht

Hehe they are kinda nuts.  Don't know why so many are on meds.  Good ass kicking as a child would of resolve that.  Kids dont even fight on the playground anymore.  What's wrong with this world!

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13 hours ago, Vesperre said:

Hehe they are kinda nuts.  Don't know why so many are on meds.  Good ass kicking as a child would of resolve that.  Kids dont even fight on the playground anymore.  What's wrong with this world!

I see the real problem is from millennial men. Looking at labor statistics shows the brutal fact they don't want to work, unlike female millennials. I can understand why the marriage rate is so low for their generation, I wouldn't want to be married and raise children with one of these useless men. I ran a restaurant quite a while back and I personally found that hiring females was best due to poor work ethic of the young men. Race didn't matter it was a male/female breakdown. Now I build casino's and find a similar issue, younger men don't want to work. It is sad, but the average age at a big construction site (1+ billion) is well over 40. Its not an issue with money due to wages being around 80k after taxes/insurance/pension/ect. 

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High Serotonin levels in boys.  The advent of gratification thru digital media (video games and web Porn). When i was growing up in the 80s and early 90 all we thought about was how to get muscles and impress girls. Later that translated to getting good jobs and impressing girls by looking like a source of security.  Things have definitively changed.

Women have less serotonin tends to make them more stressed out about stuff and less tolerance for being the suck. Makes them better child rearers too. Bettet workers. How more easily influenced and worry more about thier self image.  Hence all the girls are strong campaign.

Millennials are the product of the environment we created.  Thats why immigrant children excel at school.  At home their parents still kick their asses *(however these kids are subject to whole other mental problems) (i.e. stress of realizing their parents expectations.)

.

 

Edited by Vesperre

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4 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I see the real problem is from millennial men. Looking at labor statistics shows the brutal fact they don't want to work, unlike female millennials. I can understand why the marriage rate is so low for their generation, I wouldn't want to be married and raise children with one of these useless men. I ran a restaurant quite a while back and I personally found that hiring females was best due to poor work ethic of the young men. Race didn't matter it was a male/female breakdown. Now I build casino's and find a similar issue, younger men don't want to work. It is sad, but the average age at a big construction site (1+ billion) is well over 40. Its not an issue with money due to wages being around 80k after taxes/insurance/pension/ect. 

You are not from germany, are you? Because, I see the very same thing here. Might be a general tendency these times. However, that's offtopic. ;)

 

On 1.11.2018 at 8:27 PM, Vesperre said:

[...] the student who had to save his pennies to buy the initial game but doesn't have 15 bucks to spend every month.  Ok,  he can train only 1 thing in each of the 2 categories.   [...] What do you think ?  Should VIP training be baseline?

Two things. Teamplay and Decisions.

Crowfall is meant to be a teamplay game. Right from the start the devs said that it would be possible to play it solo ... but it would be much much harder. So players are encouraged to cooperate and discouraged to play on their own ... by the means of the game and the game systems themselves. It's meant to be this way. You can't do everything? Yes, right. You are not meant to. You are meant to cooperate with others.

Decisions in Crowfall matters. The passive skill training will be slow. The average player will need to make a decision where to go first. Eventually everybody will have skilled everything. But in the beginning we will need to specialize and find others who specialized differently, so, as a group, we can be successfull.

 

Of course people can circumvent some restrictions by for example buying several accounts or using VIP. But that's a convinience thing. Not a power thing. You don't get more power, you only spare yourself the necessity to cooperate. And even that only up to a certain point. You won't win a campaign alone. Mostly because ... it's not a power thing, righ'?

People do have different priorities in gaming, different things they like or don't like. In Crowfall you can focus on what you like and your decision will matter and make you better than others without your specialization. Why should a specialized harvester be able to defeat any specialized scavenging fighter? Doesn't make sense. But - if you want to be able to do it all on you own, ok. That's possible. That's the players decision, too. Won't make them more powerful though.

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