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McTan

IMO: the two biggest problems with Crowfall

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10 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

*Snort* Okay, man. I get it, everyone on CF is hardcore. Play2Crush. Full loot. Insert 'wolves and sheep' quote. Did I get all of them?

I still think McTan point is reasonable, but if the equivalent of 'shut up, you didnt spec to counter stealth so everything that happens is your fault, noob' is a good argument I dont think there is a reason for me to bother. Have it your way, I am the kind of person who enjoys seeing things going wrong just to be able to say 'I told you so'. *Shrugs*

If the option for counter play is available and you make the choice not to do it then who is at fault?  Who's fault is it when you make a poor tactical decision?  Is it the devs fault for adding a multitude of ways to counter stealth and then nobody in the op's group wanted to run any of the ways to counter it?  It's not like you can't counter stealth, you just have to spec to do it and the honest answer is the OP didn't want to.  What gets me is that Mctan played shadowbane, he knows what a scout is.  Dwarf charters sucked then, looks like they still suck now. 

Edited by mandalore

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32 minutes ago, mandalore said:

If the option for counter play is available and you make the choice not to do it then who is at fault?  Who's fault is it when you make a poor tactical decision?  Is it the devs fault for adding a multitude of ways to counter stealth and then nobody in the op's group wanted to run any of the ways to counter it?  It's not like you can't counter stealth, you just have to spec to do it and the honest answer is the OP didn't want to.  What gets me is that Mctan played shadowbane, he knows what a scout is.  Dwarf charters sucked then, looks like they still suck now. 

1. I was naked with intermediate weapons, low level, playing the new Myrm for the first time ever and Myrm in general in at least four months as I main a champion. I had aura of terror going but with limited range and limited perception it wasnt working well so you are wrong no one was using counter stealth options. Most of not all counter stealth options are challenging to get to work and perception in general is wonky.  He was extremely hard to land bleeds on and even more so with juggernaut going hard to lock down. 

2. Poor tactical decision ? Who's fault ?  Ya ok, most naked low level non geared players would have all been wiped vs an experience, fully leveled, and geared duelist of his skill level. It was a fun fight, challenging, and even so more rewarding giving him a dirt nap.  Doenst mean stealth and mobility isnt an issue and at some point needs an entire reexamine before beta if not release.  

3. No Dwarf charters didnt suck in Shadowbane. @jtoddcoleman can back me up on that. 

4. Stealth and mobility are a gripe to balance. If you think it's balanced now without issue you need to drop the ego and think of the game's future benefit and success. We are just hoping someone in Artcraft is paying attention to the issue. I am not even 100% convinced they even play/test the game with the general population and/or are aware of the issue.  

Edited by Barab

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7 minutes ago, Barab said:

1. I was naked with intermediate weapons, low level, playing the new Myrm for the first time ever and Myrm in general in at least four months as I main a champion. I had aura of terror going but with limited range and limited perception it wasnt working well so you are wrong no one was using counter stealth options. Most of not all counter stealth options are challenging to get to work and perception in general is wonky.  He was extremely hard to land bleeds on and even more so with juggernaut going hard to lock down. 

2. Poor tactical decision ? Who's fault ?  Ya ok, most naked low level non geared players would have all been wiped vs an experience, fully leveled, and geared duelist of his skill level. It was a fun fight, challenging, and even so more rewarding giving him a dirt nap.  Doenst mean stealth and mobility isnt an issue and at some point needs an entire reexamine before beta if not release.  

3. No Dwarf charters didnt suck in Shadowbane. @jtoddcoleman can back me up on that. 

4. Stealth and mobility are a gripe to balance. If you think it's balance now without issue you need to drop the ego and think of the game's future benefit and success. We are just hoping someone in Artcraft is paying attention to the issue. I am not even 100% convinced they even play/test the game with the general population and/or are aware of the issue.  

You chose to run no molehunters, no elken, no rangers, no druids; that's not the devs making counter stealth hard to acquire, that's you choosing not to run it. 

Your number 3 is wrong.  Dwarf charters had no bards, no stealth, no anti-stealth and clanwarden didn't exist so they had no viable healers.  Tell me more about 2003 shadowbane.  Clanwarden didn't exist until patch 8.0 (Sept 7, 2005).   

Here's the patch notes for ya: https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Patch_8

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Just now, mandalore said:

You chose to run no molehunters, no elken, no rangers, no druids; that's not the devs making counter stealth hard to acquire, that's you choosing not to run it. 

Your number 3 is wrong.  Dwarf charters had no bards, no stealth, no anti-stealth and clanwarden didn't exist so they had no viable healers.  Tell me more about 2003 shadowbane.  Clanwarden didn't exist until patch 8.0 (Sept 7, 2005).   

Here's the patch notes for ya: https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Patch_8

 

Two words, Bounty Hunter 

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4 minutes ago, Barab said:

 

Two words, Bounty Hunter 

Couldn't see stealth past rank 20, who didnt max stealth? and you can take molehunter now?!  You simply didn't chose to. 

Edited by mandalore

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14 minutes ago, mandalore said:

You chose to run no molehunters, no elken, no rangers, no druids; that's not the devs making counter stealth hard to acquire, that's you choosing not to run it. 

Your number 3 is wrong.  Dwarf charters had no bards, no stealth, no anti-stealth and clanwarden didn't exist so they had no viable healers.  Tell me more about 2003 shadowbane.  Clanwarden didn't exist until patch 8.0 (Sept 7, 2005).   

Here's the patch notes for ya: https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Patch_8

Heh.

"it does not mean the game is imbalanced, it means that your a bad player."

 

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7 minutes ago, mandalore said:

I'm reporting Krakken for murder in the first degree. 

Can't report me for linking to Todd.  Well you can, but I doubt you would get much traction. :D

That is about my favorite quote from him, and I relish the opportunity to pull it out.

I also love that if you roll back to 1:30 Stealth/Assassin is the very example he uses.  It can't get much clearer than that for how stealth players are thought of. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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I guess I did a pretty poor job communicating exactly what I am thinking. If you all think I have not thought about hard counters, in all of their forms & reflected on my experiences with Shadowbane and other games with similar stealth, then I'll state outright - "of course I did." My point is that mechanics like insta-restealth on low cooldowns are very bad for long term population, because they place such strong demands on what other people play.

So, a stealther gets to play his or her favorite character, but I or one of my friends have to play some boring anti-stealth class or lay a gimp discipline (what happens when we don't get them for free) because otherwise 1 person can harass 10 with essential impunity. You can call that a sacrifice, and one we willingly did (had plenty of scouts in our alliance to keep our Dwarvendom pure...), but it was a major contributor to burnout. Scout player not available to play? Now all 10 of us cannot play, because our track shows a thief and we are not stupid enough to sit there. Also had plenty of times attempting ally-targeted AoEs and the like. Yes things like this work, but at a very, very low rate. So exceedingly low that it is ironic people talking about optimal counters would even bring it up.

There were reasons why SB eventually implemented anti-stealth towers and travel stance. Because stealth and speed differentials in the original set-up were too strong. I simply want ACE to consider these problems before they drain population. A post to make sure they put a lot of attention toward guard mechanics and keep and fort anti-stealth and what happens when someone is unmounted by damage and so on, and so on.

When the CWs start en masse, and next to nobody has molehunter or illusionist or whatever other hard counters, I expect to see posts about "Roguefall v. Rangerfall" - if that happens, that will greatly devalue all the work that went into all the other classes and disciplines.

I am not asking for Dwarves to be able to build "suboptimal" (what a horrible word that must feel like to developers) and defeat anything. I am asking for no single character to be allowed to completely dictate the gameplay experience of multiple others, with impunity. Yes we killed him, but that was his doing more than ours.

As for Deernado's opinion of me and this thread, /shrug.

 

 

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1 minute ago, McTan said:

I am not asking for Dwarves to be able to build "suboptimal" (what a horrible word that must feel like to developers) and defeat anything. I am asking for no single character to be allowed to completely dictate the gameplay experience of multiple others, with impunity. Yes we killed him, but that was his doing more than ours.

Dwarf only charters sucked in SB.  Personally I'm glad JTC is sticking to the lore and they suck here too.  I'd say we would see each other on the battlefield but you don't have scouts...

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2 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Dwarf only charters sucked in SB.  Personally I'm glad JTC is sticking to the lore and they suck here too.  I'd say we would see each other on the battlefield but you don't have scouts...

Wow what a burn!

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21 minutes ago, McTan said:

I guess I did a pretty poor job communicating exactly what I am thinking. If you all think I have not thought about hard counters, in all of their forms & reflected on my experiences with Shadowbane and other games with similar stealth, then I'll state outright - "of course I did." My point is that mechanics like insta-restealth on low cooldowns are very bad for long term population, because they place such strong demands on what other people play.

So, a stealther gets to play his or her favorite character, but I or one of my friends have to play some boring anti-stealth class or lay a gimp discipline (what happens when we don't get them for free) because otherwise 1 person can harass 10 with essential impunity. You can call that a sacrifice, and one we willingly did (had plenty of scouts in our alliance to keep our Dwarvendom pure...), but it was a major contributor to burnout. Scout player not available to play? Now all 10 of us cannot play, because our track shows a thief and we are not stupid enough to sit there. Also had plenty of times attempting ally-targeted AoEs and the like. Yes things like this work, but at a very, very low rate. So exceedingly low that it is ironic people talking about optimal counters would even bring it up.

There were reasons why SB eventually implemented anti-stealth towers and travel stance. Because stealth and speed differentials in the original set-up were too strong. I simply want ACE to consider these problems before they drain population. A post to make sure they put a lot of attention toward guard mechanics and keep and fort anti-stealth and what happens when someone is unmounted by damage and so on, and so on.

When the CWs start en masse, and next to nobody has molehunter or illusionist or whatever other hard counters, I expect to see posts about "Roguefall v. Rangerfall" - if that happens, that will greatly devalue all the work that went into all the other classes and disciplines.

I am not asking for Dwarves to be able to build "suboptimal" (what a horrible word that must feel like to developers) and defeat anything. I am asking for no single character to be allowed to completely dictate the gameplay experience of multiple others, with impunity. Yes we killed him, but that was his doing more than ours.

As for Deernado's opinion of me and this thread, /shrug.

 

 

Let me rephrase that for you, to swap out stealth for "tank" related items.

Quote

My point is that mechanics like high health with heavy mitigations are very bad for long term population, because they place such strong demands on what other people play.

So, a health tanker gets to play his or her favorite character, but I or one of my friends have to play some boring DPS class or lay a gimp penetration discipline (what happens when we don't get them for free) because otherwise 1 person can tank the damage of 10 with essential impunity.

I've seen and been a Myrm, well played, that can stand in group of size you described, and manage their crash mitigation well enough to bring that entire group to its knees.

It does not seem to be the fact that a geared and well skilled assassin can do what this one did to an unprepared for assassin group is the problem, it's that you just seem to not like the idea of assassins being effective enough, with a skilled player at the helm, to even force you to consider counters to that game play style.

Assassins are paper, and you all wanted to play rock. 

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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3 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Let me rephrase that for you, to swap out stealth for "tank" related items.

I've seen and been a Myrm, well played, that can stand in group of size you described, and manage their crash mitigation well enough to bring that entire group to its knees.

It does not seem to be the fact that a geared and well skilled assassin can do what this one did to an unprepared for assassin group is the problem, it's that you just seem to not like the idea of assassins being effective enough, with a skilled player at the helm, to even force you to consider counters to that game play style.

 

For the last time, my problem is not 4v1 only. It is 4v1 with complete control over when and where a battle (the point of the game) happens. No single Myrm, played at maximum skill level, is diving into a Keep with no back-up for ten minutes of harassing a group. I am saddened by the reading comprehension on this thread. As for me, I'm out.

Edited by McTan

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