Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
ACE_JackalBark

The Talent System - Official Discussion Thread

Recommended Posts

So, it's not made clear from the article... but apparently the race/class time based training trees are being removed. I thought this was a system on top of the time based training stuff. This certainly changes things... for the better I think. I'm not big on time based training anyway. Still, that's kind of an important thing that was not clearly messaged out.


Guild Leader of Seeds of War

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Svenn said:

So, it's not made clear from the article... but apparently the race/class time based training trees are being removed. I thought this was a system on top of the time based training stuff. This certainly changes things... for the better I think. I'm not big on time based training anyway. Still, that's kind of an important thing that was not clearly messaged out.

passive training is still there for profession and everyone can train two at once regardless of non vip or vip


caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That story tells me one thing:  rangers will get stealth. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't tell if I am going to love or hate this.  On one hand, it greatly increases customization and potentially character variety/uniqueness, which is fantastic.  On the other hand, it drives CF yet another step away from the promise of "eternal heroes."   Minimizing time based progression so that we can have, even more, temporary item based progression isn't a great selling point for me.  However, it all really depends how they handle vessels, I suppose.   If I can keep the same vessel with the same talent progression, and not have it wear out/break/looted/ etc., and use it in campaign after campaign, then perhaps my concerns are mostly unwarranted.  

 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Durin said:

I can't tell if I am going to love or hate this.  On one hand, it greatly increases customization and potentially character variety/uniqueness, which is fantastic.  On the other hand, it drives CF yet another step away from the promise of "eternal heroes."   Minimizing time based progression so that we can have, even more, temporary item based progression isn't a great selling point for me.  However, it all really depends how they handle vessels, I suppose.   If I can keep the same vessel with the same talent progression, and not have it wear out/break/looted/ etc., and use it in campaign after campaign, then perhaps my concerns are mostly unwarranted.  

 

They've confirmed this is the case- the big driver of new vessels is (A) seeking higher-quality vessels for more stats and (B) trying out different builds (as changing talents & disciplines requires making a new character).  Once you have a build and vessel quality you're satisfied with, there's no reason for you to ever make a new one if you don't want to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, canvox said:

They've confirmed this is the case- the big driver of new vessels is (A) seeking higher-quality vessels for more stats and (B) trying out different builds (as changing talents & disciplines requires making a new character).  Once you have a build and vessel quality you're satisfied with, there's no reason for you to ever make a new one if you don't want to.

As long as this is the case, then I think it is a change for the better--though I am concerned that re-leveling the same character type over and over again for a few stat points seems a bit repetitive, even punitive.  We'll have to see how to works out. If, in the future, if ACE decides it needs to double down on Necromancy at the expense of "eternal heroes", I suppose we will part ways.  I am looking forward to messing around with builds.    


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a good balance lever but I wonder if having discs not grant talent points to use them is a step too far?

I mean we could have a shadowbane style meta for discs where the entire class train system is so full of goods that it only makes sense to skip some of them, but I'd hate to fall in to a system where players find not trying to fill every disc slot is an optimal choice, since the disc system is a theoretically large portion of the disc economy and eventually the day to day adventuring loop.

I hope this setup doesn't have the end effect of making discs feel optional when compared to what's on offer in the base talents.


PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Durin said:

I can't tell if I am going to love or hate this.  On one hand, it greatly increases customization and potentially character variety/uniqueness, which is fantastic.  On the other hand, it drives CF yet another step away from the promise of "eternal heroes."   Minimizing time based progression so that we can have, even more, temporary item based progression isn't a great selling point for me.  However, it all really depends how they handle vessels, I suppose.   If I can keep the same vessel with the same talent progression, and not have it wear out/break/looted/ etc., and use it in campaign after campaign, then perhaps my concerns are mostly unwarranted.  

 

Article

Quote

 You can use one vessel forever or have a few that you switch between. It’s all up to you!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

This is a good balance lever but I wonder if having discs not grant talent points to use them is a step too far?

I mean we could have a shadowbane style meta for discs where the entire class train system is so full of goods that it only makes sense to skip some of them, but I'd hate to fall in to a system where players find not trying to fill every disc slot is an optimal choice, since the disc system is a theoretically large portion of the disc economy and eventually the day to day adventuring loop.

I hope this setup doesn't have the end effect of making discs feel optional when compared to what's on offer in the base talents.

I feel this is a totally valid and warranted opinion if only because the changes do seemingly devalue Disciplines. In the previous iterations, most of the class-based powers contained a great number of skippable ones, that few people would take. Similarly, disciplines had a large role to play in the overall customization aspect because largely there was a very narrow selection of "good" disciplines for each build (typically two to four). This meant that players had enough choices to fill in all of the power slots, even if the Disciplines weren't exactly supporting the players "build" (because players didn't really have builds...).

Instead of builds, players took Discs for survivability or extra DPS. Those aren't builds as far as I'm concerned, those are just "nice to haves". The talent system is where "builds" truly make an entrance because of the need to make a semi-permanent and costly choice. That wasn't really an aspect to the Discipline system (at least not because of the cost component right now).

Now that the burden is on the Disciplines to prove themselves and that the Talents seemingly are offering a larger degree of flexibility AND specialization (simultaneously mind you), it seems as if Disciplines will truly need to "wow" a player to make the cut. It'll be interesting to see if any of the old Disciplines can live up to the high standards offered by Talents.

The design choice that made Disciplines no longer replaceable (once you insert them, you are stuck with them unless you make a new vessel...) has really tossed out the idea of experimenting and customizing your character on the fly. In its place, we have a rigid, costly (in both time and resources) means to hit the reset button on our characters. It's a tough position to be in because I do like the customization offered up by this approach.

To solve this, you ultimately need to make Disciplines "replaceable" and more accessible than they might have been without the Talent system. You want players to invest in these and you want them to experiment with them. The current system just makes everything so time-consuming to test and experiment with. I'm not sure if that's good for anyone.

Edited by Scree

Obsidian-ForumSignature.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im alpha 2 so i havent been able to look at the new system. So this is just a uneducated suggestion based off the small amount ive read up on so far.

But id suggest removing Discipline unlock slots from the talent tree and just letting people have all slots (or at least put them as separate parts of the tree that you can unlock whenever, so a person would only need to gain the first 4-6 levels to unlock them rather than haveing to go down the line and find the nodes that offer them) while still allowing slotting a discipline to add new trees to the talent tree. Then have the Disciplines have their own levels (not tied to the character level) that the player can advance (through combat xp/sacrifice or whatever other ways to level them someone can think of) that cap at like level 10, so that even with disciplines you still have to pick and choose how you wanna spend your discipline points within your discipline tree.

This way players can still get the main utility out of their disciplines (the powers/passives/ other bonuses) but still have the option to level the disc for marginal boosts or w/e is in discipline trees. And if a person does feel like changing discs at some point, they dont have to wipe an entire character to do it. They just break the one they have equipped and replace it with a new level 1 disc. This also solves any issues that might come up with a level 25 person spending 5 Talent points on the discipline trees then removing the discipline, because the discipline talent points would be separate from normal level advancement talent points, so a person could be level 25 with 25 "Vessel talent Points" and have a level 10 Major with 10 "*Insert Disc Name Here* Talent Points" and 2 level 5 minors each with 5 of their own "*Insert Disc Name Here* Talent Points".

 

Edited by ShadowwBoi13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Yumx said:

I don't like that we have to re-level to test new builds, such an unnecessary time sink.

Give us some kind of talent/discipline reset mechanic, so we don't have to lvl all 30 god damn levels again.

I agree there, but i need to see how the crafted items are contributing to the XP curve before jumping on the forks and torchs :D

If crafted items contribute to annihilate the need of PVE (for wich i did not backed Crowfall) i'm ok with it, even more if others activities give you xp too (exploration, capture, etc...)


WnxjrJ9.gif

Thelanas Kar'Pal Membre fondateur de l'alliance Naerth en 2001 - Ex Shadowbane European Advisor Damnation/Carnage/Vindication/Corruption http://www.twitch.tv/gorwald/profile

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

talent q: regarding "multiple talent nodes" for each disc [up to 4] does this mean if i took bard i'd only get 1 song per node [free choice or pre determined order]

-

race q: with removal of race skill trees, will you revisit some of the more...lacklustre race benefits such as half-elf?


caldera_forum_banner_wings.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the XP curve on white vessels has changed dramatically.  I didn't get in on the test fast enough, but IIRC a guild mate said he got to level three in under 15 minutes.

Since they can control the speed at which you level by vessel quality, if it becomes grindy it should be trivial to make a white vessel level super fast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also quick question. Arent Disciplines supposed to eventually be worked into Runecrafting and be  craftable with an actual resource cost? So with the current set up of not being able to remove disciplines, wouldnt that mean any time someone was finally able to get a better stat Disc they would have to completely remake their character and remake every single discipline they already had? Then after that have to re level their vessel just to be able to slot in the discs? 

Edited by ShadowwBoi13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

This is a good balance lever but I wonder if having discs not grant talent points to use them is a step too far?

I mean we could have a shadowbane style meta for discs where the entire class train system is so full of goods that it only makes sense to skip some of them, but I'd hate to fall in to a system where players find not trying to fill every disc slot is an optimal choice, since the disc system is a theoretically large portion of the disc economy and eventually the day to day adventuring loop.

I hope this setup doesn't have the end effect of making discs feel optional when compared to what's on offer in the base talents.

I agree that I'd hate to see most disc slots go unfilled simply because class talents are more attractive. This could potentially reduce build variety and become a significant drawback to the talent system.

But consider the potential up side: now that there's an opportunity cost to using discs, ACE is free to make them a lot more powerful. I hope they go that route. If discs are powerful but costly, including them would be an actual choice you'd have to weigh, unlike before when they were just a 'free' bonus every build included.

Edited by Avloren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dislike having to level characters in order to become marginally effective.  Starting off with no powers is foolish in a game that promised us no leveling grind.  Todd says "You can level a white vessel to 30 in a couple of days and a legendary one in a few weeks" as if that's supposed to be fast.  I can level a WoW toon from 1-120 in less than a week, easily.  So Crowfall's "no grind" selling point is out the door.

The concept of the talent trees is good.  It's the implementation that sucks.

No disciplines until lvl 7ish.  You don't finish a build until lvl 30.  The fast leveling from sacrificing arrows has been nerfed (arrow stacks of 100 are now worth 10 instead of 100, which would have been fine in 5.7 when lvl 1 characters were actually playable and competitive).

Promotion classes and OR gates in the talent trees are great.  Moving all the basic powers and disciplines into the talent tree is not.

 

Edit:  As a die-hard knight,   I'm also concerned that none of the knight builds has any self-sustain.  Secutor is harder to kill but brings no value or threat to a fight.  Classic case of "kill that guy last - he's no threat to us, but takes time to drop."

Edited by Durenthal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...