Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Recommended Posts

I don't think any of that is really necessary.  Players won't enter a CW assigned to a specific POI cluster, they will scout and locate a place to plant.  It's quite possible that one group misses a strategic opportunity on the mountain above them because they wandered too far around and away from it, while another group stumbles across it while scouting down the middle, and seizes it.

 

They've got to start somewhere, though. When I say that a team "gets" something, I don't mean necessarily that they start with a stronghold. It's just basic strategy-game map design. Which, despite this being an MMO, it is also very much a strategy game. You can't start one team in the corner of the map that has all the mines in it, and start the other team in the opposite corner. So, yes, some degree of control over that is necessary. "Random" doesn't handle it, because random means that there's no pattern whatsoever to any of the POI spawns.


This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Along with your mining concept we will need some sort of government authority who will have a agency who will issue regulations to insure miners properly disposes of the toxic mine waste and of course we will need government inspectors who will check up on the miners and their corporate greed generated mine waste.

Which then brings in government taxing and collections to pay for the Mine Waste Disposal Investigations Agency.

The more I think on this, I think the Mine Waste Disposal Investigations Agency will probably require you to file a environment impact statement and require you to apply for, and receive a permit before you start any mining procedures.

Excuse me sir, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you, may I see your permit. Oh, you don't have a permit, that will be a $5000 fine for operating without a permit for each violation, each day of operation constitutes a separate violation. How many days did you say you have been mining?


Obsidian-ForumSignature.jpg

 

@Obsidian_Guild - Covert Stealth Operation Specialists -  http://theobsidian.co

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really hope we can hire laborers from the towns to mine ore, chop wood, and cut stone block. Then players can spend more time in PvP and Crafting as is their wont. 

 

That said, a player with mining skill should have equal prospecting skill, in case we can find veins of ore and dig new mines.

 

Extracting ore from a mine should also produce some stone resource as well as a by-product. Another additional benefit to mining veins of ore is that it hollows out potentially useful structures. We will also need to consume lumber as the mine progresses to shore up the ceilings.

 

my take on what has been said about POI is that they will be cranking out the basics of what is required to build structures and defense, therefore making it important to hold them to build.  It was stated in the interviews that player harvesting actions will create one type of resource that could be turned into another type by combining it.  This combined resource is what is used to build where the character harvested resource is used to craft.  So the quarry would be producing stone, the mines would be producing iron (or something equally simple for construction.)  This leaves the meaningful materials for crafting would have to be found by players.  So get out your pickaxe, we may all have to strike some rocks if we want to be geared come winter.

 

Like so many things, I'm not sure this is how it is.  But thats my impression of what I have heard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just hope the POI resource generation is at least more complex than "a unit of ore just gets spat out of this structure at you every 3 seconds, and you stand there and 'absorb' it into your inventory." The player, ideally, should have SOME control over making the process go faster or slower, better or worse, etc. Some kind of interaction beyond "We just wait while it automatically gives us items."

 

I realize fighting will often be conducted over these points, but the simplistic nature of "item geyser" POIs will still have that part of the fighting (trying to still get resources while you fight) really, really simplistic and probably less interesting than it could've been. In a game like this, the more things that are affected by player interaction, the better. Walls and structures should be able to build better/quicker with effort, rather than just "We have the resources. CLICK! Produced a wall!" (for example), so gathering resources shouldn't be any different.


This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just hope the POI resource generation is at least more complex than "a unit of ore just gets spat out of this structure at you every 3 seconds, and you stand there and 'absorb' it into your inventory." The player, ideally, should have SOME control over making the process go faster or slower, better or worse, etc. Some kind of interaction beyond "We just wait while it automatically gives us items."

 

I realize fighting will often be conducted over these points, but the simplistic nature of "item geyser" POIs will still have that part of the fighting (trying to still get resources while you fight) really, really simplistic and probably less interesting than it could've been. In a game like this, the more things that are affected by player interaction, the better. Walls and structures should be able to build better/quicker with effort, rather than just "We have the resources. CLICK! Produced a wall!" (for example), so gathering resources shouldn't be any different.

 

Thiiiiis rubs me the wrong way, somehow... in theory this all sounds well and good, but I have a hard time imagining it would turn out anything but pointlessly tedious. The first time you might find it cool. I can't imagine the novelty lasting. Tasks created to be busywork are going to feel like busywork.

 

If these things are manned by thralls, then I could accept allowing players to provide a manual thrall role if you were short on them or wanted to expedite things slightly. Making it mandatory, on the other hand... oof.

Edited by bearmans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ More tedious than standing around, automagically "gathering" resources?

 

I understand the immediate mental image of having to FPS-aim your pickaxe at a rock or something, and click every single time to swing. But, there are a lot of different ways to do it that aren't that, and I'm quite certain there's a more-fun way to do it than "Just watch your character do stuff while you drink soda and watch a movie."

 

As has been said a billion times now, if you watched your character fight, and gave it no input, everyone would complain about how lame combat was, and DEMAND active combat. But, the second it's something that never gets any TLC as a designed system in an MMO, it's just inherently a lame task, and it's in no way because it just consists of waiting. The problem comes from designing a system around HAVING to do the exact same thing over and over and over and over, for hours on end, then simply making it active. You have to design it around being active.

 

That, and active doesn't mean "click-to-swing," like I said. Just, having SOME amount of control over what's going on with the gathering process would be infinitely better than "The mine is pooping ore out into my satchel."


This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ More tedious than standing around, automagically "gathering" resources?

 

I understand the immediate mental image of having to FPS-aim your pickaxe at a rock or something, and click every single time to swing. But, there are a lot of different ways to do it that aren't that, and I'm quite certain there's a more-fun way to do it than "Just watch your character do stuff while you drink soda and watch a movie."

 

As has been said a billion times now, if you watched your character fight, and gave it no input, everyone would complain about how lame combat was, and DEMAND active combat. But, the second it's something that never gets any TLC as a designed system in an MMO, it's just inherently a lame task, and it's in no way because it just consists of waiting. The problem comes from designing a system around HAVING to do the exact same thing over and over and over and over, for hours on end, then simply making it active. You have to design it around being active.

 

That, and active doesn't mean "click-to-swing," like I said. Just, having SOME amount of control over what's going on with the gathering process would be infinitely better than "The mine is pooping ore out into my satchel."

 

Yes. It is more tedious. Interfacing with gathering is a fundamentally dull task. The least tedious way I can imagine to gather would be to press a single button and go watch a movie while your character interacts with a mine. 

 

Why do people complain about boring, auto-attack combat? Because combat, conceptually, is not just swinging a sword over and over. The act of mining is breaking rocks off of other rocks. It is not a mentally engaging task. If you want to make a convincing argument that it could be fun, I think the burden of proof is thoroughly in your court. How do you imagine "active gathering"? It's one thing if you want to talk about rare resources which require exploration to find, or are defended by something interesting, etc. But the fun from those comes from the auxiliary activity (exploration, combat) and not the task of gathering itself. 

 

The piles upon piles of basic commodities like lumber or stone? Having to gather those yourself is not interesting. At best, it feels cathartic, the feeling of amassing a pile of goods. At worst, you're spending time that you'd much rather spend doing other things but have to spend on something with zero interactivity as a barrier to entry. It's the same thing as having to grind mobs.

 

Controlling the gathering process insofar as deciding "how" (for instance, choosing how fast vs. how safe your workers mine) and "what" (self-explanatory) is fine, and even interesting. Having to actually smack some stones yourself, though? I just don't see what there is to get enthusiastic about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i wonder how deep the worlds will be how long to mine all the way to the bottom?

 

i really hope we can dig down pretty deep it would be amazing to have something like the deep roads from dragonage players using them as supply lines

Edited by jakeman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. It is more tedious. Interfacing with gathering is a fundamentally dull task. The least tedious way I can imagine to gather would be to press a single button and go watch a movie while your character interacts with a mine. 

 

Why do people complain about boring, auto-attack combat? Because combat, conceptually, is not just swinging a sword over and over. The act of mining is breaking rocks off of other rocks. It is not a mentally engaging task. If you want to make a convincing argument that it could be fun, I think the burden of proof is thoroughly in your court. How do you imagine "active gathering"? It's one thing if you want to talk about rare resources which require exploration to find, or are defended by something interesting, etc. But the fun from those comes from the auxiliary activity (exploration, combat) and not the task of gathering itself. 

 

The piles upon piles of basic commodities like lumber or stone? Having to gather those yourself is not interesting. At best, it feels cathartic, the feeling of amassing a pile of goods. At worst, you're spending time that you'd much rather spend doing other things but have to spend on something with zero interactivity as a barrier to entry. It's the same thing as having to grind mobs.

 

Controlling the gathering process insofar as deciding "how" (for instance, choosing how fast vs. how safe your workers mine) and "what" (self-explanatory) is fine, and even interesting. Having to actually smack some stones yourself, though? I just don't see what there is to get enthusiastic about.

First of all, no it isn't fundamentally boring/tedious. You're whipping that conclusion out of thin air. In RPG combat, you're just reducing your opponent's HP to 0. There just happens to be more to that than swinging a sword over and over. Why? They didn't just dig a combat system out of the ground at an archaeological dig site. They design it that way themselves! That's why combat doesn't suck! Sure, it's easier to imagine fun and interesting variety in combat mechanics than it is in gathering mechanics, but that doesn't mean anything you do is just going to be thwacking a big rock into smaller chunks, purely based on how long you spend standing there swinging your pickaxe and how many times you've swung it. For the matter of combat, what is siege? "Oh, you're just knocking a wall into smaller chunks." Okay, so sieging should be automatic. We just move a siege engine up to the city, then there's a progress bar, and at the end of it, the city's defenses are gone. Oh wait, that can actually be exciting and enjoyable? But you're attacking an inanimate object! How can that be?!

 

Secondly, I'm not trying to draw a direct comparison between the two things. I'm not saying everyone who loves combat will want to go gather things all the time. Or that gathering ore from a node will be AS engaging and fun as a 100-vs-100 guild battle in a field, or a city siege. Just fundamentally, 0% control over something is wayyyyyy worse than even 5% control over it. Gathering could still have a lot of passive qualities to it. But you could still allow it to be more engaging than 0%. There's the potential for skills like surveying. Maybe the mine automatically mines, but you've got to explore it and find new nodes for it to mine? Even just THAT (especially with voxel tech in play) would be better than "Okay guys! We found a mine! Gather round and be showered with ore!" I wouldn't want to find a stronghold build site, then have everyone just stand around and defend it whilst it builds itself. Or, like I said, the siege weapons. Why shouldn't ANYTHING -- in a game that's all about some PvP conflict -- have an entirely passive process? The excuse being "Oh, you have to defend/fight over that POI." Well, that's great, but, you were already fighting and defending things, even if that POI wasn't a thing in the game." I'd rather have to do something WHILE defending the place. Just something. Not eighty-billion things. Just more than stand-and-wait.

 

Finally, having the ability to manually engage in the gathering process in no way means that it would be mandatory 24/7. If you so choose, you could just let the thing auto-mine. Maybe you miss out on the potential for slightly better quality ores (at a mine), and/or you don't really get to optimize its production? Things like that. You miss out on some control, but its' not worth the extra effort to you, so, *shrug*. It's a win-win. Some other people there would like to do something active in the gathering process? Then they can do that. You can just stand there the whole hour and get your ore. Or, just be a defender/escort. Nothing's MAKING you gather if you just find gathering inherently dull. Same with crafting. Or ranged combat. Don't like ranged combat? Never, ever use a ranged weapon. The answer isn't to make the things some people don't like as unengaging as possible.

 

It's just silly when it comes to character options. "Take these disciplines and get a bunch of active-use capabilities to be used in combat, sneaking, etc.! OR, you can slot this Gathering runestone, and you'll passively gather stone 20% faster while you stand around doing nothing! 8D!" Yeah... can't wait to be a gatherer! WOOH!

Edited by Lephys

This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my take on what has been said about POI is that they will be cranking out the basics of what is required to build structures and defense, therefore making it important to hold them to build.  It was stated in the interviews that player harvesting actions will create one type of resource that could be turned into another type by combining it.  This combined resource is what is used to build where the character harvested resource is used to craft.  So the quarry would be producing stone, the mines would be producing iron (or something equally simple for construction.)  This leaves the meaningful materials for crafting would have to be found by players.  So get out your pickaxe, we may all have to strike some rocks if we want to be geared come winter.

 

Like so many things, I'm not sure this is how it is.  But thats my impression of what I have heard.

From later ACE statements on the videos I'm pretty sure that all the living people will be gone. But if we can slot a thrall into a forge in the EK, we can probably slot thralls into mines, forges, lumbermills and castle walls in campaigns. Hopefully this will be the answer to relieve players of some drudgery.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one really wanted to be the Gatherer, but the Hunter only liked stabbing things and the Gatherer needed a job...


"Where there is unity there is always victory." -- Publilius Syrus

"If there weren't luck involved, I would win every time." -- Phil Hellmuth
"A good soldier does not fight because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." -- G. K. Chesterton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all, no it isn't fundamentally boring/tedious. You're whipping that conclusion out of thin air. In RPG combat, you're just reducing your opponent's HP to 0. There just happens to be more to that than swinging a sword over and over. Why? They didn't just dig a combat system out of the ground at an archaeological dig site. They design it that way themselves! That's why combat doesn't suck! Sure, it's easier to imagine fun and interesting variety in combat mechanics than it is in gathering mechanics, but that doesn't mean anything you do is just going to be thwacking a big rock into smaller chunks, purely based on how long you spend standing there swinging your pickaxe and how many times you've swung it. For the matter of combat, what is siege? "Oh, you're just knocking a wall into smaller chunks." Okay, so sieging should be automatic. We just move a siege engine up to the city, then there's a progress bar, and at the end of it, the city's defenses are gone. Oh wait, that can actually be exciting and enjoyable? But you're attacking an inanimate object! How can that be?!

 

Secondly, I'm not trying to draw a direct comparison between the two things. I'm not saying everyone who loves combat will want to go gather things all the time. Or that gathering ore from a node will be AS engaging and fun as a 100-vs-100 guild battle in a field, or a city siege. Just fundamentally, 0% control over something is wayyyyyy worse than even 5% control over it. Gathering could still have a lot of passive qualities to it. But you could still allow it to be more engaging than 0%. There's the potential for skills like surveying. Maybe the mine automatically mines, but you've got to explore it and find new nodes for it to mine? Even just THAT (especially with voxel tech in play) would be better than "Okay guys! We found a mine! Gather round and be showered with ore!" I wouldn't want to find a stronghold build site, then have everyone just stand around and defend it whilst it builds itself. Or, like I said, the siege weapons. Why shouldn't ANYTHING -- in a game that's all about some PvP conflict -- have an entirely passive process? The excuse being "Oh, you have to defend/fight over that POI." Well, that's great, but, you were already fighting and defending things, even if that POI wasn't a thing in the game." I'd rather have to do something WHILE defending the place. Just something. Not eighty-billion things. Just more than stand-and-wait.

 

Finally, having the ability to manually engage in the gathering process in no way means that it would be mandatory 24/7. If you so choose, you could just let the thing auto-mine. Maybe you miss out on the potential for slightly better quality ores (at a mine), and/or you don't really get to optimize its production? Things like that. You miss out on some control, but its' not worth the extra effort to you, so, *shrug*. It's a win-win. Some other people there would like to do something active in the gathering process? Then they can do that. You can just stand there the whole hour and get your ore. Or, just be a defender/escort. Nothing's MAKING you gather if you just find gathering inherently dull. Same with crafting. Or ranged combat. Don't like ranged combat? Never, ever use a ranged weapon. The answer isn't to make the things some people don't like as unengaging as possible.

 

It's just silly when it comes to character options. "Take these disciplines and get a bunch of active-use capabilities to be used in combat, sneaking, etc.! OR, you can slot this Gathering runestone, and you'll passively gather stone 20% faster while you stand around doing nothing! 8D!" Yeah... can't wait to be a gatherer! WOOH!

 

I guess we'll just have to differ in opinion on the first point. I wouldn't know where to begin. It's comparing something extremely repetitive to something that is extremely interactive. Stone does not fight back or try to run or call for allies. It's PvE of the most literal and least interactive variety.

 

To be very clear, I have no problems whatsoever with engaging with auxiliary tasks. If upkeep of your mine requires you to build and maintain infrastructure and make logistical decisions to support it, that's cool. What I do not want to see is players spending hours of actual playtime to gather stone to build a wall. Spending "real" playtime on monotonous tasks that are not "playing" is horrible.

 

I don't mind if you want to go out and investigate a dungeon to get to a vein of extremely rare ore that you then need to mine, because A. dungeoneering is actually interactive and B. mining a single vein isn't really that much downtime. But on the whole, gatherers should have an interactive task like anyone else: explore, find materials, and get them back to safety. All of those steps welcome interaction with other players. Interacting with POIs that have fortresses constructed around them and produce the most basic but necessary materials is literally nothing but grinding. All you're doing is sitting in safety and interacting with something that doesn't interact back. it's just a time-sink.

 

Whether it's "mandatory" or "beneficial" is beside the point, because the two terms are functionally interchangeable among the MMO community. This is why we have a time-based skill system instead of one that requires constant input, because gating skills behind time spent doing repetitive motions just creates time that people have to spend doing menial labor instead of actually playing the game.

 

Having to manually gather mass quantities of something is exactly the same thing. Having these things automatically gather for you frees your time to go out and do things that are actually interesting, or at least not feel obligated to log in and do things that are not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess we'll just have to differ in opinion on the first point. I wouldn't know where to begin. It's comparing something extremely repetitive to something that is extremely interactive. Stone does not fight back or try to run or call for allies. It's PvE of the most literal and least interactive variety.

 

To be very clear, I have no problems whatsoever with engaging with auxiliary tasks. If upkeep of your mine requires you to build and maintain infrastructure and make logistical decisions to support it, that's cool. What I do not want to see is players spending hours of actual playtime to gather stone to build a wall. Spending "real" playtime on monotonous tasks that are not "playing" is horrible.

 

I don't mind if you want to go out and investigate a dungeon to get to a vein of extremely rare ore that you then need to mine, because A. dungeoneering is actually interactive and B. mining a single vein isn't really that much downtime. But on the whole, gatherers should have an interactive task like anyone else: explore, find materials, and get them back to safety. All of those steps welcome interaction with other players. Interacting with POIs that have fortresses constructed around them and produce the most basic but necessary materials is literally nothing but grinding. All you're doing is sitting in safety and interacting with something that doesn't interact back. it's just a time-sink.

 

Whether it's "mandatory" or "beneficial" is beside the point, because the two terms are functionally interchangeable among the MMO community. This is why we have a time-based skill system instead of one that requires constant input, because gating skills behind time spent doing repetitive motions just creates time that people have to spend doing menial labor instead of actually playing the game.

 

Having to manually gather mass quantities of something is exactly the same thing. Having these things automatically gather for you frees your time to go out and do things that are actually interesting, or at least not feel obligated to log in and do things that are not.

psh manual minning could be tons of fun say im minning through the ground and stumble upon a powerful thrall then get whatever guild im in to come help me capture it or i stumble upon a discipline runestone that i can sell/keep or give to my guild or my favorite i stumble upon a guilds secret supply tunnel that i could sell as information to a rival guild of theirs then watch as the rival guild has a secret way in to siege said guild

Edited by jakeman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think in previous games, mining was merely a means to and end.  The time and efforts was simply there to delay how long the good stuff started getting made.  In a game like this, however, I think adding the time and effort to achieve balanced against getting killed all the time will make crafting a true profession of hard work.


"Where there is unity there is always victory." -- Publilius Syrus

"If there weren't luck involved, I would win every time." -- Phil Hellmuth
"A good soldier does not fight because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." -- G. K. Chesterton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess we'll just have to differ in opinion on the first point. I wouldn't know where to begin. It's comparing something extremely repetitive to something that is extremely interactive. Stone does not fight back or try to run or call for allies. It's PvE of the most literal and least interactive variety.

It isn't a difference of opinion. I know for a fact that no process is inherently unengaging when it comes to video game representation. Combat can be boring if you make it unengaging. Doesn't mean "combat," itself, is just lame. Also, "repetitive" and "interactive" are not mutually exclusive things. Combat is repetitive. But, if it's also dynamic and engaging, then it will not become boring as a consequence of its repetition. Tetris pieces do not fight back or flee or call for allies, either, and yet Tetris bears some level of enjoyment and action, despite having no combat whatsoever. Or do you really believe that any game that isn't based around combat is inherently lame and terrible? I don't believe you do. But that's where that reasoning leads, as it ignores the factors that make something fun, or, at least, the factors that make something un-fun.

 

Interacting with POIs that have fortresses constructed around them and produce the most basic but necessary materials is literally nothing but grinding.

Until Team B comes along and blows the crap out of your walls, and you can't respawn there at your Mine Defense Fortress, and you have limited resources with which to repair the walls, and limited manpower with which to repel the attack, and how efficiently players carry out the repairs and the gathering actually changes based on some modicum of player skill, rather than just how long you stood around watching the game happen... Oh no, we're not going to hold for much longer than about 10 minutes here, guys. Great, luckily we had awesome gatherers who were very good at what they do, so we got the maximum amount of stuff out of this mine before successfully retreating.

 

All you're doing is sitting in safety and interacting with something that doesn't interact back. it's just a time-sink.

Exactly. Which is why I'd prefer if the thing you're interacting with interacted back. I'll look to Tetris again, to make an example. If Tetris were just a big stack of blocks on a screen, and you had to manually clear out all the lines, and got points for clearing the lines by clicking on blocks to destroy them, and doing so until all the lines were destroyed, it wouldn't even be a game. That's how gathering is in most MMOs. That's why it's boring. Tetris doesn't involve fighting, but it's at least an engaging game because the way in which you have to clear lines for points is engaging and dynamic. If you want to get technical, you're effectively "battling" the factors that make solid lines of blocks not-exist, and that make the blocks climb toward the top of the screen. The rules of the game itself are your opponent. It requires player skill and reaction to actually accomplish the goal (clearing lines).

 

That's just an example of the concept of what makes gameplay, gameplay (and not just some boring task). So, I'm not saying "Copy Tetris, exactly, and you have the best thing ever!". Some people may not enjoy Tetris. But, no one can say you don't have to do anything in Tetris, or that you just stand there and watch your character accomplish things. But, some people not liking Tetris means that they just shouldn't play Tetris. It doesn't mean Tetris shouldn't exist. Because, some people DO like Tetris. So then, which people's desires justify a game's existence?

 

Now, in this case, it would simply be a subset of a larger game. So, disliking "Tetris" would be disliking active gathering. You'd either just avoid gathering (the universe doesn't implode, you just do other stuff, and help fight/defend while other people gather, and they pay you in resources/equipment -- everyone wins), or you just gather in a less-dedicated fashion and aren't the world's greatest gatherer (which you don't care about if you don't enjoy focusing on gathering, so why does it matter?).

 

Whether it's "mandatory" or "beneficial" is beside the point, because the two terms are functionally interchangeable among the MMO community. This is why we have a time-based skill system instead of one that requires constant input, because gating skills behind time spent doing repetitive motions just creates time that people have to spend doing menial labor instead of actually playing the game.

I hate to break it to you, but this game isn't exactly catering to "the MMO community" that currently exists, as a big general blob. Crafting is beneficial because you can acquire items and equipment that way, and yet, it isn't mandatory, because you can get those things from someone else. You can even gather materials, then have someone else make them in exchange for extra materials, OR you can buy them, OR you can focus on taking your items and equipment from enemy players. Beneficial, but not mandatory.

 

Or, to look at it another way, all options are beneficial, and they can't be ALL mandatory. Imagine there are just 2 options (for simplicity's sake): The fast, easy way to gather ore from a mine, and the slow, troublesome way to gather ore from a mine (We'll call them F {fast} and S {slow}). Method F gets you more ore in less time, but not as good of quality ore. Method S gets you less ore in the same amount of time, but gets you better quality ore. If you and an enemy are both interested in a particular mine, then time is of the essence, so taking an hour to get some ore out of it doesn't do you much good if you need X ore to outfit everyone well enough to take down an enemy outpost or defend your city, etc. So, the faster method is more advantageous at this point. Getting MORE ore FASTER is more situationally useful than getting less, better ore, more slowly.

 

Also, in the event that time isn't of the essence, you can simply go find a better-quality mine/vein, and you get better-quality ore. It's not like the quality of everything in the world will be solely dependent upon the skill of the person gathering/crafting/etc.

 

Having to manually gather mass quantities of something is exactly the same thing. Having these things automatically gather for you frees your time to go out and do things that are actually interesting, or at least not feel obligated to log in and do things that are not.

I don't understand. Even if the ore from a mine automatically gathers, you still have to actually gather it. It's not going to load itself into people's inventories/wagons/etc., and transport and defend itself all the way back to your base.


This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It isn't a difference of opinion... snip

 

It is a difference of opinion. We're having a lot of points of disconnect where you and I are clearly not seeing eye to eye.

 

The most important of those is that I do not care if active mining is filling a progress bar or playing a match-3 puzzle game. The distinction makes no difference to me.

 

The blow down the walls point is exactly right. You have to be willing to go to war to stop the people who are mining fortress-enclosed POIs from mining POIs. It's not complete safety, but the level of investment you need to attack them guarantees that the people participating in active POI mining have a comparatively very low chance to get attacked. It's safe zone PvE, or the closest thing to it. If there's any benefit to it, people will gravitate towards it instead of going out and creating content. Blah!

 

Why force people to interact with a secured POI at all? Build infrastructure around it, assign it some thralls, and then come back once in a while to pick up your resources from a silo and move them to wherever it is you need them. You claim ownership, defend it, and reap the rewards it provides you. Why create a timesink on top of that? Who are you creating content for, here?

 

People who don't want to interact with other players

 

You're misunderstanding me. I do not see myself as "super hardcore pvp man" who only wants to go out and fight 24/7. What I want is the world to be active at any given point, and the way to do that is to give incentives to be out and exploring and to not give incentives to staying inside the fortress, whether you're filling bars or playing Candy Crush. That pattern of risk-avoidance is visible in plenty of games, even games that toted themselves as "super hardcore pvp man" games like Darkfall.

Edited by bearmans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a difference of opinion. We're having a lot of points of disconnect where you and I are clearly not seeing eye to eye.

Apologies. That was inaccurate. It IS a difference of opinion, but also more than that. The same way that, if I think 2+2=4, and you think 2+2=5, that is a difference of opinion. (That is purely to make a point -- I am not suggesting you are unintelligent. You are simply seeing this as only a matter of opinion, when it is not.)

 

The most important of those is that I do not care if active mining is filling a progress bar or playing a match-3 puzzle game. The distinction makes no difference to me.

See, this is the problem. How can you evaluate something, the specifics of which you don't care about in the first place?

 

The blow down the walls point is exactly right. You have to be willing to go to war to stop the people who are mining fortress-enclosed POIs from mining POIs. It's not complete safety, but the level of investment you need to attack them guarantees that the people participating in active POI mining have a comparatively very low chance to get attacked. It's safe zone PvE, or the closest thing to it. If there's any benefit to it, people will gravitate towards it instead of going out and creating content. Blah!

You're talking about a LOT of factors, here, as if they're all just one big factor-golem. Is the problem that the hypothetical POI defenses you're thinking of are TOO safe? Or is the problem that the people mining ore aren't, what... actively doing anything? Why do they have to "go out" to be actively doing something? Go where? Away from the stationary POI? Is the problem that the POIs don't move around? Maybe mines should spawn atop large, roving behemoth creatures? Like some big metal elemental? Would that be okay if the mine moved?

 

You're just saying "I can imagine some potential problems with this, so conclusion: IT'S BAD! DON'T EVEN INVESTIGATE POSSIBILITIES!" If your opinion is that there's no way to make it work, I'm not going to combat it with the mere opinion that it definitely, without-a-doubt will work. I'm going to try and find non-opinion information regarding its ability to not have the problems you're imagining it will have.

 

Why force people to interact with a secured POI at all? Build infrastructure around it, assign it some thralls, and then come back once in a while to pick up your resources from a silo and move them to wherever it is you need them. You claim ownership, defend it, and reap the rewards it provides you. Why create a timesink on top of that? Who are you creating content for, here?

I dunno. Why force people to interact with their opponents' cities? Why even have siege defenses and weaponry? Destroying walls is just a timesink, since they aren't sentient, right? You mentioned thralls. But, you have to go kill NPC foes in order to find these thralls. So, maybe those shouldn't exist? That's a time sink. So, how do you assign thralls?

 

You're misunderstanding me. I do not see myself as "super hardcore pvp man" who only wants to go out and fight 24/7. What I want is the world to be active at any given point, and the way to do that is to give incentives to be out and exploring and to not give incentives to staying inside the fortress, whether you're filling bars or playing Candy Crush. That pattern of risk-avoidance is visible in plenty of games, even games that toted themselves as "super hardcore pvp man" games like Darkfall.

If I am, then you have yet to make it clear how I am doing so. I don't understand your definition of "active." If you take out all the things that don't fall under your reasoning as being static timesinks, the only thing left is direct, player-versus-player combat. I don't think you understand how the game is being set up. It is being deliberately designed for dedicated crafters and gatherers, and even combatants to exist. In other words, if you have 200 people who are out being "active" all day long, you're going to need someone to actually make equipment for them and gather supplies with which to make that equipment, etc. If all that's done automatically, then what the hell's left besides sheer combat? You want a 500v500 or 1,000v1,000 arena deathmatch game, and that's it? What's the point in even having a crafting system if the ONLY purpose of it is to acquire the end results? Might as well just have weapon drops off of kills, and that's it. Why even HAVE resources if actively collecting them isn't the nature of their acquisition?

 

Please, explain to me the reasons why these things are bad that you're saying are bad. And why passive things can't be made non-bad by being made active. Things like that. You still have yet to provide any reasoning behind what makes something bad and what makes something good. You're just telling me "Things A and B are good, but things C and D are bad. That's why I want to only have to deal with things A and B." That's not really a reason.

 

To be perfectly clear, I am not trying to simply attack your posting quality or intelligence. I have no interest in forum competition or anything like that. I sincerely wish to understand your stance on this, as I cannot reasonably change my own opinion of it in any meaningful way otherwise. But, you simply have not provided me with the information necessary to believe anything other than that things like crafting and gathering can, potentially, be made into active "activ"ities in a proper and beneficial fashion, and that such a design is in no way inherently bad. I need to see a reason that it is inherently bad (and not circumstantially bad) to change my mind. Not only that, but I don't even comprehend the circumstances under which you are deeming things bad.

Edited by Lephys

This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Getting back to the mining intent of this thread, one question I would be interested in the answer too is - if we are digging, does the earth disappear or do you have to move and pile it?  Depending how this is done, it would affect the speed of mining as well as the ease of discovery of your dig site.

 

A question would be, as you go deeper in he earth, would you need to spend resources (support beams or some such) to continue.

 

From another post

"quarries,mills and mines  - As we are considered crows, it would seem unlikely that the locals would willingly work for us.  So are we doing the harvesting, can we get thralls to do the work for us, or perhaps both?

If we have to use thralls, then it could make raids and scouting more interesting.  Find a quarry, but don't have the manpower to defend it, take the quarry thralls and leave. Then the opposing team either has to man it themselves or raid to get villager thralls to man it

It could also affect the resource production of the POI, if the specialist thrall is working it, you can maximum possible production.  If a villager is working it you get less.

 

And if NPC's don't respawn, it makes them another resource to contend over on the battlefield

"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...