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Lightsig

Class/Race identity in 5.8

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

Shadowbane did, in fact reset. It just wasn't heralded in the way it is for Crowfall. When servers got stale they would wipe them and make new ones.

They even had varying import restrictions based on different campaigns. There were no import servers, limited import servers, and servers with no import restrictions.

So yes, in Shadowbane you accumulated wealth and identity over time just like you will in Crowfall.

Well, if it is the same impact as it is in Crowfall, I would be unaware. Generally, taking away every thing a player has worked for is typical of matchmaking games not MMOs.

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8 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

Well, if it is the same impact as it is in Crowfall, I would be unaware. Generally, taking away every thing a player has worked for is typical of matchmaking games not MMOs.

What are you talking about? I think you are confused about the persistent elements in Crowfall.


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9 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

Passive training was a benefit to the casual players more than the current system, it's just less volatile in the perspective of balance changes and campaign ruleset flexibility. It doesn't benefit casual players in the same way and it is equally dismissing the core component of account level identity that is in my opinion a staple of MMORPGs.

Opinions are like fart holes, everyone has one.

To date, I have never got the impression that the account level was where identity resided. In fact with accounts being single crow spirits CF probably has more account level identity potential than any MMO I have been part of.

Historically I would be "time to get my monk, time to get my cleric, time to get my mage", when I changed toons.  With CF, if your into the role play thing, you can treat those as all being the same identity, where in other MMO's they were technically different.

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1 minute ago, Jah said:

What are you talking about? I think you are confused about the persistent elements in Crowfall.

It's a game you can win, right? From my understanding of campaign exports you will be limited based on your ranking. Whether that is faction, Guild, or personal. You wouldn't have the sense of winning unless there were losers. Those who lose don't export or don't export much, so their collection based identity does not persist in the way that the passive training offered. This has been the core point I continue to make six ways from Sunday.

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30 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

Shadowbane didn't reset, did it? So, it stands to reason that you were accumulating some type of wealth and definition to your characters on your account.

SWG could also have a profession leveled in a day, but it didn't act as the anchor, it was your long term investments that accumulated gear and wealth that gave your characters definition. Having the opportunity to perform this in each campaign is not an equivalent to that system, because those benefits are ultimately lost and therefore so it is not an anchor in the sense that it has existed before in pretty much any MMORPG.

You are working under the assumption wipes will make you choices in talents not matter. The 'reset' you mentioned.

That is not certain. Some ruleset will be no imports and maybe -- maybe -- that also means you will have to use a new vessel. But there will be probably be just as many -- or more -- campaigns you can take your trusty vessel and play happily.

It really doesnt make difference if that is your problem with it. Heck , there were people asking for campaigns where the passive skill tree started from zero which is exactly the opposite of what you are asking for. We will be seeing all sort of rulesets and one will most certainly fit you.

Edited by BarriaKarl

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Opinions are like fart holes, everyone has one.

To date, I have never got the impression that the account level was where identity resided. In fact with accounts being single crow spirits CF probably has more account level identity potential than any MMO I have been part of.

Historically I would be "time to get my monk, time to get my cleric, time to get my mage", when I changed toons.  With CF, if your into the role play thing, you can treat those as all being the same identity, where in other MMO's they were technically different.

You had that choice because you were allowed to accumulate wealth that contributed to a roster of toons you invested in. I never have had more than two main characters in any MMO because of time limitations, therefore for me and many other people like me this idea of account identity does exist because we dont have all the time in the world to grind alts.

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1 minute ago, BarriaKarl said:

You are working under the assumption wipes will make you choices in talents not matter. The 'reset' you mentioned.

That is not certain. Some ruleset will be no imports and maybe -- maybe -- that also means you will have to use a new vessel. But there will be probably be just as many -- or more -- campaigns you can take your trusty vessel and play happily.

It really doesnt make difference if that is your problem with it. Heck , there were people asking for campaigns where the passive skill tree started from zero which is the exactly opopsite of what you are seeking. We will be seeing all sort of rulesets and one will most certainly fit you.

Raises hand.

Not so much any more with the talent system.   It's just not needed.  Make a world with imports of only white vessels at level 1 as the restriction, and that would cover.

My main desire for that was to be able to try being a "whatever" in a given world.  Switch to a different race/class/profession and see how I liked it for a world. 

That is entirely possible now either enforced by the campaign rules, or personally by choice.

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2 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

You are working under the assumption wipes will make you choices in talents not matter. The 'reset' you mentioned.

That is not certain. Some ruleset will be no imports and maybe -- maybe -- that also means you will have to use a new vessel. But there will be probably be just as many -- or more -- campaigns you can take your trusty vessel and play happily.

It really doesnt make difference if that is your problem with it. Heck , there were people asking for campaigns where the passive skill tree started from zero which is the exactly opposite of what you are asking for. We will be seeing all sort of rulesets and one will most certainly fit you.

I have never made that assumption. I have already stated that, and of course depending on the flexibiltiy of imports and exports, you will be able to factory level and traits will be part of planning but not a significant investment to be considered at all comparable to the passive training.

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Just now, Lightsig said:

It's a game you can win, right? From my understanding of campaign exports you will be limited based on your ranking. Whether that is faction, Guild, or personal. You wouldn't have the sense of winning unless there were losers. Those who lose don't export or don't export much, so their collection based identity does not persist in the way that the passive training offered. This has been the core point I continue to make six ways from Sunday.

I think you are underestimating the persistence that vessels, imports, exports, EKs, and Spirit Banks will provide. Not to mention you guilds and actual deeds.

I think you are getting hung up on the fraction of the passive training system that was removed, and it is blocking out all the ways that Crowfall is an RPG, and you will build your identity over time.


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3 minutes ago, Jah said:

I think you are underestimating the persistence that vessels, imports, exports, EKs, and Spirit Banks will provide. Not to mention you guilds and actual deeds.

I think you are getting hung up on the fraction of the passive training system that was removed, and it is blocking out all the ways that Crowfall is an RPG, and you will build your identity over time.

Passive training was mild upkeep for guaranteed persistent progression, unless imports and exports are limitless this is functionally non-existent.

But yes, it is only a fraction and MMOs are made of many.

Edited by Lightsig

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3 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

You had that choice because you were allowed to accumulate wealth that contributed to a roster of toons you invested in. I never have had more than two main characters in any MMO because of time limitations, therefore for me and many other people like me this idea of account identity does exist because we dont have all the time in the world to grind alts.

Fortunately with this system you won't need to grind them out.  I made two vessels this weekend on test, and took them both to being useful, in about 6 hours. While at the same time being able to build a bit of a crafting EK.

All without much passive skill training, and lots of it in the fall season.

CF is not even close to grind in the classic sense of the word. Surplus effort from one vessel can be transferred to new vessels through the sacrifice system.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but I can see no way that ACE has gone back on any of the intent and goal from day one KS with the talent system changes.

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10 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

unless imports and exports are limitless this is functionally non-existent.

That is nonsense. Even with limits there is still considerable persistence.


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4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Fortunately with this system you won't need to grind them out.  I made two vessels this weekend on test, and took them both to being useful, in about 6 hours. While at the same time being able to build a bit of a crafting EK.

All without much passive skill training, and lots of it in the fall season.

CF is not even close to grind in the classic sense of the word. Surplus effort from one vessel can be transferred to new vessels through the sacrifice system.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but I can see no way that ACE has gone back on any of the intent and goal from day one KS with the talent system changes.

It was there in the passive training system, so why is it hard to understand that would be the impression it gave? We are making this into everything else, when it is quite plain. Passive training gave persistent player power guaranteed regardless of any import/export rules. That system is gone, and the contribution to the character levelling was thoughtfully expanded and turned into a tutorial experience where players can express even greater variety in creating builds. Fantastic. Love it. It did not carry over the "intent" and by "intent" I literalltly mean an obvious effect produced by that system has ceased to migrate or appear in another system.

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13 minutes ago, Jah said:

That is nonsense. Even with limits there is still considerable persistence.

What is truthfully nonsense is your insistence that this persistence is universal in any way. So, in all logical interpretations my statement stands up. The analog benefit to the passive training does not exist unless you have no restrictions on importing and exporting, by which I mean, more explicitly, winners and losers enjoy the same export/import limitations, which doesn't sound like the concept of the original winning terms.

Edited by Lightsig

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6 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

It was there in the passive training system, so why is it hard to understand that would be the impression it gave? We are making this into everything else, when it is quite plain. Passive training gave persistent player power guaranteed regardless of any import/export rules. That system is gone, and the contribution to the character levelling was thoughtfully expanded and turned into a tutorial experience where players can express even greater variety in creating builds. Fantastic. Love it. It did not carry over the "intent" and by "intent" I literalltly mean an obvious effect produced by that system has ceased to migrate or appear in another system.

There is your problem.

You looked at an unfinished system and assumed intent rather than listening to them when they stated intent, and then moved unfinished and test systems which they also stated they were not happy with, closer to that stated intent was.

Obviously you don't and never will see it that way.  Sorry, but I think your just plain wrong.

I'm out of this thread now, because it's clear you're not going to change your mind.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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2 minutes ago, Lightsig said:

What is truthfully nonsense is your insistence that this persistent is universal in any way.

When did I say something was universal?


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6 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

There is your problem.

You looked at an unfinished system and assumed intent rather than listening to them when they stated intent, and then moved unfinished systems closer to that stated goal.

Obviously you don't and never will see it that way.  Sorry, but I think your just plain wrong.

I'm out of this thread now, because it's clear you're not going to change your mind.

Unless you have any statement to back this up you're making assumptions. I'm not actually going to assume their intent, I am just going to look at the way the product is developed and what desicions are made for what reasons. If you can supply such evidence that what I seek is not an intention of the game's design I will happily entertain the idea and move such a discussion to the suggestion forums but all I'm getting is your fart hole.

Edited by Lightsig

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3 minutes ago, Jah said:

When did I say something was universal?

You're saying the statement is nonsense, so I am recontextualizing it in case you want to take another stab at interpreting it, but clearly you don't.

Edited by Lightsig

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Just now, Lightsig said:

You're saying the statement is nonsense, so I am recontextualizing it in case you want to take another stab at interpreting it, but clearly you don't.

You said that "unless imports and exports are limitless [persistence] is functionally non-existent" And that is total nonsense.

You are looking at things in a very black-and-white way. And it is apparent that won't change, so I think I've probably said enough.


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1 minute ago, Jah said:

You said that "unless imports and exports are limitless [persistence] is functionally non-existent" And that is total nonsense.

You are looking at things in a very black-and-white way. And it is apparent that won't change, so I think I've probably said enough.

You've said almost nothing to the context of what it is that passive training specifically offered that I am stating is no longer available. You and @KrakkenSmacken are litterally going off on some kind od straw man about what you think I believe or want and completely avoid the OP. If you guys are done, then be done, don't need to announce it like some kind of odd flex grandstanding.

Peace.

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