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Impossum

Durability revamp

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Starting this off by saying that durability degradation isn't the greatest system in the world. With some tweaks it could be less frustration to new players and enable the option for harsher death penalties in lower band campaigns. Revamping how durability plays a role during the research portion of crafting could also be important. Stronger gear should come with the trade-off of lower durability. Last but not least, death should be where items go to die.

Losing items while using them, either by harvesting or entering combat stance, is a poor system to say the least. Cranking up durability will just lengthen the time of an item's lifespan. We want players replacing gear, but we also want a system where you're not having to carry around back-ups. By changing the breakage to a death(not all deaths) this shifts where players will equip their new gear, from a fort or safe haven. Durability can tick down just like before, the big difference is once it hits "1" it will stop losing durability. On each death items will go through a check. Depending on the campaign rules, it will lose X amount of durability. IF the durability goes 0 or below, it's now broken. Now the player who was smart probably has a back-up waiting for him at his respawn location.

Currently when crafting items, you start off with lower durability, this can be increased during the research phase and by using a "pip."  The higher quality of the resources,  the more resources you will have to increase stats and durability. You could outright ignore durability, or pump it up. The outcome is obvious, higher quality items typically have more durability.

Would like to see less of a trade off, Artcraft should have the most control with item loss. Remove the ability to increase durability during the research phase(Pips can only increase stats.) Durability should be the same for all items, but as you spend a pip you will also lose durability. This will hopefully flip low durability for newer players. If items are breaking too fast, then Artcraft could have more accurate feedback.. everyone will have a similar experience. You won't be able to increase your durability, but perhaps mitigate the loss. (Either from campaign rules or passives.) Low quality items will last longer, however the goal is to normalize the gap of durability from quality.

Recovering your body won't count as a death check on items, but if the corpse gets executed or if you retrieve then a check will occur. This will be great because it won't discourage players from trying to kill monsters. If you were to die from a monster and no enemy was around to chop your head off, don't see why this would count. Reviving would also prevent this. It feels pretty good to keep item-loss as a mechanic for PvP only.

Of course this suggestion is keeping in mind that blueprints factories will be online. Creating items is very slow right now, once crafters can skip the research phase with factories it will hopefully allow more items to enter the market. Blueprints shouldn't last forever and should have a limited amount of runs, so you can't skip researching forever. (In other word the blueprint creation phase.)

Now the durability of the blueprint item can be put to another use. You can spend it like a resource. This can be spent to reduce the crafting time or reduce the amount of resources, or even the number of runs at the cost of item's future durability. This way crafters can decide how they are marketing this item. Is this a cheap easily researched item? Or is this an expensive masterpiece? The crafter could decide to not spend durability while sending it to the factory, thus giving it an above average durability.

Hope this helps

 

Edit: Blueprints are now online and do a very specific and have nothing to do with mass producing items. They allow a limited use of a special recipe for crafting. Factories should allow crafters to use items they have crafted as a catalyst, thus destroying it. Then within the factory they can reduce the durability of all future items but could get a benefit out of it. Factory created items obviously can't be used a catalysts, and items that have been used  can't be a catalyst either. Unsure how cost will be calculated now, it will probably cost dust.

Edited by Impossum

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4 hours ago, Impossum said:

Would like to see less of a trade off, Artcraft should have the most control with item loss. Remove the ability to increase durability during the research phase(Pips can only increase stats.) Durability should be the same for all items, but as you spend a pip you will also lose durability. This will hopefully flip low durability for newer players. If items are breaking too fast, then Artcraft could have more accurate feedback.. everyone will have a similar experience. You won't be able to increase your durability, but perhaps mitigate the loss. (Either from campaign rules or passives.) Low quality items will last longer, however the goal is to normalize the gap of durability from quality.

I like the idea of having trade off's. more damage or range but durability is lessened. as you said with skills you can mitigate durability losses.

4 hours ago, Impossum said:

Creating items is very slow right now, once crafters can skip the research phase with blueprints it will hopefully allow more items to enter the market. 

I don't think this will occur. With vendors at EK's and EK's available to every campaign and faction, why would many players want to equip their enemies with good gear? Don't even need to get into having to spirit bank mats back to EK's to craft and vendor with limited import/exports. Vendors need to be inside campaigns to be effective at making a player run economy. They already had to add NPC vendors to the game to mitigate problems, I expect to see this expanded in time.

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2 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I like the idea of having trade off's. more damage or range but durability is lessened. as you said with skills you can mitigate durability losses.

 

I don't know if you guys have crafted Legendary or Epic gear yet but you should know, in 5.7 we only had a max of 16 pips instead of 20 (never seen anyone get more than 18 ever.   Those final assemblies have rows of 9 or 10 pips each stats, damage, range on bows, and durability; durability is always low priority and so we do 8 pips dmg and 8 pips either range or stats...   never is an Epic weapon getting durability above what came from earlier experiments on components.   in other words, it's already there that durability is not a part of even Blue weapons unless you want to and that would be dumb.   It's not a needed suggestion because it is limited by the max # of pips...   a high end crafter can only make white maybe green gear with some extra dura...


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35 minutes ago, Frykka said:

I don't know if you guys have crafted Legendary or Epic gear yet but you should know, in 5.7 we only had a max of 16 pips instead of 20 (never seen anyone get more than 18 ever.   Those final assemblies have rows of 9 or 10 pips each stats, damage, range on bows, and durability; durability is always low priority and so we do 8 pips dmg and 8 pips either range or stats...   never is an Epic weapon getting durability above what came from earlier experiments on components.   in other words, it's already there that durability is not a part of even Blue weapons unless you want to and that would be dumb.   It's not a needed suggestion because it is limited by the max # of pips...   a high end crafter can only make white maybe green gear with some extra dura...

I was thinking that durability could actually go down slightly when you increased damage/stats/ect without spending any pips in durability. So basic gear could have durability boosted a bit for new players, but would not make high end gear with high durability and high stats viable since boosting stats exclusively would reduce durability.

Edited by mystafyi

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6 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I don't think this will occur. With vendors at EK's and EK's available to every campaign and faction, why would many players want to equip their enemies with good gear? Don't even need to get into having to spirit bank mats back to EK's to craft and vendor with limited import/exports. Vendors need to be inside campaigns to be effective at making a player run economy. They already had to add NPC vendors to the game to mitigate problems, I expect to see this expanded in time.

You're right. My point was that crafting is too time consuming per item, without blueprints. Some campaigns might not allow any or low amounts of imports, so it's important to have a well run craft-force!

 

3 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I was thinking that durability could actually go down slightly when you increased damage/stats/ect without spending any pips in durability. So basic gear could have durability boosted a bit for new players, but would not make high end gear with high durability and high stats viable since boosting stats exclusively would reduce durability.

Leaning toward not able to increase durability at all, and instead turn it more into a resource. Removing the pip option for durability all together. Items seem to have a problem, a blue item could be better than a purple item.(If the purple had poor rolls) 

Depending on how much durability has been removed will determine the color. Kinda like an item-level. This way your resources you put in won't determine the color of an item. It will rely on both the crafter's skill and the resources.

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4 hours ago, Impossum said:

You're right. My point was that crafting is too time consuming per item, without blueprints. Some campaigns might not allow any or low amounts of imports, so it's important to have a well run craft-force!

 

Leaning toward not able to increase durability at all, and instead turn it more into a resource. Removing the pip option for durability all together. Items seem to have a problem, a blue item could be better than a purple item.(If the purple had poor rolls) 

Depending on how much durability has been removed will determine the color. Kinda like an item-level. This way your resources you put in won't determine the color of an item. It will rely on both the crafter's skill and the resources.

It is the big sink that you can make a poor choice to use higher end materials and still get an item that has a lower damage stat than a lower quality item...   but the components that were put in that piece are usually far superior so its stats and durability are higher making it usually better overall.   You need to know when your skills are high enough to effectively use that color knowing how many pips it is going to give you.   You should stockpile those mats until you get there or you free choice will waste them.   Somewhere close to 60 assy, 60 exp and 12 pips...

Sorry but this suggestion ignores one of the most interesting aspects of the crafting-blueprint mechanic, the bootstrap...   the art of working lesser materials into your blueprint and still getting higher color results...   bars made from 6 greens and 3 whites, weapon made from one blue and 3 green components and rolls blue.

Edited by Frykka

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3 hours ago, Frykka said:

Sorry but this suggestion ignores one of the most interesting aspects of the crafting-blueprint mechanic, the bootstrap...   the art of working lesser materials into your blueprint and still getting higher color results...   bars made from 6 greens and 3 whites, weapon made from one blue and 3 green components and rolls blue.

Unsure if it's that interesting. The color of the resource means something, so shouldn't higher colors typically mean more stats? Also if a crafter was plugging in higher quality materials, and saw a green item come out, chances are that crafter won't do that again. It would be more confusion in the long run.

It would be interesting to see a crafter plug in green resources and with high rolls produce a blue item.

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2 hours ago, Impossum said:

Unsure if it's that interesting. The color of the resource means something, so shouldn't higher colors typically mean more stats? Also if a crafter was plugging in higher quality materials, and saw a green item come out, chances are that crafter won't do that again. It would be more confusion in the long run.

It would be interesting to see a crafter plug in green resources and with high rolls produce a blue item.

You bet it is for a crafter...   it is one of the more satisfying things in the face of lots of failure and endless poopy results.   Having your bow go blue from only a blue bow string with green riser and green limbs.   That is dependent on your crafting assembly skill and the difficulty reduction on your amulets.  Whether you then get a sweet result in experimentation is then based on a separate stat and your crafting armor stats and rings.   Of course a good crafter never makes one at a time, that is a sure fire way to suck...   I make at least 6 which is enough production to expect at least one exceptional result.


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On 11/17/2018 at 6:59 PM, Frykka said:

You bet it is for a crafter...   it is one of the more satisfying things in the face of lots of failure and endless poopy results.   Having your bow go blue from only a blue bow string with green riser and green limbs.   That is dependent on your crafting assembly skill and the difficulty reduction on your amulets.  Whether you then get a sweet result in experimentation is then based on a separate stat and your crafting armor stats and rings.   Of course a good crafter never makes one at a time, that is a sure fire way to suck...   I make at least 6 which is enough production to expect at least one exceptional result.

Only thing we're disagreeing on how an item gets it color. Right now the game is basically just slapping a color from one of the items. You know a lot about that type of stuff. 

 

On 11/17/2018 at 3:53 AM, Frykka said:

I don't know if you guys have crafted Legendary or Epic gear yet but you should know, in 5.7 we only had a max of 16 pips instead of 20 (never seen anyone get more than 18 ever.   Those final assemblies have rows of 9 or 10 pips each stats, damage, range on bows, and durability; durability is always low priority and so we do 8 pips dmg and 8 pips either range or stats...   never is an Epic weapon getting durability above what came from earlier experiments on components.   in other words, it's already there that durability is not a part of even Blue weapons unless you want to and that would be dumb.   It's not a needed suggestion because it is limited by the max # of pips...   a high end crafter can only make white maybe green gear with some extra dura...

Jumping back to an older post.

Pumping durability is basically a new player trap then? Totally agree that in the end that suggestion adds nothing if durability is something everyone is ignoring. Typically don't like the idea of removing an option from players just because the majority aren't using it. However, the suggestion comes with other things along side this one issue.

You have a base durability, when the item created it's graded based on how much durability is removed. The pip system should really be determining the color of the item, not the resources.(this is a newer suggestion)

Then you could remove durability further with blueprints  items but it wouldn't alter the color at this stage. This would be to get more runs out of the factory, lower costs, or time, etc.

 

edited

Edited by Impossum

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I would really like these claims to be backed up by experience, or even in game anecdotes, because I don't see a problem, other than items may last too long, with the current durability model.

My experience is that it takes multiple days of active combat stance, life and death, to the tune of a couple of weekends, before gear become at risk for breaking during combat.  What is your experience?

On 11/16/2018 at 6:04 PM, Impossum said:

 We want players replacing gear, but we also want a system where you're not having to carry around back-ups. By changing the breakage to a death(not all deaths) this shifts where players will equip their new gear, from a fort or safe haven.

If your current gear is close to breaking, STOP USING IT.  Don't carry a backup, equip the backup, sacrifice the one that is about to burn out. Sacrifice and XP now mean something, so even almost broken stuff can probably be sold.

The analogy of running on tank at [E] applies.  If you don't keep putting gas in the tank, sooner or later your walking with a gas can.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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The legendary piece I made at the start of the third campaign was only down 1/2 of its dura after days and days of pitched battles and two campaigns.  The white armor that I used from the middle of the second campaign and was never swapped out for any fight was at 1/4 dura last week when I walked away...   so it lasted 2.5 months and dozens of pitched battles 20 min long.    Yes durability is pretty high on items from well trained crafters.    It will get a few more knob turns

 


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4 minutes ago, Frykka said:

The legendary piece I made at the start of the third campaign was only down 1/2 of its dura after days and days of pitched battles and two campaigns.  The white armor that I used from the middle of the second campaign and was never swapped out for any fight was at 1/4 dura last week when I walked away...   so it lasted 2.5 months and dozens of pitched battles 20 min long.    Yes durability is pretty high on items from well trained crafters.    It will get a few more knob turns

 

The shorter time mine took to break, may have had something to do with the amount of gold farming I did in them.  I was either in a fight, or farming critters, and both those activities run down dura.

I just think the mechanic as is will always bother some people used to MMO gear lasting forever, or being able to use something until the last possible moment, more than it's any sort of functional problem.

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

The shorter time mine took to break, may have had something to do with the amount of gold farming I did in them.  I was either in a fight, or farming critters, and both those activities run down dura.

I just think the mechanic as is will always bother some people used to MMO gear lasting forever, or being able to use something until the last possible moment, more than it's any sort of functional problem.

This is very true...   I did not do very much gold farming time on my main combat account.    You don't exactly use your end game gear for that anyway, particularly when we could do it on some empty server with zero risk.    This next campaign should be different but still a leveled farming alt or even just a second vessel talent specced for harvesting and coin grinding will save your main combat spec vessel gear lots of dura dmg.


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1 minute ago, Frykka said:

This is very true...   I did not do very much gold farming time on my main combat account.    You don't exactly use your end game gear for that anyway, particularly when we could do it on some empty server with zero risk.    This next campaign should be different but still a leveled farming alt or even just a second vessel talent specced for harvesting and coin grinding will save your main combat spec vessel gear lots of dura dmg.

Critter farming is what failed roll gear is for.  :D

Which should actually have better/more average stats now that it's almost as impossible to stack failures in a row as it is a YOLO Amazing Success on all pips.

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2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

If your current gear is close to breaking, STOP USING IT.  Don't carry a backup, equip the backup, sacrifice the one that is about to burn out. Sacrifice and XP now mean something, so even almost broken stuff can probably be sold.

The analogy of running on tank at [E] applies.  If you don't keep putting gas in the tank, sooner or later your walking with a gas can.

Rather shift where you fill up, after a death.  We already have a food meter, do we really need two of them? Sorry for anecdotes , just a feeling that Artcraft will make the more lower band campaigns a punishment instead of challenge. Right now durability feels a bit too long, but way too short for the basic gear.(I know lol)  Ultimately would be happy with an eve online system, you die and it explodes/drops. Trying to find a middle ground.

If artcraft needs to tweak durability degradation, then there is still that issue of it snapping while in use. Players would experience this more and complain. Who wouldn't try to get the most out of their epic sword?? It would be a much snappy experience if it is lost on death, you could even have a death recap showing the damage and which stuff was broken. 

 

The analogy of a dripping faucet and a clogged sink is more fitting. Gear is trickling in and exiting too slowly. You will run on [E] if you can go could another 300 miles instead of 50. Sounds like a broken gauge.

  

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