idoll

Love the role of resources in PVP... BUT... there is exploit

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So let me summarize my anticipation how I see things could evolve in PVP world and then I explain what should be fixed so that it wont be exploited.



RESOURCES & PVP - GREAT!

Firstly - I love your idea of planetside style of campaign PVP world map, where you move between the "islands" trying to conquer the world with your cooperators.

I also love how the resources play role in PVP and the idea how you play with winter making resources go more scarce.
From human history we can tell that once resources are plentiful there is usually more peace. But history shows also that when resources are scarce there are more wars. Heck - even the google AI started fighting each other when in their resources game the resources got scarce. So you are on point with that.

The faction / guild that can control the flow of resources and can wipe the enemy more of then than they get wiped  themselves will domintate the game when the winter season kicks in. 

RESOURCES BEING LOCAL:
I also love the idea how you make resources local so that you cant have "global" bank or magically transfer resources from place to another. This is also interestign in sence that if a faction has all resources packed on other side of the world, the war will not go too well on the other side of the world for them. Again - good system right?!

THAT BEING SAID ABOVE - THE FACTION, WHICH MANAGES TO CONTROL THE FLOW OF RESOURCES IS WINNING THE WAR

HUGE PROBLEM THOUGH
The resources can be packed in your backpack and you can just teleport away with recall.

This has to be addressed and we need to find proper solutions to solve this. Removing recall is a huge minus in gameplay experience, but something would have to be done.

So here are few ideas to play around with:
1. Make (some) resources in bag such that they prevent using recall 
2. Make PVP loot in bag such that they prevent you using recall for (x minutes of play time) (so for instance 15 minutes/20 minutes CD counte on PVP looted items)
3. Make all resource pickups have a CD counter forrecall option
4. Make each item you pick add x minutes on recall counter

Any other ideas? Throw them in.
 

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How about if you recall you drop your inventory on the ground as a grave cairn, same as if you died, but keep equipped items. 

Edited by blazzen

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In a test environment, I don't see a problem with Recall, but once the game is live should we have it at all?

I agree that having Recall available at any time is way OP for harvesting. Once I've got enough stuff that I want to bank, Recall. If enemy are closing in, Recall.

Running my goods to base should be when I'm most at risk, but Recall allows me to skip that entirely. 

As for war parties, if they get cut off, should they be allowed to teleport to safety, or should they be forced to choose between fighting their way through or hiding?

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It's a balancing act of utility.  Really the main problem is not with recall, it's primarily with the current volume of import/exports. That's making this look like a bigger problem than it is.

I think one thing not really considered, is that the beach head is not going to be a players main base of operation. It's a "Beach head". The starting point. 

Real crafters are going to want to stay in their keep, and use the keep chests for crafting materials.  Harvesters are going to need to supply resources at keep locations to the crafters.  

Properly designed, once in the world, you will not want to go back to the beach head except in dire circumstances.  Seen the new map?  That's just a mock up, but many areas are several gates away.  Imagine the total pain in the rumpus that it will be trying to get back three islands over, after a recall.

Now, I could see as an interesting twist on recall/export.  If using recall cost you an export slot, suddenly it's not free.  If you could recall regardless of export slots, I.E. you can always recall and can't go below zero slots, but every time you did recall if you had a token it used it. Then recall would only be used in case of serious emergency, and it would still cost you something.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I don't see the problem. The amount of time saved in recalling vs running back to the beachhead, or to the nearest fort/keep that you own, is minimal compared to the time invested to harvest those resources in the first place. If I'm on a stealth character, I can just stealth and run back, and it's essentially the same thing, other than taking longer. 

Factions will control areas and many people will harvest within those areas, enabling them to run back to a fort or keep quickly so they can bank their stuff. Recall is a nice way to get back to the beachhead quickly, but it doesn't eliminate the time or risk involved in gathering the resources, and in many cases it isn't the preferable choice, since the beachhead might be far away from the harvesting area. Storing resources at a fort/keep will often be much more efficient.

Edited by Arkade

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29 minutes ago, Linthu said:

How is recalling and exploit?

It lets people avoid the need to caravan their loot to safety, which was one of the core concepts of Crowfall.

Spirit-banking from everywhere, and safe recalling with loot are both bad for Crowfall.

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Ok, i see why this may be viewed as imbalanced or overpowered, etc.  But calling it an exploit seems a bit extreme.  

I view an exploit as taking advantage of a bug in the code that is taken advantage of...  something that is often a bannable offence in a released game.  

This is simply a feature that a player disagrees with (and maybe for good reason), but its not an exploit.

Guess this is just a terminology misunderstanding.

 

 

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Yep...   as a primary gatherer and PvPer and everything else like we all should be, I agree 100% that recall should always drop 100% of inventory.   Otherwise the prize will always get away.    Stealth is always an advantage in contested resource zones for gathering but when perception gets fixed that advantage is also minimal.

 

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2 hours ago, Linthu said:

How is recalling and exploit?

Well it is not exploit in sense that its illegal.

The feature is exploiting their own idea.

And the reason why its called exploit in the title is that the issue is kinda crucial. They need to pay attention, since this could have too huge impact in game play and how people would play the game. The difference is in small, large, huge PVP frontal fights. And the difference of events and lead up events could be enormous. In one the PVP is tactial and resources play big role. In other one the resources have zero or no impact, since they can just be teleported to safety etc. There basically would not be hug rewards in battlefronts to be found. 

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maybe the player should be able to keep his gear and some basic stuff like tools etc. but the resources should not be teleported

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For a moment - think different tactical and fight situations how with recall and without recall things could evolve...

ENEMY ATTACKING BACKLINES:
WITHOUT RECALL RESOURCE TRANSFER:
Enemy forces are pushing far backlines in enemy gathering areas. Taking out convoys and resource farmers they get huge amount of resources. The defenders are able to retaliate on enemys way back to home. They go out and go hunt the attackers. They manage to save most of the resources and slay half of the attackers.
WITH RECALL RESOURCE TRANSFER:
Enemy tries to attack far backlines in enemy gathering areas. Someone in general chat warned everyone and all resources were instantly recalled to base. The attack scattered away and there was not significant PVP fights, since there was no prize to win.

ENEMY SURROUNDS YOUR MIDDLE ISLAND:
WITHOUT RECALL RESOURCE TRANSFER:

This is it - its all or nothing. We can not get new resources for the defence - we will fight till the bitter end. All resources banked in the base could potentially be taken by the attackers. But the best thing we can do now is to defend them to the last man. Some special ops were able to sneak away with bit of resources and hid them to the mountains. We fought like warriors. Defended to the last man! But eventually we ran out of men and resources - we got overrun. Enemy got bunch of rare resouces, which was huge win in their campaign.
WITH RECALL RESOURCE TRANSFER:
Enemy took over our back and we lost the connection to our main area! We could potentially lose tons of resources with the base. But no worries. When we are about to fall we just recall away with the most precious stuff. Well actually the most precious stuff left the place long ago...

well... the same way - try to think a scenario and think how things would evolve with and without the recall.



 

Edited by idoll

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Quote

 

"Hey guys, want to go out and hunt some harvesters?"

"Nah, even if we find someone they'll just recall"

 

Recall and spirit banking in the field demotivate world pvp.

And while it may not seem like such a big deal with routine harvesting, if anyone ever loots anything that is extremely valuable they will spirit bank or recall instantly. That removes some potential high-excitement gameplay from the game.

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Recall can work fine. It almost worked well in SB, and in that game we also had summoning.

Make it loud, long cool-down, long cast time. Simple as that. I am disappointed that the first implementation did not meet those criteria already.

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11 minutes ago, McTan said:

Recall can work fine. It almost worked well in SB, and in that game we also had summoning.

Make it loud, long cool-down, long cast time. Simple as that. I am disappointed that the first implementation did not meet those criteria already.

I would disagree that Recall worked well in SB. It discouraged world pvp. Rather than seeing farming as a driver of pvp, it was often considered a chore that was entirely separate from pvp. People just recalled if anyone showed up on track, instantly recalled if they ever looted anything exceptionally valuable, and it detracted considerably from world pvp.

Looting is fun. Mechanics that make looting unlikely to happen are bad.

I would agree that if Recall stays in the game it should be loud, long cool down, and long cast time. How about if it makes a light-beam to the sky like over the runegates? And takes at least 30 seconds to cast?

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Just now, Jah said:

I would disagree that Recall worked well in SB. It discouraged world pvp. Rather than seeing farming as a driver of pvp, it was often considered a chore that was entirely separate from pvp. People just recalled if anyone showed up on track, instantly recalled if they ever looted anything exceptionally valuable, and it detracted considerably from world pvp.

Looting is fun. Mechanics that make looting unlikely to happen are bad.

I would agree that if Recall stays in the game it should be loud, long cool down, and long cast time. How about if it makes a light-beam to the sky like over the runegates? And takes at least 30 seconds to cast?

Also needs to be interruptible by any amount of damage at the very least.  Having someone pop off because you didn't full kill them with the current TTK is ... disappointing.

Would not mind if it had to be used at a camp you control, in the state of "resting", as another way to add value to camps.  Would kinda break it as a way to get out from terrain hitches and stuff.  Perhaps a really long cast time if out in the wild (120 seconds or more), and a shorter one if your at camp.

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7 minutes ago, Jah said:

I would disagree that Recall worked well in SB. It discouraged world pvp. Rather than seeing farming as a driver of pvp, it was often considered a chore that was entirely separate from pvp. People just recalled if anyone showed up on track, instantly recalled if they ever looted anything exceptionally valuable, and it detracted considerably from world pvp.

Looting is fun. Mechanics that make looting unlikely to happen are bad.

I would agree that if Recall stays in the game it should be loud, long cool down, and long cast time. How about if it makes a light-beam to the sky like over the runegates? And takes at least 30 seconds to cast?

I agree with your opinion on Recall, but I disagree that it didn't work as intended in SB. The point is to give people who are harvesting the opportunity to return to safety that balances with the threat of death and loss. I want there to be more risk, but I also don't want fast travel of any kind, any recall mechanic, any summoning mechanic, and any long-term speed or stealth mechanics.

I'm not going to get those, and we are not going to get no recall in Crowfall. So, sadly, the best we can get is a Recall that is not OP.

Edit: A LOT depends on track, and if that mechanic ever really makes it into CF.

Edited by McTan

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Personally I liked the way Darkfall handled Recall...it was a LONG cast with a LONG CD (120s with 60m CD) 

20s logout timer is also problematic

Edited by Scorn

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I kind of assumed recall capabilities would be controlled by the campaign? Has ACE not spoke about it yet?

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14 hours ago, idoll said:


well... the same way - try to think a scenario and think how things would evolve with and without the recall.
 

With a very long recall time or no recall and no access to spirit bank outside the beachhead could simply make alt-f4 while stealthed the way to escape from an incoming army for resource gatherers. This will also push gatherers into stealth classes for obvious reasons.

It will give incentive for gatherers to farm on low population campaigns, funnel resources into EK's for production. 

 

Static instanced EK's with multiple campaigns are the problem. I wish ACE would delete them from game design, but I realize its way to late.

 

EDIT: holy heck! I was not instalogged from forums. last week was insane.

Edited by mystafyi

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