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idoll

Super annoying things

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He is part of the mmolite group that scream ME! These people want the whole experience to be about them and what they want; not what is good for the game or makes sense logistically. If you don't want to put any effort into your character and playing the game then why even play mmorpgs?

These are the people that plagued the genre for so long since WoW hit the market; non mmorpg players that want instant gratification.

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1 hour ago, IsilithTehroth said:

He is part of the mmolite group that scream ME! These people want the whole experience to be about them and what they want; not what is good for the game or makes sense logistically. If you don't want to put any effort into your character and playing the game then why even play mmorpgs?

These are the people that plagued the genre for so long since WoW hit the market; non mmorpg players that want instant gratification.

Its a whole generation of folks, not simply a group of gamers. This is going to become the new normal as they age and teach their children those same values. Not marketing to these folks is pretty bad for the bottom line of most any business. 

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Lmao right frykka is a wealth of knowledge tbh. I would absolutely love to smash your guild!:) I believe the other guilds need some fresh meat too. Then again noobs aren't that satisfying of a meal anyways :/ But frykka definitely knows what he's talking about. You should try to understand what he is saying before just regurgitating your own inner monologue pertaining to Crowfall. Your little bit of time played is a drop in the ocean compared to some of these guys man. You should totally take the time to learn from them.  @idoll

Edited by SoberSoul
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1 hour ago, Marth said:

 

13 post and knows about CF more than frykka.

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Rico, Manual! 
See the source image
 


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Are we just another toxic PvP community as the PvE crowd so often claims?

Nah, it's all fun and games until somebody loses their epeen.


I think this thread may be stretched to its limits.

"And that was the end of my religious experience" ~ Little Big Man

Edited by Frykka

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On 11/13/2018 at 7:27 PM, Frykka said:

Are we just another toxic PvP community as the PvE crowd so often claims?

Nah, it's all fun and games until somebody loses their epeen.


I think this thread may be stretched to its limits.

"And that was the end of my religious experience" ~ Little Big Man

That notion is a fallacy anyways. Generally the pve crowd claim pvp players are toxic no matter what because in a game like this it interferes with their playstyle. I am sure they would consider someone killing them, stopping resources towards their faction's develop, as ganking and dishonorable. I mean being upset about pvp a pvp based mmorpg is just asinine. If you wanted a toxic pvp community; you should have seen Darkfall online back in its prelaunch/prime. Now that was bad.

Epeen will always be a thing in a territory control mmo, but I think it adds fuel to rivalries

Edited by IsilithTehroth

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To be honest i find the new harvesting und runecrafting thing also very annoying as it is now. In the past you could craft runetools everywhere and you needed a lot of them now its all about running back and forth get to the workbench make a bunch hope you don`t be killed and looted and so on. And for basic tools its horrible like 1/3 of resources you harvest go into craftig tools. Why is that so its like toolmaking simulater. This was for me some reason to stop palying the game for a while. It would be better if tools still decay but don`t break or so, so you can still use them but with penalty until you repair or make a new one maybe.

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15 hours ago, Jubenei said:

To be honest i find the new harvesting und runecrafting thing also very annoying as it is now. In the past you could craft runetools everywhere and you needed a lot of them now its all about running back and forth get to the workbench make a bunch hope you don`t be killed and looted and so on. And for basic tools its horrible like 1/3 of resources you harvest go into craftig tools. Why is that so its like toolmaking simulater. This was for me some reason to stop palying the game for a while. It would be better if tools still decay but don`t break or so, so you can still use them but with penalty until you repair or make a new one maybe.

It's not new, been in the game from the very first big world.   In fact basic tools would wear out much faster on basic resources when they took 6-7 hits each instead of just the 3 hits it takes now.   It is a matter of having the training and if not at least using the Villein passive...   It works exactly as intended and if you are a runecrafter you not only have all the good tools, you have a marketable product to make bank to buy middling gear.


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You can defend it, but i think its just bad design decission. I mean to get to runetools you also need a workbench, wherefore you need a stonemason and have to place it somewhere in your EK. Then you need to import/export stuff. I think there is a limit to import/exports from the spirit bank and so on. Why make it so for something you need all the time if you focus on gathering?

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5 hours ago, Jubenei said:

 I mean to get to runetools you also need a workbench, wherefore you need a stonemason and have to place it somewhere in your EK. Then you need to import/export stuff. I think there is a limit to import/exports from the spirit bank and so on. Why make it so for something you need all the time if you focus on gathering?

Except you dont need a stone mason and you dont need to waste imports/exports, you just need to control the keep (which is probably still bugged, but when fixed shouldnt be an issue) or the Fort that has the rune table (Their is always at least 1 fort that has one in every campaing). And with 5.8 on the way with the multi-cluster maps, if each of the siege islands (the ones with the keep icons, at least thats what im calling them for now, or possibly even the "large islands" as i dont know how much will be on a "large" island) if each siege island (or large) has the standard set up of 1 Keep 3 Forts then it will be even easier to keep hold of a keep or at least the 1 fort with a rune table closest to your factions main runegate.

In response to the OPs mention previously about infinite durability basic tools. Basic tools are made the way they are cause they dont want people getting just enough mitigation for a node to be able to harvest rank 9/10 nodes doing 1 damage at a time and just sitting there with left click held down until the node finally pops because if they had infinite durability thats exactly what would happen most of the time. Also because while nothing will stop botters from finding a way into the game it makes it an extra layer of work for a bot to change out tools every time one breaks and also stops the bot from doing the above mentioned 1 damage only spam harvesting. So two birds with one stone.

And also like others have said if someone is planning on going the harvesting route, then work your skill training to the decay reduction nodes and run Villein and pair it with Survivalist to boost your damage output to nodes so your useing less total hits to finish off nodes. And if they are not going the harvesting route its their job to either find a supplier of decent tools to make whatever minimal amount of harvesting you do bearable or they can piddle around with basic tools forever and if thats the route they choose then they accept that they will be using low durability tools that need to be replaced pretty consistantly. This game isnt for people who want to avoid networking with other players. 

Albeit i will concede that in comparison to literally every other thing you craft (that isnt consumable) tools have a way shorter life span, saying something along the lines that basic and rune tools could probably use a durability boost to last a bit longer would probably be agreeable to most people but thats only because almost every other crafted item in the game has such high staying power.

A set of armor can literally last you a month+. Before decay changes i literally used the same armor for 3 campaigns and it was hand-me-down armor from one of my guild mates, and it still didnt break i just got better armor and replaced it. But once the change to decay came in i still was able to use one set through 2 campaigns (although my active play time was like half of normal at this time) and only the boots got low enough on durability to me to even start worrying about it (that armor might still be in my SB now that i think about it). Vessels are going to last forever now apparently. Accessories only take durability hits on death as opposed to constantly ticking down while in combat stance like armor, so they can also last a while. Weapons exist in the same space as armor.

So giving tools a boost so they can at least get you through an hour or so of harvesting (without decay bonuses) wouldnt be to bad of a idea and would mitigate some of the frustration that lazy people will have when dealing with tools.

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On 13.11.2018 at 7:32 PM, IsilithTehroth said:

He is part of the mmolite group that scream ME! These people want the whole experience to be about them and what they want; not what is good for the game or makes sense logistically. If you don't want to put any effort into your character and playing the game then why even play mmorpgs?

These are the people that plagued the genre for so long since WoW hit the market; non mmorpg players that want instant gratification.

I think we value something higher if we worked hard and "earned" it. But there is a difference between doing a great job building a masterpiece and being stuck behind a time gate with a braindead zombie task. We don´t want "instant gratification". We just want to spend our time on something meaningful.

Compare this to RL hobbies: There is a spot for your favorite hobby right behind your house and an equally good spot on the other side of the city. Which spot would you pick? Noone would pick the traveltime to feel the happyness ramp up. On the other hand: We tend to choose the easy way which might let us miss some opportunities. So it´s the job of a game designer to find the right proportion of pain and gain. And make the painful part enjoyable. Remember, it´s still a game.

In a virtual environment we could get everything as instant gratification like WoW does it. Every step to make it harder feels like an act of sadism at first. If it´s done well, we might hate it in the beginning but love it after completing the task. This isn´t new, btw. 5000 years ago some egypts built the entrances of their pyramids several hundred meters away from the real entrance. Just to give the visitors time to raise tension.

BTT: It needs to be done in an interesting way. And some things that worked on us for our first epic or legendary items in other games might bore us to death now. For example: I play GW2 at the moment and build some high end gear. The method doesn´t differ much from my first legendaries I got in WoW 10+ years ago, which was very exiting. In fact so exiting that I still love to remember those moments. But now It bores me to death. Times have changes, players have changed and developers have to adapt.

 

 

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19 hours ago, ShadowwBoi13 said:

Except you dont need a stone mason and you dont need to waste imports/exports, you just need to control the keep (which is probably still bugged, but when fixed shouldnt be an issue) or the Fort that has the rune table (Their is always at least 1 fort that has one in every campaing). And with 5.8 on the way with the multi-cluster maps, if each of the siege islands (the ones with the keep icons, at least thats what im calling them for now, or possibly even the "large islands" as i dont know how much will be on a "large" island) if each siege island (or large) has the standard set up of 1 Keep 3 Forts then it will be even easier to keep hold of a keep or at least the 1 fort with a rune table closest to your factions main runegate.

In response to the OPs mention previously about infinite durability basic tools. Basic tools are made the way they are cause they dont want people getting just enough mitigation for a node to be able to harvest rank 9/10 nodes doing 1 damage at a time and just sitting there with left click held down until the node finally pops because if they had infinite durability thats exactly what would happen most of the time. Also because while nothing will stop botters from finding a way into the game it makes it an extra layer of work for a bot to change out tools every time one breaks and also stops the bot from doing the above mentioned 1 damage only spam harvesting. So two birds with one stone.

And also like others have said if someone is planning on going the harvesting route, then work your skill training to the decay reduction nodes and run Villein and pair it with Survivalist to boost your damage output to nodes so your useing less total hits to finish off nodes. And if they are not going the harvesting route its their job to either find a supplier of decent tools to make whatever minimal amount of harvesting you do bearable or they can piddle around with basic tools forever and if thats the route they choose then they accept that they will be using low durability tools that need to be replaced pretty consistantly. This game isnt for people who want to avoid networking with other players. 

Albeit i will concede that in comparison to literally every other thing you craft (that isnt consumable) tools have a way shorter life span, saying something along the lines that basic and rune tools could probably use a durability boost to last a bit longer would probably be agreeable to most people but thats only because almost every other crafted item in the game has such high staying power.

A set of armor can literally last you a month+. Before decay changes i literally used the same armor for 3 campaigns and it was hand-me-down armor from one of my guild mates, and it still didnt break i just got better armor and replaced it. But once the change to decay came in i still was able to use one set through 2 campaigns (although my active play time was like half of normal at this time) and only the boots got low enough on durability to me to even start worrying about it (that armor might still be in my SB now that i think about it). Vessels are going to last forever now apparently. Accessories only take durability hits on death as opposed to constantly ticking down while in combat stance like armor, so they can also last a while. Weapons exist in the same space as armor.

So giving tools a boost so they can at least get you through an hour or so of harvesting (without decay bonuses) wouldnt be to bad of a idea and would mitigate some of the frustration that lazy people will have when dealing with tools.

Writing a wall of text doesn`t make my feeling go away. You have some arguments and i would agree if they change some things it might be not as much annoying. But still for me and probably some more people this turns them of from playing the game, so probably they need to change something on that.

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22 hours ago, DoomYa said:

I think we value something higher if we worked hard and "earned" it. But there is a difference between doing a great job building a masterpiece and being stuck behind a time gate with a braindead zombie task. We don´t want "instant gratification". We just want to spend our time on something meaningful.

Compare this to RL hobbies: There is a spot for your favorite hobby right behind your house and an equally good spot on the other side of the city. Which spot would you pick? Noone would pick the traveltime to feel the happyness ramp up. On the other hand: We tend to choose the easy way which might let us miss some opportunities. So it´s the job of a game designer to find the right proportion of pain and gain. And make the painful part enjoyable. Remember, it´s still a game.

In a virtual environment we could get everything as instant gratification like WoW does it. Every step to make it harder feels like an act of sadism at first. If it´s done well, we might hate it in the beginning but love it after completing the task. This isn´t new, btw. 5000 years ago some egypts built the entrances of their pyramids several hundred meters away from the real entrance. Just to give the visitors time to raise tension.

BTT: It needs to be done in an interesting way. And some things that worked on us for our first epic or legendary items in other games might bore us to death now. For example: I play GW2 at the moment and build some high end gear. The method doesn´t differ much from my first legendaries I got in WoW 10+ years ago, which was very exiting. In fact so exiting that I still love to remember those moments. But now It bores me to death. Times have changes, players have changed and developers have to adapt.

 

 

No what he is asking for is to take out the concept of tools degrading over time which is pivital to a economy in the game. Of course you use GW2 where there is no grind and no meaning in that game; you know the reason everyone quit. Why are you using real life concepts for a video game? That is reaching hardcore. The point is he wants the game to be completely easy mode without having to put effort into the game(the whole point to mmorpgs) when there are numerous games(mobas) and mmorpgs(Gw2) that cater to that playstyle. Just because the mmolite players deem having to craft tools as redundant doesn't infer that they are meaningless; it serves a purpose in game. The topic creator even had his arguement countered with a solution(using better material to make a stronger tool), but apparently progression in game is too hard.

Maybe this game isn't for you because it has progression with risk and rewards. Gw2 has all the mmolite instant gratification your player type needs.

Edited by IsilithTehroth

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On 11/10/2018 at 10:19 AM, idoll said:

Address here super annoying things.

From user centered design perspective annoying things, which have no none to zero meaning in game should really be fixed.

 

Let me start with gathering tools. What purpose does it serve that I need to make millions of copies of gathering tools to gather. I can not address enough how annoying it is to craft such basic item... again.... and again... i understand if my pick was looted from my body. Sure... but why does it have to break all the god damn time. Im sure you can find other material sinks than this... which are enjoyable from gamer perspective.

 

The second thing is gathering in general. It is super annoying to have to slot the tools again and again and use right kind of tool. Why cant i just have one single ability for gathering and the guy would pick right tool for the job if he had one. I play games for fun and the current mechanics are far from being fun. Please automate the things, which are not that important.

I think the main argument of this thread is a bit misconstrued.  Idoll does not like some interface/quality of life aspects of harvesting.  Others are arguing this game is hard

To be quite honest,  I think these are 2 separate  things all together.  Idoll can suggest things to make 2 clicks 1 click without fundamentally changing the game.  I prefer 1 click vs. 2 in any task I have to 2 3000 times.

I do think tools should last a good 300% longer but I'm happy with the fundamental design of harvesting atm.  Crafting on the other hand..... 

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5 hours ago, Jubenei said:

Writing a wall of text doesn`t make my feeling go away. You have some arguments and i would agree if they change some things it might be not as much annoying. But still for me and probably some more people this turns them of from playing the game, so probably they need to change something on that.

My bad if it felt like that whole post was meant for you, that wasnt my intention, only the first paragraph was meant in response to you just to get that extra bit of information out there for you and any others who might not have known about the extra Rune bench in the fort (it took a few campaigns for me to figure that out). I wasnt exactly trying to change your opinion or persuade you one way or the other, the rest of it was more in response to the OP's earlier post,

But can you explain what truly makes the durability mechanic annoying specifically to Crow Fall? Because ive only seen "its annoying" and "waste of time/resources", which is like going into any shooter game and complaining that reloading is dumb and annoying and shouldnt be in the game cause it does nothing but take me out of the action against my will and forces me to do something i dont wanna do when i could still be mowing down enemies. 

Plenty of other games have tools break (beginner and advanced tools) and ive never seen mention of people complaining about it in other games (although i might not be as active in those game's out of game communities ie forums and such). Minecraft, Ark, Black Desert and probably many other games have tools break and you either have to spend resources or gold to remake/buy them again (or dump resources back into the item to repair it, which we havent got our hand on cause the repair and salvage systems are not in testing yet). And if you ask why i used those three games as an example its because, Minecraft is a Sandbox game, Ark is a survival game, and Black Desert is an MMO, and Crowfall is a Sandbox(lite) Survival PvP MMO.

 

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1 hour ago, Vesperre said:

I think the main argument of this thread is a bit misconstrued.  Idoll does not like some interface/quality of life aspects of harvesting.  Others are arguing this game is hard

To be quite honest,  I think these are 2 separate  things all together.  Idoll can suggest things to make 2 clicks 1 click without fundamentally changing the game.  I prefer 1 click vs. 2 in any task I have to 2 3000 times.

I do think tools should last a good 300% longer but I'm happy with the fundamental design of harvesting atm.  Crafting on the other hand..... 

His main theme was that basic tools should have infinite durability...   He is annoyed because he has to keep making basic tools over and over again when he is out harvesting rank 2-5 wood.   He refuses to make or buy better tools, does not acknowledge the training skills or other mitigations to tool wear nor does he understand that tools are a Runecrafter's economic bacon (discs will be even better income though).   

As to his suggestion that the right tool is automatically used, that isn't even an issue, you have a toolbar to choose your tool fast and easy...   it's not even a conscious thought for a real gamer and when you do hit a tree with a pick you should think of yourself as the idiot, not the game...   the game should let you do it though.   Yes my excavator rolls with both picks and hammers and both can be of very high quality which means if I get ganked I am going to lose one of them no matter what...   I want to pick which one is equipped, not let the UI do it...   my pick may be better than my hammer so if I get jumped while harvesting stone I, I can pop my pick back on before turning to fight...   particularly if the pick is a 69 and the hammer a 42...   If the UI chose it would be less freedom to make a bad choice.

Also, if I roll with my pick, hammer, and an axe so I can take that players head when I turn on him...   should I really get to have my axe auto equipped when it is a race for him to crow out before my chop lands?   We know that if we run around with our tools hanging out (pun intended), enemy players see our shiny waggling tools from much farther, so we unequip them...   UI auto equip could be overridden by conscious command but why really, it is just giving a lazy player the chance to be lazy and the conscious player the chance to be screwed over by their own UI.

Now I am always a proponent to keep things harder...   more choices in the players hands to do dumb things as well as smart ones.   It separates the wheat from the chaff...   this kid is obnoxiously chaff.

Edited by Frykka

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4 minutes ago, Frykka said:

His main theme was that basic tools should have infinite durability...   He is annoyed because he has to keep making basic tools over and over again when he is out harvesting rank 2-5 wood.   He refuses to make or buy better tools, does not acknowledge the training skills or other mitigations to tool wear nor does he understand that tools are a Runecrafter's economic bacon (discs will be even better income though).   

As to his suggestion that the right tool is automatically used, that isn't even an issue, you have a toolbar to choose your tool fast and easy...   it's not even a conscious thought for a real gamer and when you do hit a tree with a pick you should think of yourself as the idiot, not the game...   the game should let you do it though.   Yes my excavator rolls with both picks and hammers and both can be of very high quality which means if I get ganked I am going to lose one of them no matter what...   I want to pick which one is equipped, not let the UI do it...   my pick may be better than my hammer so if I get jumped while harvesting stone I, I can pop my pick back on before turning to fight...   particularly if the pick is a 69 and the hammer a 42...   If the UI chose it would be less freedom to make a bad choice.

Now I am always a proponent to keep things harder...   more choices in the players hands to do dumb things as well as smart ones.   It separates the wheat from the chaff...   this kid is obnoxiously chaff.

I think this game gets rid of the chaff from the fact you actually have to do some research to learn how 2 play.

I think thought it would be nice to have 4 harvesting slots.  The one you have in the slot is the one u use.  You can switch it out at your leisure.  I get the switching picks things.  I do it too.  I guess my point is the game is new, there will be many UI improvements/Quality of life improvements.  I'm not oppose to that.

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7 minutes ago, Vesperre said:

I think this game gets rid of the chaff from the fact you actually have to do some research to learn how 2 play.

I think thought it would be nice to have 4 harvesting slots.  The one you have in the slot is the one u use.  You can switch it out at your leisure.  I get the switching picks things.  I do it too.  I guess my point is the game is new, there will be many UI improvements/Quality of life improvements.  I'm not oppose to that.tool slots 

Having more equipment slots for tools lessens the risk to have the tool looted when you carry more than one...   gankers want our good tools too... they may even be the most valuable thing that can be looted.   That is why I tend to go on a Wood only run or a Leather only run, etc carrying only the one high quality tool I need for that hour long node banging session.   It breaks up my commitment to gathering into nice satisfying chunks...   I can compare my yields to the quality of the tool I use and I have a solid point to be done with it for the short term.   It becomes an achievement thing...   how much yield per tool with what training.  I can easily see the achievement.

 

Edited by Frykka

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I'd like to see people carrying more lootable stuff, not less.

The incentive to carry tools in inventory while out in the field is a good thing.


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