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idoll

Super annoying things

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1 hour ago, IsilithTehroth said:

No what he is asking for is to take out the concept of tools degrading over time which is pivital to a economy in the game.

It´s the way how tools degrade. As it´s implemented now, it´s just a time sink. What about making harvesting a real minigame. If you fail, your tool degrades. If you excell, you loot more and better stuff and save some time. Sure, it´s hard/impossible to find the sweet spot between "do braindead stuff for hours" and "concentrate on a challenging minigame for some poor resources for hours", but I never said it´s easy to be a good game designer in 2018. ;-)

Just watch how different games tried to stay interesting for their communities between 1990 and 2018. In the beginning it was easy: There wasn´t much choice. Then we had a period with great games without real rewards. We played them, because they were fun. Later developers added rewards. That worked really well. When Blizzard added the achievement system to WoW, people did bullsh!t jobs for month just to complete the rewards (Over 9000! ^^). Now we have it in Steam games and any other game. Because it is so easy to replace the intrinsic motivation of good gameplay with the extrinsic motivation of a cheap reward system. See where I want to take you? Harvesting is boring? Cheap solution: Give better rewards. Real solution: Don´t implement a boring system.  

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30 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Having more equipment slots for tools lessens the risk to have the tool looted when you carry more than one...   gankers want our good tools too... they may even be the most valuable thing that can be looted.   That is why I tend to go on a Wood only run or a Leather only run, etc carrying only the one high quality tool I need for that hour long node banging session.   It breaks up my commitment to gathering into nice satisfying chunks...   I can compare my yields to the quality of the tool I use and I have a solid point to be done with it for the short term.   It becomes an achievement thing...   how much yield per tool with what training.  I can easily see the achievement.

 

Now the real question is.  Will they have pure harvester escape skills or do we have all assassins and duelists harvesters?  Since I've started harvesting on an assassin I'm never going back.  Half-Elf to get ore/stone racials and assassin for stealth.  Since I've harvested on assassin I haven't been ganked once.

And for those say just switch to melee, the melee tree kinda sucks with all crafting runes equipped.

Edited by Vesperre

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Just now, Vesperre said:

Now the real question is.  Will they have pure harvester escape skills or do we have all assassins and duelists harvesters?  Since I've started harvesting on an assassin I'm never going back.  Half-Elf to get ore/stone racials and assassin for stealth.  Since I've harvested on assassin I haven't been ganked once.

Melee tree kinda sucks with all crafting runes equipped.

 

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47 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Now I am always a proponent to keep things harder...   more choices in the players hands to do dumb things as well as smart ones.   It separates the wheat from the chaff...   this kid is obnoxiously chaff.

Saturday, 22:15 CEST+1:

Aerynth US: 8/150 players
Aerynth EU: 19/150 players
Aerynth BR: 1/150 players

Must be fun to feel like "superior" wheat. Loneliness doesn´t seem to be a concern for nerds like you. ;-)

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4 minutes ago, Shnoo said:

Saturday, 22:15 CEST+1:

Aerynth US: 8/150 players
Aerynth EU: 19/150 players
Aerynth BR: 1/150 players

Must be fun to feel like "superior" wheat. Loneliness doesn´t seem to be a concern for nerds like you. ;-)

Yep, that is what it looks like when people are waiting for a major patch with an expected full wipe.

It has nothing to do with the durability of basic rune tools.


IhhQKY6.gif

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2 minutes ago, Shnoo said:

Saturday, 22:15 CEST+1:

Aerynth US: 8/150 players
Aerynth EU: 19/150 players
Aerynth BR: 1/150 players

Must be fun to feel like "superior" wheat. Loneliness doesn´t seem to be a concern for nerds like you. ;-)

For testing a pre-alpha game those numbers have absolutely zero significance.

Saturday, 9-8-15 22:15 CEST+1
Aerynth US: 150/150 with queue...

People test and then are done.  This test has been done for well over a month.

 


6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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23 minutes ago, Vesperre said:

Now the real question is.  Will they have pure harvester escape skills or do we have all assassins and duelists harvesters?  Since I've started harvesting on an assassin I'm never going back.  Half-Elf to get ore/stone racials and assassin for stealth.  Since I've harvested on assassin I haven't been ganked once.

And for those say just switch to melee, the melee tree kinda sucks with all crafting runes equipped.

All of the high quality harvest areas will be contested except perhaps in the wee hours...   solo harvesting regardless of stealth will be very dicey.   The guilds will have skirmish groups out looking to disrupt and steal your yield at almost all times.   The major guilds will have patrols and organized harvesting runs all while the war rages...   don't expect anything like we see now.

A specced out ranger will track and take out assassin gatherers like butter...   perception isn't working right at the moment but we will see you without flare when we get within 20-30m.    Stealth is not safety, having a group is.

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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2 minutes ago, Frykka said:

All of the high quality harvest areas will be contested except perhaps in the wee hours...   solo harvesting regardless of stealth will be very dicey.   The guilds will have skirmish groups out looking to disrupt and steal your yield at almost all times.   The major guilds will have patrols and organized harvesting runs all while the war rages...   don't expect anything like we see now.

Sounds horrible..almost sounds like errrr...'War'.

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just got back and havent fully read through the entirety of what i missed, but didnt they used to have tool slots to equip tools back in the OLD days when we still had to press F to harvest. And didnt they do away with it because players didnt want that type of harvesting system and it had issues with harvesting when nodes were close together?

 

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10 hours ago, Jah said:

Yep, that is what it looks like when people are waiting for a major patch with an expected full wipe.

It has nothing to do with the durability of basic rune tools.

The fact that he thinks its because of tool durability leaves me to think he feels the game revolves around him. No one is making a problem out of the tool durability except people that don't want to put forth effort to play the game the way it is meant. Are you going to complain that you are forced to upgrade your weapon/gear too or get smashed in pvp?

 

11 hours ago, Shnoo said:

It´s the way how tools degrade. As it´s implemented now, it´s just a time sink. What about making harvesting a real minigame. If you fail, your tool degrades. If you excell, you loot more and better stuff and save some time. Sure, it´s hard/impossible to find the sweet spot between "do braindead stuff for hours" and "concentrate on a challenging minigame for some poor resources for hours", but I never said it´s easy to be a good game designer in 2018. ;-)

Just watch how different games tried to stay interesting for their communities between 1990 and 2018. In the beginning it was easy: There wasn´t much choice. Then we had a period with great games without real rewards. We played them, because they were fun. Later developers added rewards. That worked really well. When Blizzard added the achievement system to WoW, people did bullsh!t jobs for month just to complete the rewards (Over 9000! ^^). Now we have it in Steam games and any other game. Because it is so easy to replace the intrinsic motivation of good gameplay with the extrinsic motivation of a cheap reward system. See where I want to take you? Harvesting is boring? Cheap solution: Give better rewards. Real solution: Don´t implement a boring system.  

Yes a minigame would be nice, but you are missing the point to durability on tools. It is to force you to upgrade and risk better tools in the game world and as a resource sink so lower end materials aren't worthless; its for the economy. Risk vs Reward. Darkfall online did this and it wasn't a problem at all and we couldn't even upgrade our tools(Unholy wars allowed you to). You are confusing weapon durability/resource sink with the concept of harvesting not being boring and having better yeilds for player skill.

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On 16.11.2018 at 8:24 PM, ShadowwBoi13 said:

But can you explain what truly makes the durability mechanic annoying specifically to Crow Fall? Because ive only seen "its annoying" and "waste of time/resources", which is like going into any shooter game and complaining that reloading is dumb and annoying and shouldnt be in the game cause it does nothing but take me out of the action against my will and forces me to do something i dont wanna do when i could still be mowing down enemies.

As far as i remember once you start frech on the server with basic tools you harvest some wood until you can make an axe. Then you can harvest like 15 wood until its breaks but you need 3 wood each for other tools like hammer and pick. And then it starts repeating. You go out harvest stuff and constantly have to recraft the tools cause they break all the time, then when you want to mine ore you also have to harvest wood otherwise you won`t be able to make new tools. Then probably after a week of gametime and if you trained it you can do intermediate tools. But this is big bollucks cause you have to go back and forth to the beachhead to get to the workbench and they are not cheap so you can`t use slag and its just the time and resources you invest is so much compared what you get out of it. I mean i can understand that they don`t want you to be able to gather high tier resources with low level tools and without having to invest in gathering, but the current system just doesn`t feel very fluent.

If you want to gather one specific resource you either have to prepare really good or you constantly have to interrupt you actions and go back and forth to be able to do so. Its not like you can out discover and harvest what you find. And they resources by themself get better and better the closer they are to the center of the map, but that means your ways get longer and longer. I mean you can prepare to avoid that, you can make like 5 or ten tools and then start doing something, but there is also the risk of beeing killed and looted and then its all gone. And then for runetools i can`t say much about that, every time i finished training on that and on stonemason to be able to craft the workbench, there was a wipe. I used runetools like 2 years ago when there were no high level resources and you could craft them anywhere, that was quite ok. But now things have changed and the introduction of the workbenches for toolmaking was big disappointment for me so far.

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3 hours ago, Jubenei said:

As far as i remember once you start frech on the server with basic tools you harvest some wood until you can make an axe. Then you can harvest like 15 wood until its breaks but you need 3 wood each for other tools like hammer and pick. And then it starts repeating. You go out harvest stuff and constantly have to recraft the tools cause they break all the time, then when you want to mine ore you also have to harvest wood otherwise you won`t be able to make new tools. Then probably after a week of gametime and if you trained it you can do intermediate tools.

I agree that basic harvest tools degrade a bit too quickly for new players. I would really like to see a change in durability loss while harvesting the 3 starting resources or reduce hp's of those 3 resources for new players. I would rather the latter happen since its quick database change and I don't wish to have basic tools become exploited somehow.

You could always buy runetools from others in EK's.

3 hours ago, Jubenei said:

 And then for runetools i can`t say much about that, every time i finished training on that and on stonemason to be able to craft the workbench, there was a wipe. I used runetools like 2 years ago when there were no high level resources and you could craft them anywhere, that was quite ok. But now things have changed and the introduction of the workbenches for toolmaking was big disappointment for me so far.

You can use the benches at keeps and in EK's. You don't need to train every skill or be a jack-of-all trades. Well you can, but not really feasible early game. 

Edited by mystafyi

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*If this seems like a lot to read the less important points are italicized so skip those if you wanna stay focused on the main point*

10 hours ago, Jubenei said:

As far as i remember once you start frech on the server with basic tools you harvest some wood until you can make an axe. Then you can harvest like 15 wood until its breaks but you need 3 wood each for other tools like hammer and pick. And then it starts repeating. You go out harvest stuff and constantly have to recraft the tools cause they break all the time, then when you want to mine ore you also have to harvest wood otherwise you won`t be able to make new tools. Then probably after a week of gametime and if you trained it you can do intermediate tools. But this is big bollucks cause you have to go back and forth to the beachhead to get to the workbench and they are not cheap so you can`t use slag and its just the time and resources you invest is so much compared what you get out of it. I mean i can understand that they don`t want you to be able to gather high tier resources with low level tools and without having to invest in gathering, but the current system just doesn`t feel very fluent.

As far as im aware (unless they changed something) you dont need any training to make intermediate tools, all you need to do is find the general crafting table (which the beach head and every fort/keep has one or more of) or a rune table (cause intermediate is still an option in rune tables as well). After you can find any of those there is no reason to use basic tools. Also you can use knottwood and slag on intermediate tools.

The natural progression of a post wipe is; Punch Knotwood Tree get 3 Wood to make basic axe, Make Basic Axe hit any low rank tree (that isnt knotwood) get 6 named wood for Sturdy Basic Pick and Sturdy basic Axe (keep or dump basic axe cause you no longer need it), Make Sturdy Axe and Pick get low rank named ores and wood, Go to general crafting table and Make intermediate tools with no experimentation rolls (will have slightly less durability than a sturdy tool but has +10 (or +12.5) logging for more damage so it will technically last longer cause doing more damage per hit means it takes less hits) or if you have that 1 or 2 pips of experimentation dump them into the only stat you can on an intermediate which is durability (which will make it have more than a sturdy basic). From that point forward you should always have a small surplus of low quality named resources and should never have to make a basic tool again.

The only issue i see here is that a person who doesnt want to carry 3 or so intermediate (or runecrafted) Axes (which could probably get you an hour so of harvesting) wants to have an easier time harvesting because they dont feel like risking losing the extra tools if they die. If you dont wanna carry extra tools thats not a game design flaw (and choosing to only use basic tools cause they are craftable anywhere is your choice), thats a choice you made and the consequence is you have to run back to your Beachhead/Fort/Keep every 20 mins or so to dump your haul and get a fresh tool (which also isnt a bad idea cause dropping off your partial haul means no one can take it from you). All that sounds like to me is a person playing a PvP game that doesnt wanna deal with the risk of PvP (which can be circumvented by playing in groups which the game heavily encourages) OR someone who is overly cautious and has to live with the choices that not taking risks means adding more work

Just a Note cause i just went to my EK and crafted a few basic/intermediate tools.

  • A Basic Axe (assumeing you dont fail the assembly roll) has 65 Durability
  • A Sturdy Basic Axe has 100 durability
  • An Intermediate Axe made with only Knottwood and slag, with no experimentation rolls has 95 durability but +10 Logging stat
  • An Intermediate axe made with only Knottwood and slag, with 2 pips of experimentation (a reasonable amount a less trained player might have) has 108 Durability with +10 Logging
  • An Intermediate Axe made with 3 white named wood and 3 white named ore and no experimentation has 110 Durability and +12.5 Logging (so more dura and damage to last longer)
  •  And lastly an Intermediate Axe with 3 white named wood and 3 white named ore with 2 pips of experimentation has 121 Durability and +12.5 logging

*Note: Experimentation rolls can vary the expected outcome of durability but im pretty sure the Logging bonus is based purely off of if you used trash rank resources or named resources*

11 hours ago, Jubenei said:

And then for runetools i can`t say much about that, every time i finished training on that and on stonemason to be able to craft the workbench, there was a wipe.

Thats a you not being fully informed issue, not a game design issue. 1: There are runecrafting tables in campaigns (Keeps and at least 1 fort have them), 2: There are a few public EKs that people have up pretty often (Check out Arkadium, Srathors Lawn, or Ravenheart they are up pretty often if not always, but maybe not so much now cause the servers are dead while everyone waits for 5.8) that have most if not all the crafting tables in them and probably some shops selling gear/tools/random stuff they dont want, 3: Other people train Stonemason find one of them and make a trade of some sort to get a personal crating table for your EK if you must have it in your EK. 

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I'll write about it from perspective of someone who plays games for 30 years. Who spent tens of thousands of hours in 8-bit times. Tens of thousands of hours in MMO games. And is not playing SP games anymore unless they are damn awesome.

Here I intend to be mainly focused on support role even while I am damn good PvP player and close to top in fps games like CS1.6/Toxikk/...
As support, I would be pretty disappointed if someone other who focuses mainly on PvP part of character could as easily do my supporting role. I would feel like fool for giving time and effort into it as it would be to no benefit.

I can't imagine what would active Artisan/Warsmith/Maestro in Lineage 2 feel if all those PvP classes had same crafting abilities.

I am not playing Crowfall for long, actually for one week now. And my time in game was not plenty outside of running around in group and being killed by those who leveled PvP since last reset. But I can read, Explore provided information in game/web. And ideas behind game mechanics are great. Implementation quite good.

Please, don't take it badly @idoll . But you want Crowfall to be just another generic mmorpg and those fail. I have seen and played dozens of small, yet unique games which were not generally appealing to wide audience, but had their loyal player base. And all of those which died, did so because they went to copy some similar and popular game. Turning into that popular game will not steal players from it, they are already too deeply involved, have community, friends. Those changes do exact opposite. Loyal players feel betrayed and quit.

Crowfall can actually fly instead of falling, because it has solid ideas different enough from mainstream. Yes, there may be adoption of some wise strategy like GW1/2 team has: "Is it Fun? No? Then it should not be in game." - But this is "Sandboxed" PvP-MMORPG. You are not going to feel awesome all the time.

Do you know what was so appealing on Lineage games? Adrenaline from PvP over something. Hundreds of people battling over some tiny thing. At end of each of many frequent clashes, there was always more losers than winners.

But even in defeat, everyone knew that they were important in one way or another. Do not think supports will thank you for making it easy.

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