Offline progression demotivates -> got nothing to do

[idoll 9]

Once you get the intermediate gear, there really is not anything to do than just offline level.

There is nothing to do in game to make you progress for your goal - what ever it may be.

I used to go out and gather stuff - which I then tried to turn into better rune tools, in a crafting progression which too often fails. I didnt succeed. Bummer. The tools break again and in the end I was not able to get any better resources. The loop starts again. YES I KNOW THE PROGRESSION COMES FROM OFFLINE TRAINING - AND THATS' THE ISSUE HERE
I can not do anything in game that would have any significant meaning in long run. The most important thing is to offline level. 

Once you realize that
-the high rank nodes and trees drop the same basic stuff that I get from low rank nodes, then there is no longer reason to gather low stuff... 
-you can not progress your character with online gaming - so then whats the point?
-all of your progression; getting better gear, crafting better stuff and so forth comes from offline leveling...
-there is no point wasting any resources trying to craft better gear now as you will be able to craft better stuff once you just offline level (so why waste any resources either)

Then you simply just stop logging in untill the offline leveling is done. Hell... you can even calculate how much time you need to stay offline and you don't have any reason to log in.

Well I am sure there will be a lot of players saying I am doing something wrong and should do this or that...

However this is my expression of the game as a new player and the developers should really have this feedback.



So what to do to solve these issues:
1. make low level nodes drop something that the high level nodes dont drop (this makes economy viable for low trainer players as well)
2. Make meaningful online progression (you could gather same points you gather offline)
3. Make offline progression so that people need to login to select which specific perk they are training... now you can just stay offline and gather 200000 points untill you log in

Edited November 17, 2018 by idoll

[Kraahk 3,744]

11 minutes ago, idoll said:

So what to do to solve these issues:
1. make low level nodes drop something that the high level nodes dont drop (this makes economy viable for low trainer players as well)
2. Make meaningful online progression (you could gather same points you gather offline)
3. Make offline progression so that people need to login to select which specific perk they are training... now you can just stay offline and gather 200000 points untill you log in

1. Slag ore nodes drop cutting grid, a rare resource other (higher/non-basic) nodes don't drop. They did this on purpose, so the problem is known and given a first part of a solution)

2. The online pogresstion will be about the contribution to win the campaigns. Providing "levels" is something they implemented to add some personal progession to the game. So this problem is also known and also given a first part of a solution.

3. Currently everybody uses the VIP version of the passive skill training, with 30 days progression being saved before points get lost (with currently 3 speed, thats 10 days). The non-VIP version is planned to allow 3 days of saving points before they get los. So the "saving 200k points" issue wont be the usual problem later.

[idoll 9]

If you are a crafter or plan to be one - progressing something else than crafting isnt really going to make you happy when ou sacrifice your crafts for cosmetic stats which have no meaning for you.

The victory conditions are set by players in the end of the campaign - not in the beginning. And even more so as the online leveling is not existent...

I am calling for being able to progress my leveling through the activities I am doing. However there needs to be fine balance between these - online and offline leveling. Also I do want to have some limits to the leveling - so that you couldnt play 24/7 and get progression. Other games solve this with daily quests, but I am not fan of those and this game is not really about it anyways. Still there are ways to do it.

So lets say I am training crafting - then I could also contribute to the crafting training with the activities I am doing... then I would also feel that it is more fair in the progression sense. Letting everyone just progress the same amount is stupid as hell.

 

[ShadowwBoi13 285]

I feel like ive heard this conversation before..... possibly multiple times before....

if only there was a way for me to somehow search through topics to see if this topic has been brought up before.... hmmmmmm

[idoll 9]

Just now, ShadowwBoi13 said:

I feel like ive heard this conversation before..... possibly multiple times before....

if only there was a way for me to somehow search through topics to see if this topic has been brought up before.... hmmmmmm

I wonder if that would really help the case... if theres plenty of posts, I guess there is an issue that needs focus. Somehow devs should need to indicate also the volatility of the problem

[mystafyi 371]

1 hour ago, idoll said:

I wonder if that would really help the case... if theres plenty of posts, I guess there is an issue that needs focus. Somehow devs should need to indicate also the volatility of the problem

Its a core part of the game and will not change. At this point in the development process it cannot change even if the ACE wanted to, which they don't. 

[MJayed 117]

IDK why people think crafting something a ton of times to level up your "skill" is fun. There is a reason why games that have a system like this offer a way to p2w.

Edited November 18, 2018 by MJayed

[idoll 9]

1 hour ago, MJayed said:

IDK why people think crafting something a ton of times to level up your "skill" is fun. There is a reason why games that have a system like this offer a way to p2w.

who said that?
and basically no-one is suggesting removal of the offline leveling - just suggesting something meaningful aside of it

[DocHollidaze 664]

2 hours ago, idoll said:

who said that?
and basically no-one is suggesting removal of the offline leveling - just suggesting something meaningful aside of it

 

Yeah, it's called going out and fighting people, which is the whole point of the game.

The reason why there are so many abandoned threads like this is because there is no intelligence test to limit people creating accounts and posting on this forum.

If you want busy work to do to make it feel like you are "progressing" go play one of the dozens of on-rails theme park MMO's. This game is aimed at offering a differing kind of experience, one where the players create conflict and interesting outcomes organically through their own machinations and behaviors. If you don't see a lot of that going on right now it's probably because the game is not complete and in the middle of an update drought pending the next big release.

Edited November 18, 2018 by DocHollidaze

[mystafyi 371]

3 hours ago, idoll said:

who said that?
and basically no-one is suggesting removal of the offline leveling - just suggesting something meaningful aside of it

If you watch the last QA video, it was mentioned that they are working on something to give folks with 15 min to play some way to progress. Unsure what that means though. I think that 5.8 will bring back a large number of players that are on break due to lack of game loop, new build coming soon and probable data wipe. I have to admit I have stopped logging into the game recently as well for these reasons so I am part of the problem. If the game was full of players I highly doubt you would feel the same as you currently do.

[veeshan 622]

They should make recipes drop via mobs or found within the game world.
Reason for this give people things to do during the first couple days to farm while they dont have skill to do anything.

legends of aria has something like this where you complete work orders and you will get a recipe sheet. work orders are craft 10-140 of one item u get better recipes the harder the work order is.

Edited November 18, 2018 by veeshan

[ShadowwBoi13 285]

20 minutes ago, veeshan said:

They should make recipes drop via mobs or found within the game world.
Reason for this give people things to do during the first couple days to farm while they dont have skill to do anything.

Someone who keeps better track of stuff than i do might be able to confirm this and drop the source. But i believe in one of the more recent (past few months) videos they mentioned something about Recipe Items for like a Magical Longsword (or other weapon types) that would be dropped/be found in game. I think they said it would act as kind of the between intermediate and crafted items and would be that early form of progression to hold over the crafters until they got their training up. So i think they are trying to get in the initial framework for that kinda recipe drop system in place and in testing so they could expand upon it in the future.

[veeshan 622]

They are doing that, although i thought they made more like magical weapons where they function different than there counter parts. For example a sword may do fire dmg instead of slashing along those lines. however i feel all recipes that are crrently unlocked via passive skill tree be unlocked via drops some more common than others drop wise.
This way you dont have to wait for the silly time gate content such as crafting a certain weapon and what not and gives your guild something to work toward day 1 getting ur crafters the recipes they need.
Those magic weapons scroll only have X amount of uses aswell from my understanding (they seem to be a half complated feature of the blueprint system so a stepping stone for that system since there basicly blue prints that generate from mobs instead of crafting, so there almost got all the tech for blueprints it seems)

Edited November 18, 2018 by veeshan

[BarriaKarl 1,091]

Well,  I would like to believe playing the game would be fun enough to keep people interested while their skills level. Don't forget this isn't the whole game yet so having nothing to do as of now is kinda expected, a shame for sure but expected.

That said, I still didnt get over the fact they axed the active training system. I know, that topic is dead and buried at this point, but it just seemed so much more engaging to have people rewarded for doing things repeatedly. I know some would argue that is just grinding but there s logic in someone who crafts (gathers/uses a shield) often being slightly better at it than someone who doesn't.

Slightly is the keyword. It could even be separated from the passive skills and more like a buff. Gather at least X amount for three days in a row to receive the 'diligent gatherer' buff - 5% chance of receiving a better table when rolling for mats (forgot all the proper terms -- +1 to whatever make loot tables better). Lasts a day and can be reapplied should the conditions be met again.

Would be almost like daily quests someone mentioned but more engaging and not just log-in for shinnies.

Could also limit the number of buffs a player can have so to not make it super exploitable. Grindind wouldnt make a difference since most players would get the buffs through normal playing (if they keep the objective in mind) -- Everyone would have to wait the 3 days go by anyway.

[Fox2232 5]

Having Active gain of XP for skill tree would lead into mindless time-sink. Imagine that you can have 20% more Tree XP from crafting.
 - Kids with time rule them all
 - Reason to use, therefore make bots

I think current sacrifice for character XP is demonstrating more than enough that as long as mindless activity brings some result, people will make tens of thousands of arrows. I would replace this XP gain for gain from doing. So for you, mining, skinning, crafting, dealing damage/healing in PvP, ...
No reason to bring arrow crafting/sacrifice mechanics to Skill tree.

If you have free time at your hands, but nothing to do in game (no-friends online), use that time for something else in RL.

[McTan 2,032]

Ultimately, this whole problem needs to be restated. It's not that offline progression demotivates. It's that online progression, in many games, masks the fact that the game itself is not that fun without the constant endorphin rush of "experience gain."

Crowfall is laid bare by its lack of experience gain. It makes all the fun aspects of the vision that are not implemented be glaring absences. It does not surprise me that, by all accounts, Crowfall is about to introduce a large system of in-game progress. I also hope beyond hope that their PvP-fun vision (building keeps, sieges, winning campaigns) will enter the game successfully. It's really the only long-term aspect that matters, IMO.

Without a fun game, the band-aid of in-game progression will make Crowfall another MMO with a 3-month population.

Edited November 19, 2018 by McTan

[BarriaKarl 1,091]

15 minutes ago, McTan said:

Ultimately, this whole problem needs to be restated. It's not that offline progression demotivates. It's that online progression, in many games, masks the fact that the game itself is not that fun without the constant endorphin rush of "experience gain."

Crowfall is laid bare by its lack of experience gain. It makes all the fun aspects of the vision that are not implemented be glaring absences. It does not surprise me that, by all accounts, Crowfall is about to introduce a large system of in-game progress. I also hope beyond hope that their PvP-fun vision (building keeps, sieges, winning campaigns) will enter the game successfully. It's really the only long-term aspect that matters, IMO.

Without a fun game, the band-aid of in-game progression will make Crowfall another MMO with a 3-month population.

Saying ' It's really the only long-term aspect that matters' is tricky. If you rely too much on the final payout things might become dangerous.

Some people have it in them to be dilligent and work hard for that final result but this a game and not a job. Players will want to have fun now, they will want to feel accomplished now. The 'endorphin rush' that experience gain is exactly this, a constant that makes it clear to the player he is doing something significant (even if it isn't significant at all). It is tried and true and that is why people ask for it in some form, reinventing the wheel is troublesome after all.

I have no issue with the 'in-game progress', as you called, filling the void. I do think most, if not all, progress are solely to fighters, and that would be my issue with depending solely on the game loop to provide the sense of accomplishment. Gatherers and crafters seems (to me) kinda unrelated to most of the action going on, hard to see someone remember that one new gatherer who just became able to gather greens after winning a siege. A day1 newbie with borrowed gear would feel more engaged in the siege than the gatherer that worked hard and logged the whole week.

But I still think we should wait for all systems to be online before pointing fingers.

[srathor 1,939]

Enemies and friends need to get made. You do not do that offline.
Learning the classes and discs so that you can make an informed choice, does not happen offline.
Getting the mats, knowing what is needed to get the mats, knowing people to help get mats, knowing where to go to get said mats, doesn't happen offline.  

Playing the game doesn't happen offline. 

In so many other games you level faster by doing more boring things over and over again. You want to level faster than the other guys so you can be more powerful.
In a pvp game this is the single most important thing, to be more powerful than the opponents, to let you kill them and take their poorly made socks. 
After playing another alpha game, where the leveling is once again the most important part of the power curve I can honestly say Crowfall has this part right.  No keeping up with the joneses on doing some stupid leveling exploit to get .2 tenth of a percent faster xp so you can be level 80 in 2 weeks of mindless custard grinding.

To then get to the good part. Where once folks who actually play the game finally catch up, the speedsters end up quitting because it is not "fun" anymore. 

custard that. 

Play the game.

Power comes from time, and playing the game. Knowing people, personalities meshing, teamwork, logistical skill, map knowledge from time playing in the world. 

Play the game.  

[idoll 9]

17 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

Well,  I would like to believe playing the game would be fun enough to keep people interested while their skills level. Don't forget this isn't the whole game yet so having nothing to do as of now is kinda expected, a shame for sure but expected.

Well look - they have content in game and offline leveling system, which are not in sync. I have no reason to go farm low stuff to craft poorly made socks gear if after a while I could do better without even touching the low level nodes.

And do I need to remind you that one of the core ideas in this game for PVP is farming resource, PVP DROPS! and crafting. If you lack of motivated farmers, you will lack of "player generated" PVP content.

Edited November 19, 2018 by idoll

[idoll 9]

6 hours ago, Fox2232 said:

Having Active gain of XP for skill tree would lead into mindless time-sink. Imagine that you can have 20% more Tree XP from crafting.
 - Kids with time rule them all
 - Reason to use, therefore make bots

I think current sacrifice for character XP is demonstrating more than enough that as long as mindless activity brings some result, people will make tens of thousands of arrows. I would replace this XP gain for gain from doing. So for you, mining, skinning, crafting, dealing damage/healing in PvP, ...
No reason to bring arrow crafting/sacrifice mechanics to Skill tree.

If you have free time at your hands, but nothing to do in game (no-friends online), use that time for something else in RL.

I think you went too narrow minded right there - and you are not trying to see solutions to the problem.

They could just as well generate XP caps per day. So after a one or two hour of gaming / day you would no longer progress. Or certain maximum XP cap / day.

Actually now that I said that... it would make a lot of sense and a damn good system.

So the idea;
-you can get maximum number of XP points  / day (that is just point cap)
-all activities generate XP (PVP, PVE, "farming", crafting): each of which generate XP to that specific mastery pool
-the points that you gather can be used to boost any mastery - however converting PVP xp to boost crafting would result in a loss of points (-40%)

There you have it. Your problem is solved and we created a way for players to specialize themselves with the activities they do.

BTW - should I make new topic about this to make sure that the developers have noticed this idea?
 

Edited November 19, 2018 by idoll