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idoll

Offline progression demotivates -> got nothing to do

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3 minutes ago, idoll said:

Well look - they have content in game and offline leveling system, which are not in sync. I have no reason to go farm low stuff to craft poorly made socks gear if after a while I could do better without even touching the low level nodes.

And do I need to remind you that one of the core ideas in this game for PVP is farming resource, PVP DROPS! and crafting. If you lack of motivated farmers, you will lack of "player generated" PVP content.

If victory points are continuously being won while you are sitting out, you've already lost.   Players will be fighting for the win from 15 minutes after the campaign starts.   We then get our crafters logged into the forts and holding them so that we have both the means and the ends to make our advanced white gear no matter how crappy.   Meanwhile we are gaining progress toward victory while you are not.    One of the 3 factions will get a winners share, you have a 33% chance of betting on the right horse...   by alpha you won't as the next ruleset is not faction based.   The point is that saying you will sit out is fine...   doing it is probably going to feel silly.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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5 minutes ago, Frykka said:

If victory points are continuously being won while you are sitting out, you've already lost.   Players will be fighting for the win from 15 minutes after the campaign starts.   We then get our crafters logged into the forts and holding them so that we have both the means and the ends to make our advanced white gear no matter how crappy.   Meanwhile we are gaining progress toward victory while you are not.    One of the 3 factions will get a winners share, you have a 33% chance of betting on the right horse...   by alpha you won't as the next ruleset is not faction based.   The point is that saying you will sit out is fine...   doing it is probably going to feel silly.

I feel like you think you are so good in thinking whats best for everyone. But you have proven to be very narrow minded not being able to see other aspects than you own. You need to remember that everyone has different goals - or they weight the goals differently.

You need to remember that there are people who are motivated by different things. Winning a campaign is good fun for sure, but it might not be the ultimate goal of all players. Some people have everything bet on it... some people just log in to have fun... others are motivated into progressing in their profession etc.

If you forget the motivation reasons why people log into game, then you will lose them to log into the game no more. Crafters, farmers etc. they are PVP content. Without them you will lose tons of fun and "player generated" content.

Edited by idoll

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9 minutes ago, idoll said:

I feel like you think you are so good in thinking whats best for everyone. But you have proven to be very narrow minded not being able to see other aspects than you own. You need to remember that everyone has different goals - or they weight the goals differently.

You need to remember that there are people who are motivated by different things. Winning a campaign is good fun for sure, but it might not be the ultimate goal of all players. Some people have everything bet on it... some people just log in to have fun... others are motivated into progressing in their profession etc. 

I am thinking of my entire guild, not even myself...   each role in our guild depends on the others doing their part.   Harvesters have lots to do at the beginning to set up for later progress; stockpile water, bone, grit, bloodworms and dust, at first... expanding as more skills open up.   There are necessary things to do for every profession right off the bat, and most players will PvP a lot too regardless of profession choices.  Nobody in the major guilds will be idle and waiting for skills.   I have tasks for everyone who doesn't already know what to do.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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8 minutes ago, Frykka said:

I am thinking of my entire guild

yeah... so fighting in forums over how the game should work is not about making the game better, but making it better for your guild... makes sense now

But I guess its normal... people in MMO games fight in forums to make their class / race / guild what ever aspect better. Its frustrating though, when you are trying to think the game in bigger picture. People are food for the PVP. They also pay for your fun... since the more theres money - the more there usually is fun.

Edited by idoll

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2 minutes ago, idoll said:

yeah... so fighting in forums over how the game should work is not about making the game better, but making it better for your guild... makes sense now

It human nature to work towards things that benefit you. That being said, I think you are being a little unfair towards frykka. While we have disagreed on things, he does seem to honestly want the game to be successful. 

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10 minutes ago, idoll said:

yeah... so fighting in forums over how the game should work is not about making the game better, but making it better for your guild... makes sense now

Board warrior has not yet even begun, but yes I defend the systems that I have used and like...  we cannot play real politics until the battle lines are drawn.   sure I enjoy that stuff but the point is that I like the direction the game has headed all along and every change made has been better even if I argued against it...  I trust the development and how it responds to us as testers.  No complaints here but I also have used and understood every interconnected mechanic and system and know what is still missing but planned.   It is my role to know it all backwards and forwards before launch just as yours as you stated is to evaluate whether to bring you guild in.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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1 minute ago, Frykka said:

Board warrior has not yet even begun, but yes I defend the systems that I have used and like...  we cannot play real politics until the battle lines are drawn.   sure I enjoy that stuff but the point is that I like the direction the game has headed all along and every change made has been better even if I argued against it...  I trust the development and how it responds to us as testers.  No complaints here but I also have used and understood every interconnected mechanic and system and know what is still missing but planned.   It is my role to know it all backwards and forwards before launch just as it is yours as you stated is to evaluate whether to bring you guild in.

My style for going for development is to gather information of users, their goals and anticipation and then try to understand different aspects. That is what we need now as well, since in the end you will enjoy the game more if there is more people playing it. So it comes down to trying to figure out how things could be solved that it takes account different aspects and in respect of the vision of the game. People usually tend to think that there is only one or two solutions. There is so much more of it. The reason why we cant see it is usually that most of it has not been tried before - and the situation is completely different here than other games so we cant just take one thing out of other game and say it will work here the same.

So we need to be able to think through goals - what is the goal of the player - why?... how do we balance it out so that its both fun and rewarding? There is different scenarios of the future and it usually helps more if we talk how different participants would play their role in certain scenario. 

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1 hour ago, idoll said:

I think you went too narrow minded right there - and you are not trying to see solutions to the problem.

They could just as well generate XP caps per day. So after a one or two hour of gaming / day you would no longer progress. Or certain maximum XP cap / day.

Actually now that I said that... it would make a lot of sense and a damn good system.

So the idea;
-you can get maximum number of XP points  / day (that is just point cap)
-all activities generate XP (PVP, PVE, "farming", crafting): each of which generate XP to that specific mastery pool
-the points that you gather can be used to boost any mastery - however converting PVP xp to boost crafting would result in a loss of points (-40%)

There you have it. Your problem is solved and we created a way for players to specialize themselves with the activities they do.

BTW - should I make new topic about this to make sure that the developers have noticed this idea?
 

Mindless time-sink is mindless time sink. State exactly what is meaningful Tree XP bonus over passive Tree XP for you. Is it 10% ? 20%? And if it is gained through repetitive activity like mining, crafting arrows, will you do that activity because you enjoy making 50000 arrows every day, to because there is that 10% bonus?

This is a game, not work.

Wanna spend extra time, then it should progress your character, not Tree. It would only damage game in long term.

And no, no need for new topic. I think they have seen this enough of times.

Edited by Fox2232

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2 hours ago, Fox2232 said:

Mindless time-sink is mindless time sink. State exactly what is meaningful Tree XP bonus over passive Tree XP for you. Is it 10% ? 20%? And if it is gained through repetitive activity like mining, crafting arrows, will you do that activity because you enjoy making 50000 arrows every day, to because there is that 10% bonus?

This is a game, not work.

Wanna spend extra time, then it should progress your character, not Tree. It would only damage game in long term.

And no, no need for new topic. I think they have seen this enough of times.

It is not mindless timesink, when it is about getting progression from what you like doing in the game.
So just play the game - you are not going to be left behind, since everyone could progress the same max cap.
Well why play a game in first place if you feel normal gaming is timesink? :)

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3 hours ago, idoll said:

My style for going for development is to gather information of users, their goals and anticipation and then try to understand different aspects. That is what we need now as well, since in the end you will enjoy the game more if there is more people playing it. 

You are failing to see one issue. This game will be running on unity 2018 in version 5.8. Due to this we are in an extended time playing 5.7. There have been many changes and modifications to the game over the past months that we as players have not seen. UI changes, skill changes, crafting mechanics changes, bug fixes, game loop, ect have all been made to 5.8 since it would be extremely wasteful to update a dead version(current one we are playing). By next month(5.8 drop) the forums and game will be buzzing with activity and we all can hash out changes then. 

Enjoy some RDR2 or FO76 or whatever for the next month and come back. 

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7 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

You are failing to see one issue. This game will be running on unity 2018 in version 5.8. Due to this we are in an extended time playing 5.7. There have been many changes and modifications to the game over the past months that we as players have not seen. UI changes, skill changes, crafting mechanics changes, bug fixes, game loop, ect have all been made to 5.8 since it would be extremely wasteful to update a dead version(current one we are playing). By next month(5.8 drop) the forums and game will be buzzing with activity and we all can hash out changes then. 

Enjoy some RDR2 or FO76 or whatever for the next month and come back. 

I know there are changes to come, which none of us know about yet. So might as well be these things have been addressed in the next patch. However I saw it important to raise this topic, as there are people who consider that there is no issue in first place. So the understanding of the issue needs to be there...

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Ok ive had a thought in regard for active progression since alot of people seem to have a problem, with the current passive gain.
We leave passive gain as is (Well how it works) it does need reweorked with what it offers but that another topic
But we also add a new system let call them mission for this example

Missions 
Each week in a campaign you can pic 3 missions from lets a list of say 10 random ones (they only give mission u can complete when it comes to say crafting/harvesting it will only give u those options if u have that crafting or mining in the passive skill tree) The missions will range in difficulty and will provide rewards based on difficulty and what kinda mission they are, these rewards only last during the campaign and reset after the world dies so there temporay progression so people dont get to far ahead

Some mission and rewards can be as followed.
Craft 30 Ruby rings (if your learnt the jewlery crafting tree, could reward +2 Experimentation for jewlery crafting as a reward that will last till end of campaign
Kill 75 zombies gain increase dmg agaist undead
Kill 250 of any mobs gain 2% increase drop chance from mobs
Harvest 500 iron ore Gain 1.5% drop rate of Sapphire
And so on you can do pretty much anything here and since they reset each campaign its a constantly thing for people to try and complete to build characters each campaign and you dsont need to worry bout over doing it overtime as benefits build up like the skill tree.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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1 hour ago, veeshan said:

Ok ive had a thought in regard for active progression since alot of people seem to have a problem, with the current passive gain.
We leave passive gain as is (Well how it works) it does need reweorked with what it offers but that another topic
But we also add a new system let call them mission for this example

Missions 
Each week in a campaign you can pic 3 missions from lets a list of say 10 random ones (they only give mission u can complete when it comes to say crafting/harvesting it will only give u those options if u have that crafting or mining in the passive skill tree) The missions will range in difficulty and will provide rewards based on difficulty and what kinda mission they are, these rewards only last during the campaign and reset after the world dies so there temporay progression so people dont get to far ahead

Some mission and rewards can be as followed.
Craft 30 Ruby rings (if your learnt the jewlery crafting tree, could reward +2 Experimentation for jewlery crafting as a reward that will last till end of campaign
Kill 75 zombies gain increase dmg agaist undead
Kill 250 of any mobs gain 2% increase drop chance from mobs
Harvest 500 iron ore Gain 1.5% drop rate of Sapphire
And so on you can do pretty much anything here and since they reset each campaign its a constantly thing for people to try and complete to build characters each campaign and you dsont need to worry bout over doing it overtime as benefits build up like the skill tree.

rebranding daily quests to missions is kinda cosmetic change ;)... I would rather want to see complete freedom of what activities you do... since thats how you would play the game. And you would get rewarded with XP to that specific field. Then you would not have to worry about making certain activities exactly equal... since it would drive players to stop playing PVP  for instance if the reward for PVP could be gained by crafting easier :D 

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53 minutes ago, idoll said:

rebranding daily quests to missions is kinda cosmetic change ;)... I would rather want to see complete freedom of what activities you do... since thats how you would play the game. And you would get rewarded with XP to that specific field. Then you would not have to worry about making certain activities exactly equal... since it would drive players to stop playing PVP  for instance if the reward for PVP could be gained by crafting easier :D 

Reason there a timer on them in stead of getting 30 or something at start of campaign is to allow casuals to keep pace early in the campaign they still allow for freedom to do activity cause u only have a couple to do in a period of time you wont grind through 30 of them day one of the campaign.
The rewards are based off what mission they are the combat ones would require pve/PvP to get while crafting and harvesting woudl be crafting and harvesting activity. So people wont be stopping PvP to do crafting cause it easier because that will only boost there crafting bonuses, anyone who wants to maximise there combat would be picking combat missions and PvE/PvP ing toget them done hence promoting PvP. But this alos leaves crafters and gathering something to aim for for there side of things to do that isnt combat related.
Its not neccesaiy XP your getting from these its a campaign duration buff to the vessel/character that will go away when campaign ends. Think of killing 150 mobs unlock 15AP buff for that duration of that campaign for example. You basicly unlocking buffs that last during the campaign instead of advancing passive skill gain this keeps the skill gain in line while maintaining some motivation to be out in the world advancing ur characters in other ways

Edited by veeshan

Veeshan Midst of UXA

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Here's my take on active progression rewards...   they are intrinsic in the activity.

Why do I go harvest... what is the rewards?   The materials received from the activity that have value to other players or my own progression.   I can sell them, sacrifice them, or get them crafted into a better piece of gear for my character.   I don't need another reward on top of this, a "participation award" as an extra feel good achievement.   The hundreds of materials I claim and bring back safely are my reward and it is plenty.

Why do I craft...  what is the rewards?   The gear created from the activity has intrinsic value gain over the piles of raw materials.  I can sell the gear, sacrifice it, give it to a teammate, or equip it myself.  I don't need another "participation award" to know that I have progressed.  The pieces of gear I make is my reward and it is plenty.

Why do I PvP…   what is the reward?   This is the area we have been lacking in tangible rewards, the win conditions that give the motivation to take and hold territory.  We can feel rewarded by fighting off players trying to gank our harvesting operations, feel good about a battle well fought, capture a fort so that we have access to crafting benches and better defensive position.   We can also hunt down enemy harvesters and gain the spoils off them.   With win conditions added that simply allow a higher number of exports we should have enough motivation to constantly fight.

There is no leveling and the passive skills are essentially equal for all who start playing at roughly the same time plus passive skills are a smaller percentage of net power gain.  The progression is gear based and territory/win condition based so there is plenty of motivation to harvest or craft already.   I log in to progress like everyone else or assist my team as a whole in progressing...   that is it, it is enjoyable when combined with the social interactions with friends and enemies.   This is why I find these suggestions that attempt to essentially add some "active leveling" based reward when we set out to remove active leveling rewards in favor of the intrinsic rewards of material gain, gear progression, and territory control. 

Every time that more "active reward" suggestions are made, I come back to this basic premise.   Keep it simple, let the intrinsic rewards be in and of themselves the only rewards and don't try to force a balancing act of some artificial reward system around every possible choice of activity a player could make. No matter how hard you try to make them interesting, they will give one set of player types an unequal advantage and become a source of discontent or mindless grind.

I want to win, period, so If I look at my power and see where I have a potential for upgrades, I know what I need to go do.    I need a better Vessel?   get a group mineral run going,  Bow?...  I need a crapton of quality wood; Jewelry...   grind out some cutting grit in my EK...   collect some more water from wells.   If a am not trained to do the base collection, what can I do that has value and can be traded for what I need either in direct barter or through the coin currency.   These are activities that all produce my rewards, get me closer to winning, I don't need a level ding (salivate), a ribbon or trophy, a "you've got mail" moment of temporary accomplishment or an NPC who tells me I am great.   I only need to progress toward the win and know my team is doing the same.

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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20 minutes ago, Frykka said:

Here's my take on active progression rewards...   they are intrinsic in the activity.

Why do I go harvest... what is the rewards?   The materials received from the activity that have value to other players or my own progression.   I can sell them, sacrifice them, or get them crafted into a better piece of gear for my character.   I don't need another reward on top of this, a "participation award" as an extra feel good achievement.   The hundreds of materials I claim and bring back safely are my reward and it is plenty.

Why do I craft...  what is the rewards?   The gear created from the activity has intrinsic value gain over the piles of raw materials.  I can sell the gear, sacrifice it, give it to a teammate, or equip it myself.  I don't need another "participation award" to know that I have progressed.  The pieces of gear I make is my reward and it is plenty.

Why do I PvP…   what is the reward?   This is the area we have been lacking in tangible rewards, the win conditions that give the motivation to take and hold territory.  We can feel rewarded by fighting off players trying to gank our harvesting operations, feel good about a battle well fought, capture a fort so that we have access to crafting benches and better defensive position.   We can also hunt down enemy harvesters and gain the spoils off them.   With win conditions added that simply allow a higher number of exports we should have enough motivation to constantly fight.

There is no leveling and the passive skills are essentially equal for all who start playing at roughly the same time plus passive skills are a smaller percentage of net power gain.  The progression is gear based and territory/win condition based so there is plenty of motivation to harvest or craft already.   I log in to progress like everyone else or assist my team as a whole in progressing...   that is it, it is enjoyable when combined with the social interactions with friends and enemies.   This is why I find these suggestions that attempt to essentially add some "active leveling" based reward when we set out to remove active leveling rewards in favor of the intrinsic rewards of material gain, gear progression, and territory control.   

You get better in things by doing them. In PVP you can gain progression with your own skills. so you might not notice the problem here. 

In farming you get zero progression with your actions and you are stuck with your crafting or harvesting goal... you can not do anything. Its a computer that gives you points per second - all you have to do is wait. The problem is that people will have goals with the progression the game is offering - not only to buy better gear to fight in PVP... you have to take it in consideration that it is so, and people want to be able to affect the result - FEEL the result even more than just seeing it happen. The dopamine dose... the feeling when YOU... YOURSELVE progress and are able to make a weapon of dreams.. maybe sell it on market trying to make profit to buy more resources and do another of those weapons...

I think you have balls to come claim to me that I do not understand my  goals in this game. If I have a goal to be able to farm lvl 10 nodes... I do not want to sit on my hands and wait... no... I want to do something to be able to do it. And if you claim that buying better tools is the solution... well... then I do not know why I am even playing if all I have to do it buy my way to my goal. Thats not the purpose of a game. The purpose of the game is also the journey. Not just instant gains you can get by doing nothing... 

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I'm good with leveling vessels being the form of "active" progression especially if it becomes something more interesting than attribute choices which really aren't much of a choice to begin with.

Turning in arrows to level a vessel seems like a joke. There needs to be more interesting but efficient ways to level than sacrificing junk. 

 

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1 minute ago, blazzen said:

I'm good with leveling vessels being the form of "active" progression especially if it becomes something more interesting than attribute choices which really aren't much of a choice to begin with.

Turning in arrows to level a vessel seems like a joke. There needs to be more interesting but efficient ways to level than sacrificing junk. 

 

yeah its a garbage collection simulator for the moment ;) 

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1 minute ago, idoll said:

yeah its a garbage collection simulator for the moment ;) 

The good thing about the parent stats is that they affect harvesting, crafting, and combat skills equal across the board for every player...  incrementally tiny, yes, but equal for every profession.  90 points of dex not only adds 3% crit hit, int to crit damage. Parent stats add to alchemy, necro, rune and leather skills; they add to harvest crit chance or weak spot chance/power...    it is clean, fair, and equal to all players.   Any other reward leads to balance issues.    keep it simple so we don't have later buffs and nerfs.

On top of this it is more a part of your build that a permanent reward...   like disciplines, you will upgrade vessels and redo these stats.   Any other reward I can think of to give has some advantage and works better for a particular profession or class.


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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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Just now, Frykka said:

The good thing about the parent stats is that they affect harvesting, crafting, and combat skills equal across the board for every player...  incrementally tiny, yes, but equal for every profession.  90 points of dex not only adds 3% crit hit, int to crit damage. Parent stats add to alchemy, necro, rune and leather skills; they add to harvest crit chance or weak spot chance/power...    it is clean, fair, and equal to all players.   Any other reward leads to balance issues.    keep it simple so we don't have later buffs and nerfs.

On top of this it is more a part of your build that a permanent reward...   like disciplines, you will upgrade vessels and redo these stats.   Any other reward I can think of to give has some advantage and works better for a particular profession or class.

tbh I would prefer mastry specific stats rather than general stats... this system is flawed and can be seen in many games... its impossible to find balance when people always flock to the activity that gives the best results. However in this game the stats are cosmetic, so they probably dont care much in general.

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