IMO: the two biggest problems with Crowfall

[McTan 2,018]

Warning: Wall of Text

We are coming down to the wire on development and implementation, so for probably the last time, I feel the need to bring up the two issues that I believe are holding Crowfall back (and hold most PvP games back, including, notably Shadowbane). I hope that @thomasblair @jtoddcoleman interpret this post not as hostile, but as urgent.

Both have to do with massive power differentials regarding whether there is a fight and for how long a fight continues.

There are several reasons why I might lose a fight that I am okay with: outnumbered, out prepared, outplayed, probably some others.

What I am never okay with is giving certain players a permanent and powerful advantage regarding whether or not there even is a fight. And second, if there is a fight, giving certain players the obvious advantage in choosing whether and how to end the fight. They do not have to play better, they simply have these kinds of advantages.

There are two mechanics in Crowfall that yield these types of permanent advantages and disadvantages.

(1) Stealth 

We had a 10 minute battle today with MJayed in the Chaos keep. 
He was alone (guinea duelist, I believe), we had four (all over level 20, in voice comms: a radical cleric, an arbiter cleric, some kind of myrmidon, barbarian champion). He had better gear and is no doubt more experienced and a better player than each of the four of us. But, I would say it is highly unlikely that he is better than the four of us together (experienced gamers of all types of games, especially MMOs, and fighting as a team for years).
But the way in which he is surviving and killing us is contingent on the stealth mechanic being  laughably strong. This is not meant as an attack on him, at all. I suspect, however, that he was having a damn good time puppet-mastering us around like idiots. You'd think we never played a game before. But we literally could not even just stand and not chase (the obvious counter), inside the very center of the keep.
There is no reason a player should just be able to flit in and out of stealth, completely determining whether they would continue fighting - ever after being hit several times, and when they are surrounded by tons of R10 guards (how do guards not have stealth detection...?)
We wound up killing him only because he over-committed to kill one of us.

If he wanted to, he could have chosen to never die, despite his choosing to engage four of us, in our own keep. This is a scenario in which the single player should have died a quick and fruitless death. 

Potential remedies: Make stealth (1) temporary - maybe 10 seconds, (2) condition restricted - only if you have not taken damage or done anything aggressive in 15-20 seconds, (3) costly - full stamina bar, movement speed 10%, or something a long those lines. Albion Online did stealth very well.

(2) Speed differentials

There should not be certain races and classes which are faster, in all circumstances, than other races and classes. Mobility is a massive, massive advantage, especially with aiming and artificial range limitations.

• Yesterday, I was running less than half the speed of a Fae Assassin. I was in survival tray, with bard speed! This is completely awful gameplay feel. To watch these characters run across my screen while I am trying to haul ass made me laugh out loud in frustration, it felt that awful.
• I was engaged in a fairly large battle at a Fort. As we drove the opposition back, some of my allies got to fight, I got to run around like a goofball, never even in range to hit anything, despite leaps and sprints, and allies landing CC on fleeing opponents.
• I also wanted to tag along with a group of allies running to a fort engagement. I could not do so, because they left me completely in the dust. I was unable to engage in the best parts of the game, large PvP at Points of Interest, because of the massive speed differential.

I know the claims of different classes and races thrive in different circumstances. It has nothing to do with circumstance, it is a permanent advantage in all circumstances, especially with aimed combat.

Potential remedies: Make speed differentials all (1) temporary (like leap and sprint and blink), (2) condition restricted -  not usable for 60-120 seconds after receiving or taking aggressive action, (3) costly - getting hit while in trailblazer or while using bard speed could maybe take half health or stun for 10 seconds or something.

I am sure this seems biased from a Dwarf standpoint. If Dwarves were way faster than everyone and had access to super powerful stealth, I would complain all the same. To give one player complete control over whether there is an engagement, and whether they die in an engagement is to give another player complete lack of control over PvP combat, the primary purpose of the game. It removes my ability to play the game. I play a chase, CC Barbarian Champion, and even so, I cannot ever decide whether or not I will fight certain races and classes - not based on their skill or my skill, but simply on the supremacy of particular mechanics. (Interestingly enough, I would claim these two mechanic imbalances, combined with aimed combat, have also lead CF to a massive over-reliance on CC, which, ironically, in an attempt to mitigate the advantages seems to have exacerbated them).

You can definitely try some very hard-counters: freely given and permanent perception, and cheaply given long duration, un-cleanseable snares.

tl;dr

These are my feelings about Crowfall, as it approaches feature complete. There is so much to like about the game, but these are game-breakers, in my humble opinion. They will lead to CF being Roguefall or Speedfall, or any number of funny but sad pet names denoting dominant play-styles.

I'd suggest a group of five Devs on Dwarves versus a group of three Devs on speed and stealth build assassins, duelists, and rangers, and see which side has a better time. I'd also suggest any players strongly objecting to this post do the same, on the Dwarf side, before disagreeing.

Edited December 19, 2018 by McTan

[KrakkenSmacken 4,247]

On your second point, did you have a pack pig? As a frequent Assassin player, I was often left behind without the speed disks, so I have no other way to imagine that someone as an assassin without a pack pig can out pace you so badly. Unless of course they were flying down from a mountain top or something, which is a known issue.

The better pig (135 leather, 3 chaos embers) is essentially an invisible mount right now, and if you don't have one, obviously your mates and opponents will leave you in the dust.

[Arkade 3,137]

On the 1st point, they just need to do to stealth what they did to trailblazer/trailmaster. Give players a debuff when entering survival before they can enter stealth. I really don't know why it hasn't been done yet. Stealthers have been abusing the tray swapping since it was put in. Both assassins and duelists have ultimates that will put them in stealth from combat. That should be enough.

[KrakkenSmacken 4,247]

13 minutes ago, Arkade said:

On the 1st point, they just need to do to stealth what they did to trailblazer/trailmaster. Give players a debuff when entering survival before they can enter stealth. I really don't know why it hasn't been done yet. Stealthers have been abusing the tray swapping since it was put in. Both assassins and duelists have ultimates that will put them in stealth from combat. That should be enough.

How long would you suggest?

Any DoT, and expose, takes stealth out of play until it clears or is [Q]'d away.  The four of them may have just had zero ability to do this, so that does not mean the stealth ability is being abused, it means the player found targets without the proper counters.

I'm not saying specifically that a larger delay is not in order, or that more counters shouldn't be added, but what was described above is exactly what an Assassin is supposed to be good at and for. Tanks like the myrmidon played well to avoid crashes can also be a real problem in a 4v1 situation., even when being focused.  If an assassin gets focused and can't get away, they are pretty much dead.

Not a big fan of taking away what is special about a class because some players don't like having to figure out, or gear up for, beating a specific strategy.  Far too much of the "most health, most Mitigation, most DPS" being the only balance points.

I would much rather see for example a very low DPS DoT added to a discipline, that lasts for a very very long time unless cleared as a counter, than to see nerf bats homogenize everything into pablum.

 

And frankly, what's wrong with a solo focused class that can control if there is or isn't a fight?  That hardly seems like a reasonable posistion, that mice can never pick a class to avoid the cats.

Edited December 19, 2018 by KrakkenSmacken

[Barab 507]

13 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

 

And frankly, what's wrong with a solo focused class that can control if there is or isn't a fight?  That hardly seems like a reasonable posistion, that mice can never pick a class to avoid the cats.

ya, sounds real fun. 

[Lightsig 79]

Mjayed is a really good player, to be fair.

However, attacking where the player goes into stealth is a simple counter if you can't take advantage of the perception mechanics with your composition. I have found myself very easily located by players with the right disciplines, or those just spamming attacks in the general direction of where I could be.

You already move more slowly in stealth, so it isn't like you could go very far, very fast. I played as an assassin with trash gear and found it was quite easy to antagonize a group of four underprepared players until they were scattered and disorganized, allowing me to exploit stragglers and pick them off. I personally feel that stealth feels clunky as is but that tray swap, risk of dizzy/kd, is clearly there for this purpose. Handicapping the use of that tray further just deprioritizes using stealth in most active combat situations and relegates stealth players almost exclusive to a harvesting role. Unless we added more power to openers to make them more impactful in larger scale fights, so that a single opener per engagement was of value enough, I couldn't see any further handicaps as warranted.

Admittedly, I haven't had any real combat experience with a stealth class since 5.4 and a lot has changed, so it is possible I am coming at this from an outdated perspective, so take my comments with a grain of salt in regard to the current state of the game. It could be a lot different these days /shrug

[Tinnis 7,685]

far too easy for people to instantly weave into stealth

1 hour ago, Arkade said:

On the 1st point, they just need to do to stealth what they did to trailblazer/trailmaster. Give players a debuff when entering survival before they can enter stealth. I really don't know why it hasn't been done yet. Stealthers have been abusing the tray swapping since it was put in. Both assassins and duelists have ultimates that will put them in stealth from combat. That should be enough.

["old" duelist stealth rooted your movement and took a few seconds animation to perform and stealth to take effect. now both duelist and assassin are instant and on the move tray swaps]

example: 

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also zero chance to see a stealther in front of your face without active shadowsight [short duration, long cooldowns and investment] is a bit much

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and swift mounts are far too fast with subsequent effects on combat engagement/disengagement and general travel/exploration.

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we can go further though:

advanced gear, levels and disciplines power differentials will plow through a horde of 'newbies'

and dont get me started on the severe 'death shroud penalties' [-75% max health, damage and healing for 3 minutes, then a slow heal up after] and spawn camping!

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starter 'level grind'! ;p

Edited December 20, 2018 by Tinnis

[Sorrows 9]

Thanks for the post. While I do agree with the general-jest of what you are saying and agree some balance tweaking is required on those two fronts as well as many others in the case of Mjayed or any Stealther for that matter choosing when or when not to fight the majority of the time is part of that class kit and I'm perfectly fine with that as long as it's balanced properly.

However, Stealthers do have a very hard counter in the Ranger especially the Warden-promotion and with all things being equal they don't stand a chance 1v1 even if they get the jump on one.There is also a Discipline that all classes have access to that provides a Flare for bringing out stealthers and prevents them from re-entering stealth. Also, the Fae race has Faerie Fire and the Elkan have Gestalt. So there are quite a few ways to bring out stealth players that require very little sacrifice to obtain if that is a major concern. Granted I do still believe it needs to be tweaked to some degree, but as I have yet to play a stealther as a main I have very little input on how it feels on the other side as I've personally have only played a Ranger.

I do wholeheartedly agree with the premise that mobility is "king" and needs to be adjusted especially "in-combat" even if you want to have some races move faster than others there needs to be a better balance, but ACE has been less focused on balance and more about getting the Campaign system up and running so I would expect some real balancing come Alpha.

Thanks again for the well-thought out post and don't let the current state of game-balance frustrate you to much as they game has yet to truly go through any real balancing, but it's on the agenda as CF moves into Alpha and they are less worried with the Campaign features and more focused on balancing and game-play.

Cheers.

 

[Arkade 3,137]

1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

And frankly, what's wrong with a solo focused class that can control if there is or isn't a fight?  That hardly seems like a reasonable posistion, that mice can never pick a class to avoid the cats.

I hear what you're saying, but I think you might have those roles reversed.

[McTan 2,018]

2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

How long would you suggest?

Any DoT, and expose, takes stealth out of play until it clears or is [Q]'d away.  The four of them may have just had zero ability to do this, so that does not mean the stealth ability is being abused, it means the player found targets without the proper counters.

I'm not saying specifically that a larger delay is not in order, or that more counters shouldn't be added, but what was described above is exactly what an Assassin is supposed to be good at and for. Tanks like the myrmidon played well to avoid crashes can also be a real problem in a 4v1 situation., even when being focused.  If an assassin gets focused and can't get away, they are pretty much dead.

Not a big fan of taking away what is special about a class because some players don't like having to figure out, or gear up for, beating a specific strategy.  Far too much of the "most health, most Mitigation, most DPS" being the only balance points.

I would much rather see for example a very low DPS DoT added to a discipline, that lasts for a very very long time unless cleared as a counter, than to see nerf bats homogenize everything into pablum.

And frankly, what's wrong with a solo focused class that can control if there is or isn't a fight?  That hardly seems like a reasonable posistion, that mice can never pick a class to avoid the cats.

Landed 3 separate rend (bleed dots) and 5 knockdowns (two leap knockdowns, two neckbreaker knockdowns, and one mighty warrior knockdown) according to my combat log. Attacked where he was when he went stealth. This wasn't 4v1, it was 4 players & 10 R10 archer guards v 1 stealther. It's not a question of skill, of which he displayed plenty, it's a matter of power differential. Not power differences either, but differential. Nothing I have is anywhere near as powerful as stealth or speed. And I mean not even close. All the powers I have demand that I am in combat, whereas stealth and speed have the complete upperhand when it comes to determining whether I get to use any of my powers. And mind you these speedsters and stealthers also have good combat powers. It's not like he is a stealth scouter, he is a stealth murder-hamster.

Of course, I also did not call for removal of what is special about a class (I never would - I have long advocated for more unique powers). I called for a drastic re-thinking of what those mechanics mean for the competitive spirit of the game. Note that your idea of a proper counter requires much more significant sacrifice than it did for a stealther to be uberstealth or a speedy to be a speed burster (it may have been mounts at times, you are right there).

If you believe the situation above is exactly what an Assassin is good for (I think he was a Duelist), then you have a very very high regard for rogue classes. With a role reversal, if the four of us attacked his keep and he was home, we would have died a horrendous death. Actually, even if he wasn't there, we would have died to the R10 archers.

I am not calling for homogeneity, nor would I. I am calling for balance, which is ostensibly what they are focused on very soon, on what I consider the most important aspects of a PvP game (engaging and disengaging fights), and highlighting the two powers that currently have dramatic imbalances with regards to those aspects.

I, for instance, would also prefer tools to counter stealth and speed, rather than removing it. But, until I get those tools more easily (noting that disciplines themselves will eventually not be free), I will continue advocating for changes to both stealth and speed.

Edited December 20, 2018 by McTan

[VaMei 123]

As a test, I tried approaching a tower using my half-elf assassin. With 35 stealth skill they opened up on me at ~30m, pulling me out of stealth and preventing me from getting back into stealth until I was out of firing range.

Does Burrow use the same detection mechanics as Stealth?

[moneda 1,297]

I think choices you've made (time away from the game awaiting the Stoneborn; not playing a stealth class yourself; etc.) distort how you see the events as you've described them. 

4 hours ago, McTan said:

If he wanted to, he could have chosen to never die, despite his choosing to engage four of us, in our own keep.

That statement rings especially strange to me considering you did in fact kill him. 

[Deernado 108]

First the speed complaint is due to the original poster not realizing there are mounts in the game with no graphics (character appears to run faster). The only way someone moves faster than bard's speed is with a mount.

The faster of the two mounts is a large speed increase.

That said, there are some races with speed benfits like trail master and trailblazer giving either a 15% or 25% bonus to speed out of combat.

There are disciplines that can also give these buffs. 

The Bard discipline gives faster ooc speed and a 10% in combat speed buff.

As to the stealth mechanic...

I dont feel it is overpowered. If you run in a small group, stick together and focus fire. 

Heal the person being focused. Hopefully you bring a ranger..good perception and flare..

 

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Deernado

[Barab 507]

43 minutes ago, Deernado said:

First the speed complaint is due to the original poster not realizing there are mounts in the game with no graphics (character appears to run faster). The only way someone moves faster than bard's speed is with a mount.

The faster of the two mounts is a large speed increase.

That said, there are some races with speed benfits like trail master and trailblazer giving either a 15% or 25% bonus to speed out of combat.

There are disciplines that can also give these buffs. 

The Bard discipline gives faster ooc speed and a 10% in combat speed buff.

As to the stealth mechanic...

I dont feel it is overpowered. If you run in a small group, stick together and focus fire. 

Heal the person being focused. Hopefully you bring a ranger..good perception and flare..

 

 

Thanks for the tips, but you missed the entire point of the OP's thread. Stealth needs to be reigned in along with the in combat speed advantage some classes / races have. If not eventually it will be just fea assassins and guin duelist running around circle jerking each other off a month after the game finally releases. 

[Deernado 108]

1 minute ago, Barab said:

Thanks for the tips, but you missed the entire point of the OP's thread. Stealth needs to be reigned in along with the in combat speed advantage some classes / races have. If not eventually it will be just fea assassins and guin duelist running around circle jerking each other off a month after the game finally releases. 

No, I got his point and found them not accurate/true...

Which in combat speed advantage are you talking about? Please elaborate with specific race/benefit that's so unfair....

 

[ilogos 24]

25 minutes ago, Barab said:

 fea assassins and guin duelist running around circle jerking each other off a month after the game finally releases. 

Where is this party at?

[SoberSoul 78]

Lmao damn the difference between the vets and noobs is massive, run scarecrow or any anti stealth runes such as mole Hunter or illusionist if it is working. Also there is a large despairity in geared and ungeared players 8-10k hp + the extra resistances and proper knowledge of guard blind spots it should be totally possible for someone like mj to out play some kids who just started playing. This is more of a crying post in my eyes than a call for balance you are whining about a mechanic you barely understand how to deal with. I understand that is frustrating but don't call for a nerf like that when there are many ways and skills built in to counter it. You are just running a sub optimal comp my dude

Also as for your suggestion of 5 dwarves fighting 3 stealth characters is so ambiguous, there are Soo many factors that would go into that fight, ie are you prepared to fight stealthers which in a group of 5 you should be or that's just had preparation. In my massive experience, the 5 should win played right. 

Besides that the tracking mechanic I'd still incoming so that will certainly help people deal with stelth mechanics on top of the aforementioned anti stealth discs in game.

As for movement, you dash and Sprint right? If they just flat out out run you that's probably a mount certain class/race combos just have more mobility than others, that's why you pick and choose. You picked stoneborn, one of the least mobile races, if you were running champs you should have 0 issues with mobility. This is just you got out played by a more experience and heavily geared player. Learn from your mistakes dont cry out for change until you fully understand what you are dealing with

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by SoberSoul

[SoberSoul 78]

A good point was brought to my attention. I should clarify what I mean by vets and noobs. By vets I mean people who've played consistently for the past couple years and are fully up to date on how to roll out to have the most impact. By now I mean anyone new or returning after multiple patchs with minor knowledge of class disc subclass interactions as well as lacking knowledge of the more basic to advanced mechanics of the game. 

Edited December 20, 2018 by SoberSoul

[McTan 2,018]

2 hours ago, SoberSoul said:

As for movement, you dash and Sprint right? If they just flat out out run you that's probably a mount certain class/race combos just have more mobility than others, that's why you pick and choose. You picked stoneborn, one of the least mobile races, if you were running champs you should have 0 issues with mobility. This is just you got out played by a more experience and heavily geared player. Learn from your mistakes dont cry out for change until you fully understand what you are dealing with

 

5 hours ago, moneda said:

I think choices you've made (time away from the game awaiting the Stoneborn; not playing a stealth class yourself; etc.) distort how you see the events as you've described them. 

That statement rings especially strange to me considering you did in fact kill him. 

So which is it? I am a noob who got outplayed so my complaint is invalid or I killed him so my complaint is invalid but I am actually good and killed a more experienced and heavily geared player? If you think a player should be able to engage 1v4, in a keep, I don't know what to tell you. It will not be healthy for the game. I bogged you down in the specifics of one situation. Frankly, I have played stealth in plenty of other games and I know what it entails. I have no doubt that MJayed could have left the fight and chosen not to die, despite having engaged us several times in the keep. It was only because he pushed his luck to kill one of us that we managed to get him. He could have just harassed us ad nauseum.

 

In my experience, the biggest distortion to viewing a game comes from those who believe their opinion to be superior beforehand. If you think I am not well-informed on the game, invisi-mounts aside, then you have a ready-made excuse to disregard me. Next time, please do.

2 hours ago, SoberSoul said:

Lmao damn the difference between the vets and noobs is massive, run scarecrow or any anti stealth runes such as mole Hunter or illusionist if it is working. Also there is a large despairity in geared and ungeared players 8-10k hp + the extra resistances and proper knowledge of guard blind spots it should be totally possible for someone like mj to out play some kids who just started playing. This is more of a crying post in my eyes than a call for balance you are whining about a mechanic you barely understand how to deal with. I understand that is frustrating but don't call for a nerf like that when there are many ways and skills built in to counter it. You are just running a sub optimal comp my dude

Also as for your suggestion of 5 dwarves fighting 3 stealth characters is so ambiguous, there are Soo many factors that would go into that fight, ie are you prepared to fight stealthers which in a group of 5 you should be or that's just had preparation. In my massive experience, the 5 should win played right. 

Besides that the tracking mechanic I'd still incoming so that will certainly help people deal with stelth mechanics on top of the aforementioned anti stealth discs in game.

As for movement, you dash and Sprint right? If they just flat out out run you that's probably a mount certain class/race combos just have more mobility than others, that's why you pick and choose. You picked stoneborn, one of the least mobile races, if you were running champs you should have 0 issues with mobility. This is just you got out played by a more experience and heavily geared player. Learn from your mistakes dont cry out for change until you fully understand what you are dealing with

 

Yikes. Actually, I do know about the disciplines, but I also know they will not be free post ridiculous test scenarios; I know about the gear disparity, which simply exacerbates the issue; I am not a kid, but even if I were, that ad hominem would do nothing to my argument; guard blind spots is not a good excuse, but will hopefully be remedied at some point; I know I run sub-optimal, if you can believe it not everyone plays the same way, and if you believe forcing players to run a bunch of scarecrow and mole hunter is an optimal way to build a game...; thanks for your Massive experience, I am in awe; no, of course I do not use dash or sprint, or leap, or knock downs, or hurlbat, or any other tools, I am after all a NOOB, I just sat still and somehow MJayed fell over!

GLHF

Edited December 20, 2018 by McTan

[BarriaKarl 1,043]

I agree with McTan.

Actually it is quite sad you guys are going so far to negate a point that is quite clear.

No, people. Having to use disc X or Y, having to bring a cleric AND a ranger, having to build your gear with Z stats so you arent played to death by assassins is not reasonable.

If i say re-stealth powers should be gained through a Major Disc the stealth people will riot. Would that be okay?