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idoll

Offline progression demotivates -> got nothing to do

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14 minutes ago, idoll said:

tbh I would prefer mastry specific stats rather than general stats... this system is flawed and can be seen in many games... its impossible to find balance when people always flock to the activity that gives the best results. However in this game the stats are cosmetic, so they probably dont care much in general.

Perhaps you should look again into the parent stat - child stat design...   it is anything but cosmetic.    The stats give significant gains to combat skills, crafting skills, and harvesting skills.   well, except Constitution...  the 4 hp per con is too low but the stats themselves make a huge difference when you consider a leveled up crafted vessel gives to hundreds of points of stat gain over a basic vessel...   the only way to cap out many skills is through stat gains on the vessel and stat gains from the race trees. 

Edited by Frykka

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                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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11 hours ago, idoll said:

You need to remember that there are people who are motivated by different things. Winning a campaign is good fun for sure, but it might not be the ultimate goal of all players. Some people have everything bet on it... some people just log in to have fun... others are motivated into progressing in their profession etc.

If you forget the motivation reasons why people log into game, then you will lose them to log into the game no more. Crafters, farmers etc. they are PVP content. Without them you will lose tons of fun and "player generated" content.

Then go play every other game out there that rewards you and the other people who have a plethora of time to blow on just constantly doing X and Y in game. This game isnt for you, the whole point of a Passive only system is it keep everything relatively balanced between the no lifers who play 24/7 and the people who have lives that can get maybe  5+ hours a week to game.

Crowfall's Motto is "Play To Crush" The only incentive anyone should need to play the game is to take every opportunity they have to put themselves closer to that goal weither you play 5 hours a week 20 hours a week or 80 hours a week. Fryyka's earlier post is the exact point to this. Why should you harvest early on? Because it gets you early resources which can be spent on early gear/tools/etc that can give you a small edge over your enemies (or keep you from falling behind them if they are also using their time effectively) OR at the very least its getting resources into your groups circulation that your enemies are not getting into theirs. Why should you craft early gear? Because the extra 1 Pip a slightly trained person gets over the non trained can be the difference between your enemy ending the fight in a win with 20 health left over or your enemy dieing and you surviving with 20 health left. Why should you PvP early on with basic/intermediate gear? Because once win conditions come on the choice you and your group make to take that 1 camp/fort/keep from your enemy in those first few days/weeks might end up being the few points you needed to scrape by a victory at the very end.

*post from another topic*

7 hours ago, idoll said:

You need to remember that there are people who are motivated by different things. Winning a campaign is good fun for sure, but it might not be the ultimate goal of all players. Some people have everything bet on it... some people just log in to have fun... others are motivated into progressing in their profession etc.

If you forget the motivation reasons why people log into game, then you will lose them to log into the game no more. Crafters, farmers etc. they are PVP content. Without them you will lose tons of fun and "player generated" content.

And saying that you would only progress stuff you do doesnt mean anything. Any character can do almost anything (with varying degrees of success if trained vs untrained) if they put the effort into it, all you would be doing is giving no lifers a huge advantage over everyone else because once they max out their "daily crafting bonus" they will move on to "daily harvesting bonus" then to "daily pvp bonus" which is gonna leave the people who could only complete the bonus in their main thing getting further and further behind the no lifer. And even worse than that, the people who are active members of guilds but have work or families they gotta deal with and cant complete their "daily bonus" every day are gonna slowly get left in the dust like EVERY other MMO does to them which is one of the big things crowfall is trying to avoid.

And for the last part of that quote, What is considered a normal play time? 1 Hour? 2 hours? 5 Hours? 15 Minutes? Cause guess what, alot of people might not be able to put in that much time in every single day. Then after that time is up then what? Your solution doesnt solve the problem, because the person who wouldnt wanna log in if there is no active progression wouldnt wanna stay logged in after they hit their daily cap. They obviously dont get any satisfaction from the game unless something is there to hold their hand and tell them they did a good job so why would your system of "Log in and do whatever for 1 hour to get bonus" keep that person interested for any longer then the time they have to put in for the bonus?

If your incentive to play the game isnt to just play the game, then go somewhere else and play literally any other game that wants to hold your hand and tell you what to do all the time. People came to Crowfall to get away from those types of games. The only reason you should feel you have to log into CF is because you find the game enjoyable and want to seize victory with any effort you can put forward.

Also alot of your issues in your posts seems to always point towards harvesting and such. If you dont like the harvesting system DONT BE A HARVESTER, there are plenty of other things you can do, stop trying to force your perceived disposition of harvesting onto other players. "Oh Noo My basic tools break to much and i have to replace them, this is BS, make them infinite durability" / "Oh noo, i personally dont see the value in gathering/crafting with low trained stats so i need push my own agenda for an active progression system because i need to feel verified and the game needs to give me a reason to gather/craft". If you hate it that much dont do it. Wait for 5.8 like every other person is doing and find a group with people who wanna harvest. There are plenty of harvesters in the game already and alot of them seem to not have issues with the things you seem to be having issues with.

 

Edited by ShadowwBoi13
quoted wrong initial post

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This guy will never get it, just move on. Or don't, I suppose we don't have much else to do than try to explain things to somebody who isn't interested in seeing reality.

It is entirely possible that the player-driven combat/warfare system will not be fun enough to keep people engaged 90% of the time. But since those systems are the foundational core of this game, the appropriate solution would be to make those systems more fun, as opposed to giving people more reasons to do stupid sht that has little to do with those core systems. If the vast majority of customers (players) feel the systems ARE fun and engaging, then anybody who doesn't not feel obliged or interested enough to participate in those systems probably needs to find a different game. It's mind-boggling that this has to be even pointed out to people, but again, the intelligence test lacking in forum registration rears its head.

The active training/harvesting whatever systems the ACE is working on are not intended to be parallel activities that people will do all the time mutually exclusive of ongoing PvP conflict. They are intended to give people something to do during periods of GvG downtime or when they cannot muster a group, or don't have enough time to go join a group. So again, if people don't want to engage in PvP warfare, or aren't satisfied enough by supporting a group doing so - they need to just fuking move on.

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59 minutes ago, DocHollidaze said:

This guy will never get it, just move on. Or don't, I suppose we don't have much else to do than try to explain things to somebody who isn't interested in seeing reality.

It is entirely possible that the player-driven combat/warfare system will not be fun enough to keep people engaged 90% of the time. But since those systems are the foundational core of this game, the appropriate solution would be to make those systems more fun, as opposed to giving people more reasons to do stupid sht that has little to do with those core systems. If the vast majority of customers (players) feel the systems ARE fun and engaging, then anybody who doesn't not feel obliged or interested enough to participate in those systems probably needs to find a different game. It's mind-boggling that this has to be even pointed out to people, but again, the intelligence test lacking in forum registration rears its head.

The active training/harvesting whatever systems the ACE is working on are not intended to be parallel activities that people will do all the time mutually exclusive of ongoing PvP conflict. They are intended to give people something to do during periods of GvG downtime or when they cannot muster a group, or don't have enough time to go join a group. So again, if people don't want to engage in PvP warfare, or aren't satisfied enough by supporting a group doing so - they need to just fuking move on.

Exactly. I was never trying to say that ACE should abandon putting in individual character progression. I was simply trying to say that, when the character progression is over (or so slow as to be essentially over), what will be left? For me, that is the core game for CF. The game is not a character progression system, in that character progression of all forms is supposed to be externally motivated by wanting to win campaigns.

The hypothetical that keeps coming up about players who are not motivated by the core vision of CF is a perfect example of why MMOs have been going through such a rough decade. Obviously it is true that players are motivated by different things, that is why games needs to focus on what makes them fun, and have that be what collects and keeps its core player base. This is opposed to trying to implement systems for the sake of keeping players. That layer of veneer wears off insanely fast (see: Archeage, BDO, Albion, etc.). All game designers should put their vision before thinking about audience retention, or you are putting the cart before the horse. That idiom is literally meant to say, you have to have the thing that pulls in front of the thing being pulled. In this case, the game vision and design before the audience.

I am, personally, really happy that ACE does not seem at all concerned by the current lack of community engagement and growth. But, then again, they have some great veteran designers who know a hell of a lot more than keyboard warriors like me.

Edit: Albion Online is a perfect blueprint for what not to do for CF. By all accounts they had a fantastic PvP MMO in early beta, made a ton of changes designed to "keep" players, ostensibly based on data they were getting from their beta tests, then released a dramatically changed game, flopped pretty hard, changed back, and now have a good game without the population they should have. Please, dear lord, do not overanalyze or commit to player data from testing. It's a totally different situation. I, for one, play entirely different schedules and goals with games that are not released.

Edited by McTan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Admittedly I didn't read every post here but I kind of agree with OP. Mostly because of the ever-present "Alt Problem".

Games like WoW never really had the “alt” problem. I played a mage and took tailoring, I totally needed jewels and such because they are such a big part of the game but it never occurred to me to get an alt, why? Because I didn’t want to spend the time training a whole new character. Even more so, the crap you needed to train was higher level so you essentially ended up leveling a whole new toon. Maybe that was still what some people did who had the time to spend but not me and I feel like not for the majority of people. It took time AND effort to train. ( for Wow, mostly effort).

In CF I can get 20 alts and have them all train at the same time and progress at the same level, so long as I keep up with it. No need to even jump into the game. I think what we may be missing is the effort part.

I don’t know what this mechanic could be, there are many way to go. Extra time awarded for crafting/harvesting/fighting in game. Cap raises? When in game and active your training time increases by 1%. Maybe when in active combat, harvesting or crafting it boost by 2% or some crap like that.

My Suggestion:

The short of it is that it might add an interesting twist if there is more to be had, however minor, when actually playing the game vs just completely passive training.

 

Edited by Brightdance

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