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ACE_JackalBark

The Talent System - Official Discussion Thread

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19 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

INo disciplines until lvl 7ish.  You don't finish a build until lvl 30.  The fast leveling from sacrificing arrows has been nerfed (arrow stacks of 100 are now worth 10 instead of 100, which would have been fine in 5.7 when lvl 1 characters were actually playable and competitive).

Promotion classes and OR gates in the talent trees are great.  Moving all the basic powers and disciplines into the talent tree is not.

yea i would have hoped for extra class level options and choices [vs the 'minimum viable powers' and the disc heavy focus] rather than current gating and trimming.

yet to see how it flows first hand, but a sacrifice/spark druid sounds painful ;p

still unclear to me if we have to invest say 4 points [so 2 levels] into a major disc to unlock all elements e.g. bard rune: do i only get 1 song per node?

Edited by Tinnis

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24 minutes ago, Durenthal said:

I dislike having to level characters in order to become marginally effective.  Starting off with no powers is foolish in a game that promised us no leveling grind.  Todd says "You can level a white vessel to 30 in a couple of days and a legendary one in a few weeks" as if that's supposed to be fast.  I can level a WoW toon from 1-120 in less than a week, easily.  So Crowfall's "no grind" selling point is out the door.

The concept of the talent trees is good.  It's the implementation that sucks.

No disciplines until lvl 7ish.  You don't finish a build until lvl 30.  The fast leveling from sacrificing arrows has been nerfed (arrow stacks of 100 are now worth 10 instead of 100, which would have been fine in 5.7 when lvl 1 characters were actually playable and competitive).

Promotion classes and OR gates in the talent trees are great.  Moving all the basic powers and disciplines into the talent tree is not.

 

Edit:  As a die-hard knight,   I'm also concerned that none of the knight builds has any self-sustain.  Secutor is harder to kill but brings no value or threat to a fight.  Classic case of "kill that guy last - he's no threat to us, but takes time to drop."

Um that's not levels, thats spend points, you get 3 points per level with a white vessel.

From this link I counted 9 points (1+5+1+1+1) to get to the first discipline slot, so level 3, and I think if you don't max out the 5 you could get there in 2.

I do agree they probably need to add more into the base kit of any class to make them at least viable.  

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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6 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Um that's not levels, thats spend points, you get 3 points per level with a white vessel.

You get 3 attribute points per level (white quality), 2 talent points (3 at levels 15 & 30).

Edited by moneda

Hi, I'm moneda.

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Just now, moneda said:

You get 3 attribute points per level (white quality), 2 talent points (3 at levels 15 &30).

I stand corrected.  Still lets you get to one by level 3 if there is no minimum gate on the second yellow circle.  Can't recall if that is the case or not.

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I think that the 'pendulum' is on the other side now - no matter the speed. 

A start character should have 2-3 combat skills right to start with. The rest can be in the talents. 

Maybe give exp from gathering and crafting as well - to ease the exp intake.

@testing stuff - with the number of options ahead it will be impossible to test all variations so it will be as promised a continue work to balance things as players find ways to break the system - this only means that we are getting closer to launch so don't be upset on the toys that get taken away and get put behind progression.

Edited by KDSProm

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Recruitment Post - Guild Recruiting and Management - #warstory
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perhaps a simple tweak

remove the extra +1 talent points at level 15 and level 30 and instead a level 1 character starts with 2 talent points to spend? [so still total of 60 points]

;p

Edited by Tinnis

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I think the easiest solution would be to grant “basic” versions of the powers granted in the pre-promotion talents at lvl 1, and the talents just make them what they’re supposed to be once you get to that talent. I don’t like not having powers until I level, but I like having powers/upgrades granted through the talent tree, so this seems like an acceptable middle ground, imo at least.

 

(I say easy because Blair has bragged in the past how quickly they can make powers, plus if the powers are already done, they don’t  need to have new animations/vfx)


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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Just when I think you couldn't possibly be any dumber, you go and do something like this... And totally redeem yourself!

 

All joking aside this seems awesome.

The impact to disciplines does raise some concerns though, as the possible demand for a tracker archetype seems lessened by this announcement. Am I misinterpreting that piece?

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Are you guys taking into account outside help and preparation  when saying leveling everytime sucks?

How fast is leveling when friends with high level carries you? How about stockingpiling high level trash to sacrifice when you need to re-level?

I agree with the very first vessel getting some free talents to really help a player's start (A tutorial on talents would also be great to newbies) but otherwise I think re-spec'ing should be punitive and requiring some work from players seems good enough to me. IMO a player should prepare to the eventual respec and not start from zero everytime.

I will be honestly surprised if just the trash you normally accumulate while playing isn't able to bring players above the minimum playable threshold.

'Ah, but what about legendary vessels? TBlair said it will take... many days to level those', you might say. Well, altho I would like Blair confirmation on this, I believe those metrics are based on the most normal playstyle possible. Normal. BUT this aint no kids game, playing normally wont be getting anyone legendary resources for many months (Years?).

I believe those metrics dont take into account no-lifers who play 25/7, but it also shouldnt take into account a guild's resources. Or just good and old smart planning really.

You guys are too absorbed into the testing gimmicks and forgetting how things will really play out in game. Complaining that Discs are now locked just shows how used you guys are to everything being easy in the tests.

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On 11/21/2018 at 1:04 AM, Yumx said:

I don't like that we have to re-level to test new builds, such an unnecessary time sink.

Give us some kind of talent/discipline reset mechanic, so we don't have to lvl all 30 god damn levels again.

You mean like in the vast majority of other MMOs through all of time?

Back in Shadowbane, the level cap went as high as 70+ eventually, but it was fast enough that nobody complained. Here, it seems like leveling will be even faster and to a lower cap. You could make a new toon and level cap them in a weekend back when. I don't see this as an issue.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Pre-alpha <--this is where we are. If your complaint is that the game don't not works good, come back later.

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Would definitely like to see a campaign where you can only start with a white vessel and could only use vessels made within the campaign. Each new campaign would mean, new vessels!

Passives should work their way to unlocking talents. The talent would have a "locked symbol" until you train it in the passive tree. It would also be a neat idea if some talents could only be unlocked by the quality of the vessels.  Are stats the only different between quality in vessels? Seems a little bland, why tie talents to the vessels at all?  Do passives still add a lot of stats?

As time goes on, hopefully the game won't have a straight vertical progression. Looking for a rock,paper, scissor,.. not pebble, rock , boulder

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On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:05 AM, Tinnis said:

yea i would have hoped for extra class level options and choices [vs the 'minimum viable powers' and the disc heavy focus] rather than current gating and trimming.

yet to see how it flows first hand, but a sacrifice/spark druid sounds painful ;p

still unclear to me if we have to invest say 4 points [so 2 levels] into a major disc to unlock all elements e.g. bard rune: do i only get 1 song per node?

I think so which also means as your talent out the build you are making choices of when to add more value to your slotted disc, you have 60 talent points, choose wisely.   Discs being locked in on the vessel is what makes a Necro and Rune crafter not cry foul.   Choices matter and can cost you but only on builds you have already played through in a starter vessel...  starter vessels have been buffed so the jump from white to crafted is not so drastic.
 


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I'm just looking at the most efficient early sacrifice model, and it seems that early game small campfires from the survivalist line are the way to go, if your not into fighting early.

I was able to get about 30 wood in 5 minutes, or 6 wood/minute. 

That converts to 1 campfire every two minutes.

Campfires are worth 126 XP.  Level one is 228 XP, or two campfires.

Not sure how fast the leveling scales up, but if you want to run with minimum import slots, make a stack of 20 campfires in your EK, and import once, for 2522 XP. I would expect that to get you to the minimum 8 points (4 levels) needed to unlock both a minor and major discipline slot. (I used Assassin as my template).

That took me about 40 minutes or so, and that's not counting the apples, dust, and grubs. If you use higher level critter killing, the NPC vendors and white wood, it's probably faster, but that's a bit of chicken and egg.

I can totally see a market for selling stacks of campfires from surplus wood for people to buy for leveling up.

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4 hours ago, Impossum said:

Would definitely like to see a campaign where you can only start with a white vessel and could only use vessels made within the campaign. Each new campaign would mean, new vessels!

I'd like one where you can't import anything.  Similar to Path of Exile events.

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8 hours ago, Impossum said:

Would definitely like to see a campaign where you can only start with a white vessel and could only use vessels made within the campaign. Each new campaign would mean, new vessels!

Passives should work their way to unlocking talents. The talent would have a "locked symbol" until you train it in the passive tree. It would also be a neat idea if some talents could only be unlocked by the quality of the vessels.  Are stats the only different between quality in vessels? Seems a little bland, why tie talents to the vessels at all?  Do passives still add a lot of stats?

As time goes on, hopefully the game won't have a straight vertical progression. Looking for a rock,paper, scissor,.. not pebble, rock , boulder

How would this work? Where would you actually get to see a benefit when you win a campaign if you cant carry over vessels? I think this is a topic that I haven't looked into much yet - but what will see continuous progression over time other than the passive skill tree and your personal EK? Will there be guild EKs or something like that?

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7 hours ago, Zage said:

I'd like one where you can't import anything.  Similar to Path of Exile events.

thats "the dregs" world rules. for items anyway, would need clarification on if you can take a vessel in. i'd assume vessels would have to be new there too.

Edited by Tinnis

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8 hours ago, Zage said:

I'd like one where you can't import anything.  Similar to Path of Exile events.

Export only.

Quote

How would this work? Where would you actually get to see a benefit when you win a campaign if you cant carry over vessels? I think this is a topic that I haven't looked into much yet - but what will see continuous progression over time other than the passive skill tree and your personal EK? Will there be guild EKs or something like that?

Depends if you value doing anything in EKs. You could easily take that stuff into campaigns with import rules. Personal EKs would become guild EKs if they are large enough. You couldn't use the same vessels in this lower band ladder campaign, but could use it in another higher band campaign. Of course if you had no interest in those you would just free up a slot, when needed.

Guessing Artcraft is going to make the cost of respeccing, the cost building a new vessel. Sounds good to me. Maybe each campaign we will re level, this will make lower quality vessels still valuable at the start of a campaign. Due to faster leveling.

Perhaps you could send a vessel into some kind of hall of fame, it's gone but you can just sorta look at it in EKs? Speculate ho!

Edited by Impossum

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1 hour ago, Tinnis said:

thats "the dregs" world rules. for items anyway, would need clarification on if you can take a vessel in. i'd assume vessels would have to be new there too.

That's some dregs not all.  This isn't a game about hard rules for every world, this is a game about options. Some dregs will be clean, and some will have imports.

After years of mental abuse by other MMO's, some people are having a really hard time making that paradigm shift. Some are also of the mind to try to impose their view of the best game rules on everybody else. 

That's not the right way to look at CF.

Basically if a ruleset sounds like it could work without breaking the universe economy, ACE will probably give it a go. And because of import/export options and decay, it's going to be really hard to do permanent damage to the economy.

If a certain rule set appeals to enough people to play more than once, then it will most likely enter some sort of rotation.

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HOW OPEN ARE YOU TO TRYING NEW IDEAS WITHIN CAMPAIGNS?

Our intention is to make this a community-driven process. We’ll take the best ideas we find, wherever they come from, and give them a shot.

If an idea gains enough traction and fits within the architecture, we’ll try it.

You want to try a world without magic? Cool.
You want to try a world where we introduce cannons as a siege weapon? Sounds interesting.
You want to try a world where each character only has one life – meaning that if you die once, you are permanently banned from the World? Sure, let’s do it.

That’s the cool thing about this development approach: we’re turning our community into a massive, game-designing hivemind.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Exactly.  I'd like to see more of the campaign events that ACE and the community come up with.  Why wouldn't they be open to trying them out and wouldn't it be fairly easy for them to setup as some point?

I hope the dregs does not allow player crafted vessels because I consider that an import.

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and they've talked about potential extreme rulesets like say "no metal in the world" or restricting to only certain races e.g. "monsters only" etc

will be cool to see how far they take more extreme or one off 'world modifiers' and their combinations

Edited by Tinnis

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