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McTan

IMO: the two biggest problems with Crowfall

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Stealth vision has to be fixed before doing any balancing to stealth.

In outnumbering situation properly working and properly used stealth vision, flare, flames or any consistent DoT will faceroll stealther.

Inability to press WW after net pull to prevent stealther from vanishing with bleeding does not mean that stealth is OP, it means that Myrm does not play correctly.

The one thing that may need fix is animation cancel of combat -> survival -> stealth tray swap with dodge.

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The OP's post can be summarized as such:

"Me and my friends all played the new Mmo - Rock, Paper Scissors.

We all rolled Paper classes and went to a fort.

There was a scissors player there that killed each of us...its no fair.

Scissors shouldnt be able to beat paper each time! Nerf the ability of Scissors to cut paper!

There should be no hard counters, all characters should be the same and there should be no advantages to an enemy because of my character choices, gear or knowledge on how to play the game...

A skilled scissors paper shouldnt beat 4 Paper players..."

This gets posted to the Rock, Paper Scissors forums...

Fellow players tell them why didnt you bring a Rock player? Or equip some of Rock abilities that would have helped you Paper players versus the Scissors?

The OP says "there is something wrong in the game when my Paper player needs to have a Rock in the group, or Rock abilities in order to beat a Scissors player"...

------------------------------------------------------------------

I tried to simplify the conversation to its core...

This is a game balanced for large group battles. Not 1v1 fights or small groups. 

It is also a game of skill.  More skilled, geared players will beat you.

Edited by Deernado

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Going to agree with the OP here. From pretty much any PVP mmo I've played in the past, the ability to dictate when, how and if the fight happens is the single most useful thing.

 

So when the devs gave out stealth and move speed bonuses I cringed as they had walked right into the two biggest quagmires of any open world PVP MMO.

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U keep mentioning the R10 guards.


I know that Mjayed has been playing around in keeps for ages, I have as well.  I can tell you that it's quite easy to ignore the guards, and LoS them.  If, on top of this, he had Scarecrow on he had windows of oppertunity where he 100% negated the damage.


I can come up with many scenarios where Mjayed due to his knowledge of the keeps, and disciplines indeed would outmatch 4 players.  I can though also come up with a manner in which that you could easily bring him into a situation where he'd be forced to leave.  It does though require changing your disciplines.

So if you were 4 people that weren't build to deal with a duelist, you're besically screwed, however it's not like you didn't know this if you know about the discipline. 


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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1 hour ago, ComradeAma said:

The one thing that may need fix is animation cancel of combat -> survival -> stealth tray swap with dodge.

The animation cancel has a cost = 1 RMB...


So while it may seem like a small price... That cost can still mean that the stealther is unable to make her escape, meaning if you're taken out of stealth in some manner.  It also means that since stealth classes often have to disengage from the fight it gives the opponents a small breather to get back into the fight.  It's not like the brawlers that can stay and keep dishing out the damage.


Huginn ok Muninn, fljúga hverjan dag, Jörmungrund yfir; óumk ek of Hugin,, at hann aftr né komi-t, þó sjámk meir of Munin

Gathering of Ranger videos

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6 hours ago, SoberSoul said:

Lmao damn the difference between the vets and noobs is massive, run scarecrow or any anti stealth runes such as mole Hunter or illusionist if it is working. Also there is a large despairity in geared and ungeared players 8-10k hp + the extra resistances and proper knowledge of guard blind spots it should be totally possible for someone like mj to out play some kids who just started playing. This is more of a crying post in my eyes than a call for balance you are whining about a mechanic you barely understand how to deal with. I understand that is frustrating but don't call for a nerf like that when there are many ways and skills built in to counter it. You are just running a sub optimal comp my dude

Also as for your suggestion of 5 dwarves fighting 3 stealth characters is so ambiguous, there are Soo many factors that would go into that fight, ie are you prepared to fight stealthers which in a group of 5 you should be or that's just had preparation. In my massive experience, the 5 should win played right. 

Besides that the tracking mechanic I'd still incoming so that will certainly help people deal with stelth mechanics on top of the aforementioned anti stealth discs in game.

As for movement, you dash and Sprint right? If they just flat out out run you that's probably a mount certain class/race combos just have more mobility than others, that's why you pick and choose. You picked stoneborn, one of the least mobile races, if you were running champs you should have 0 issues with mobility. This is just you got out played by a more experience and heavily geared player. Learn from your mistakes dont cry out for change until you fully understand what you are dealing with

 

Kids started playing ? We have been testing here since day one. 

I was proccing aura of terror on scarecrow. Stealth reveal disc talents are weak at best. I expect the current combat stealth as well as the movement speed advantage certain race/classes get will be addressed later in development.

If not I expect after release it will soon be just the same handful of guilds fighting each other since the hunger dome days. I always wondered why more pvp guilds were not joining testing over the years or why there were not more consistent streamers as in previous pvp mmo alpha/beta tests we have tested but I am starting to see why.

Learn from past games mistakes when sheep had no chance verses the wolf who could fight and disengage with impunity. Beyond a mobile  steather being able to engage guards and players in an opposition keep with litttle risk, I still remember how easy it was to gank the fat gatherer/crafter in the keep games a while back but it still hadn't changed much, gathers/crafters in this game will flee. Not even talking about the dregs where we will be but the other more softer server pvp rulesets is where you will lose your player base unless checks and balances regarding this mobile stealth are not addressed.

 


Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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2 hours ago, Deernado said:

The OP's post can be summarized as such:

"Me and my friends all played the new Mmo - Rock, Paper Scissors.

We all rolled Paper classes and went to a fort.

There was a scissors player there that killed each of us...its no fair.

Scissors shouldnt be able to beat paper each time! Nerf the ability of Scissors to cut paper!

There should be no hard counters, all characters should be the same and there should be no advantages to an enemy because of my character choices, gear or knowledge on how to play the game...

A skilled scissors paper shouldnt beat 4 Paper players..."

This gets posted to the Rock, Paper Scissors forums...

Fellow players tell them why didnt you bring a Rock player? Or equip some of Rock abilities that would have helped you Paper players versus the Scissors?

The OP says "there is something wrong in the game when my Paper player needs to have a Rock in the group, or Rock abilities in order to beat a Scissors player"...

------------------------------------------------------------------

I tried to simplify the conversation to its core...

This is a game balanced for large group battles. Not 1v1 fights or small groups. 

It is also a game of skill.  More skilled, geared players will beat you.

Wow, is this what you think is good gameplay? Rock, paper, scissors? Is that supposed to be fun?

I think battles involving 4 players in one team is large enough to matter. You guys arent going to be sieging 24/7. Are you guys going to do everything with +20 plus guys? Like girls going to the bathroom? You guys are clearly ignoring the point.

It is also a game of skill.  More skilled, geared players will beat you.

Unless you Paper they Scissors. In that case they will steamroll you (and your friends) no matter what you do. Yay!

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4 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

Wow, is this what you think is good gameplay? Rock, paper, scissors? Is that supposed to be fun?

Theres more than three classes, but yes there are hard counters for each class in the game.

Its one of the game's founding principles "hard choices in character builds that have impact".

It seems now the discussion has turned to anti- stealth...

Odd coming from people who claim to have played alot of previous mmos like Shadowbane, Daoc, etc where this is the norm...

 

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17 hours ago, McTan said:

Warning: Wall of Text

We are coming down to the wire on development and implementation, so for probably the last time, I feel the need to bring up the two issues that I believe are holding Crowfall back (and hold most PvP games back, including, notably Shadowbane). I hope that @thomasblair @jtoddcoleman interpret this post not as hostile, but as urgent.

Both have to do with massive power differentials regarding whether there is a fight and for how long a fight continues.

There are several reasons why I might lose a fight that I am okay with: outnumbered, out prepared, outplayed, probably some others.

What I am never okay with is giving certain players a permanent and powerful advantage regarding whether or not there even is a fight. And second, if there is a fight, giving certain players the obvious advantage in choosing whether and how to end the fight. They do not have to play better, they simply have these kinds of advantages.

There are two mechanics in Crowfall that yield these types of permanent advantages and disadvantages.

(1) Stealth 

We had a 10 minute battle today with MJayed in the Chaos keep. 
He was alone (guinea duelist, I believe), we had four (all over level 20, in voice comms: a radical cleric, an arbiter cleric, some kind of myrmidon, barbarian champion). He had better gear and is no doubt more experienced and a better player than each of the four of us. But, I would say it is highly unlikely that he is better than the four of us together (experienced gamers of all types of games, especially MMOs, and fighting as a team for years).
But the way in which he is surviving and killing us is contingent on the stealth mechanic being  laughably strong. This is not meant as an attack on him, at all. I suspect, however, that he was having a damn good time puppet-mastering us around like idiots. You'd think we never played a game before. But we literally could not even just stand and not chase (the obvious counter), inside the very center of the keep.
There is no reason a player should just be able to flit in and out of stealth, completely determining whether they would continue fighting - ever after being hit several times, and when they are surrounded by tons of R10 guards (how do guards not have stealth detection...?)
We wound up killing him only because he over-committed to kill one of us.

If he wanted to, he could have chosen to never die, despite his choosing to engage four of us, in our own keep. This is a scenario in which the single player should have died a quick and fruitless death. 

Potential remedies: Make stealth (1) temporary - maybe 10 seconds, (2) condition restricted - only if you have not taken damage or done anything aggressive in 15-20 seconds, (3) costly - full stamina bar, movement speed 10%, or something a long those lines. Albion Online did stealth very well.

(2) Speed differentials

There should not be certain races and classes which are faster, in all circumstances, than other races and classes. Mobility is a massive, massive advantage, especially with aiming and artificial range limitations.

  • Yesterday, I was running less than half the speed of a Fae Assassin. I was in survival tray, with bard speed! This is completely awful gameplay feel. To watch these characters run across my screen while I am trying to haul ass made me laugh out loud in frustration, it felt that awful.
  • I was engaged in a fairly large battle at a Fort. As we drove the opposition back, some of my allies got to fight, I got to run around like a goofball, never even in range to hit anything, despite leaps and sprints, and allies landing CC on fleeing opponents.
  • I also wanted to tag along with a group of allies running to a fort engagement. I could not do so, because they left me completely in the dust. I was unable to engage in the best parts of the game, large PvP at Points of Interest, because of the massive speed differential.

I know the claims of different classes and races thrive in different circumstances. It has nothing to do with circumstance, it is a permanent advantage in all circumstances, especially with aimed combat.

Potential remedies: Make speed differentials all (1) temporary (like leap and sprint and blink), (2) condition restricted -  not usable for 60-120 seconds after receiving or taking aggressive action, (3) costly - getting hit while in trailblazer or while using bard speed could maybe take half health or stun for 10 seconds or something.

I am sure this seems biased from a Dwarf standpoint. If Dwarves were way faster than everyone and had access to super powerful stealth, I would complain all the same. To give one player complete control over whether there is an engagement, and whether they die in an engagement is to give another player complete lack of control over PvP combat, the primary purpose of the game. It removes my ability to play the game. I play a chase, CC Barbarian Champion, and even so, I cannot ever decide whether or not I will fight certain races and classes - not based on their skill or my skill, but simply on the supremacy of particular mechanics. (Interestingly enough, I would claim these two mechanic imbalances, combined with aimed combat, have also lead CF to a massive over-reliance on CC, which, ironically, in an attempt to mitigate the advantages seems to have exacerbated them).

You can definitely try some very hard-counters: freely given and permanent perception, and cheaply given long duration, un-cleanseable snares.

tl;dr

These are my feelings about Crowfall, as it approaches feature complete. There is so much to like about the game, but these are game-breakers, in my humble opinion. They will lead to CF being Roguefall or Speedfall, or any number of funny but sad pet names denoting dominant play-styles.

I'd suggest a group of five Devs on Dwarves versus a group of three Devs on speed and stealth build assassins, duelists, and rangers, and see which side has a better time. I'd also suggest any players strongly objecting to this post do the same, on the Dwarf side, before disagreeing.

So you didn't run a ranger for anti stealth and are complaining that a stealth character harassed you?  You played shadowbane, you know what a scout is and the value it brings to the map.  Are you complaining about you choosing not to have a counter for something you know exists?  Any of of you could have added molehunter and used the flare and nobody chose to. 

Edited by mandalore

This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

wiDfyPp.png

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1 hour ago, BarriaKarl said:

Wow, is this what you think is good gameplay? Rock, paper, scissors? Is that supposed to be fun?

If Rock = Scissors = Paper = Rock in all situations, then class choice is irrelevant. If Rock >> Scissors >> Paper >> Rock in all situations, then player skill is irrelevant.

If Rock > Scissors > Paper > Rock in the right situations but not in all situations, then choosing your class, seeking the right situations, and covering your weakness is half the game.

Finding the balance point between >> and = is the hard part, especially for an intangible like stealth. More so when you have both melee and ranged classes with stealth mechanics.

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2 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

Wow, is this what you think is good gameplay? Rock, paper, scissors? Is that supposed to be fun?

I think battles involving 4 players in one team is large enough to matter. You guys arent going to be sieging 24/7. Are you guys going to do everything with +20 plus guys? Like girls going to the bathroom? You guys are clearly ignoring the point.

It is also a game of skill.  More skilled, geared players will beat you.

Unless you Paper they Scissors. In that case they will steamroll you (and your friends) no matter what you do. Yay!

Well being as the average guild will probably be 50+ I'd say yes running around in 20 man groups will be normal.  I do plan on to be sieging 24/7, prepping for a siege or softening my opponent for the upcoming siege.  I can't wait to camp your guild, bane your assets, burn your home to the ground, salt the earth and profit from selling your assets. 

tenor.gif?itemid=8736604


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

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4 minutes ago, VaMei said:

Finding the balance point between >> and = is the hard part, especially for an intangible like stealth. More so when you have both melee and ranged classes with stealth mechanics.

All rangers can counter stealth.  All Elkin can counter stealth.  If you choose not to play the counter to stealth then that's on you. 


This post was paid for by "Mandalore for Emulated CF Community Manager 2032™". 

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I am not inclined to take any complaints about stealth seriously when they also claim that they shouldn't have to employ stealth counters.

For the record, those counters as of this post include:

All Druids (Faerie Fire debuff, preventing stealth for 30 seconds.)

All rangers (Class perception skill, Class ground AOE, Promotion class trap that applies 30 second antistealth debuff)

All Elken. (Racial Perception Skill)

The Mole Hunter disc which can be equipped by literally any character. (Lower duration version of ranger abilities)

Edited by PopeUrban

PopeSigGIF.gif

Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Counter discs were 100% being used. Scarecrow is highly effective in forts and keeps to completely ignore guards for a small portion of time.

Mjayed was prob rolling a Duelist  and he was most likely playing a Slayer Duelist. Which is a promotion Specifically designed for hit and run. The  Duelist slayer promotion has 2 ult charges that can put it into stealth and regain dodge pip rolls. This Promotion is literally designed to be mobile.

Leveraging the Keeps Blind spots with Slayer Mobility and Hard Disc counters allows him to do exactly that.

Especially if no one is able use perception skills, farie fire, etc..

Using dots correctly can also cripple a stealth class if one of the multiple detection abilities isn't available .  However, there is some counter-play. Experienced Stealthers usually pay attention to DOT timers and can use there Ultimate right before the dots are about to burn out. This allows the temporary Ultimate invulnerability  to eat the last couple DMG tics on the dot which lets the player to remain in stealth. 

when perception is working you can easily spot stealth characters 

The dodge roll cancel no longer allows for instant stealth from melee tray.  There is now a delay even if you cancel the weapon sheathing animation it will still take a couple seconds to be able to activate stealth.  Specifically talking about going from melee then harvest then stealth tray in one go.

 

Mounts are not hard to get currently. If you do not have a swift pack pig mount you will probably be chased down or be left in the dust. Bard isn't comparable.

Edited by WildOne

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3 hours ago, mandalore said:

Well being as the average guild will probably be 50+ I'd say yes running around in 20 man groups will be normal.  I do plan on to be sieging 24/7, prepping for a siege or softening my opponent for the upcoming siege.  I can't wait to camp your guild, bane your assets, burn your home to the ground, salt the earth and profit from selling your assets. 

tenor.gif?itemid=8736604

*Snort* Okay, man. I get it, everyone on CF is hardcore. Play2Crush. Full loot. Insert 'wolves and sheep' quote. Did I get all of them?

I still think McTan point is reasonable, but if the equivalent of 'shut up, you didnt spec to counter stealth so everything that happens is your fault, noob' is a good argument I dont think there is a reason for me to bother. Have it your way, I am the kind of person who enjoys seeing things going wrong just to be able to say 'I told you so'. *Shrugs*

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