Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
McTan

IMO: the two biggest problems with Crowfall

Recommended Posts

20 minutes ago, Hunt said:

Some people just like to complain

^


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, mandalore said:

If you hate them so much why are you here?  

They do newsletters, twitch streams, q/a’s; they def don’t care.  The drama here is for real.  It’s still prealpha, tons of more changes coming.  

I don't hate them.. and I'm here because I care about the game.

I also didn't make an incorrect statement like you just did.

When simple and quick fixes exist on issues with high-visibility, yet they remain untouched... It shouts "we don't care".

And when we hear that it just isn't "high on the priority list"... know that, that statement comes with a little layer of bull sock.

You did however, touch an underlying issue that scares me. With this new path that they have chosen for the game, if tons of more changes are indeed coming, then they are most likely going to continue to destroy the original vision that most of the kickstarter backer's bought into.

And if ^ that happens, you may just get your little secret wish and I'll walk away... but I'm fairly certain I won't be alone...


Eat or be eaten

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

giphy.gif

 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/19/2018 at 5:21 PM, McTan said:

(2) Speed differentials

This is probably one of the strangest things about Crowfall. Combat clearly needs a major overhaul, or stats need an overhaul,etc. Something is very off. Entering and exiting combat should be determined by the game. The speed at which you move should be predictable. Why isn't it?

Running away or picking a fight is way way too easy for a select few.  Exiting and entering combat needs some kinda of rules of engagement.

Mobility is all over the place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Impossum said:

This is probably one of the strangest things about Crowfall. Combat clearly needs a major overhaul, or stats need an overhaul,etc. Something is very off. Entering and exiting combat should be determined by the game. The speed at which you move should be predictable. Why isn't it?

Running away or picking a fight is way way too easy for a select few.  Exiting and entering combat needs some kinda of rules of engagement.

Mobility is all over the place.

Who doesn’t have mobility?  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/19/2018 at 6:53 PM, KrakkenSmacken said:

How long would you suggest?

Any DoT, and expose, takes stealth out of play until it clears or is [Q]'d away.  The four of them may have just had zero ability to do this, so that does not mean the stealth ability is being abused, it means the player found targets without the proper counters.

I'm not saying specifically that a larger delay is not in order, or that more counters shouldn't be added, but what was described above is exactly what an Assassin is supposed to be good at and for. Tanks like the myrmidon played well to avoid crashes can also be a real problem in a 4v1 situation., even when being focused.  If an assassin gets focused and can't get away, they are pretty much dead.

Not a big fan of taking away what is special about a class because some players don't like having to figure out, or gear up for, beating a specific strategy.  Far too much of the "most health, most Mitigation, most DPS" being the only balance points.

I would much rather see for example a very low DPS DoT added to a discipline, that lasts for a very very long time unless cleared as a counter, than to see nerf bats homogenize everything into pablum.

 

And frankly, what's wrong with a solo focused class that can control if there is or isn't a fight?  That hardly seems like a reasonable posistion, that mice can never pick a class to avoid the cats.

 

Pretty much this. I rolled a Ranger, maxed all the scouting skills, flare and trap and even took Mole Hunter so I could boost perception passively more AND have the active too boost it for me and my group. Today I was solo ripping an assassin out of stealth in my keep from rather far away and destroying his HP causing him to have to leap from the wall and run away. Rather than be disgruntled that some other class I wanted to play couldn't deal with something, I specifically built to make this counter for myself and my guildies. Also have troubadour to boot so have debuffing songs. The way I'm built I have pretty decent solo skills, but what I can do for my team is invaluable. This will become even better when they release the tracking disc so people can at the very least know who is nearby.

In Shadowbane only Hide was instant cast, and if the opponent seen where you did it, they could easily remove. Sneak had a cast time, to help people combat the restealth. 

Edited by Navystylz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

 

Pretty much this. I rolled a Ranger, maxed all the scouting skills, flare and trap and even took Mole Hunter so I could boost perception passively more AND have the active too boost it for me and my group. Today I was solo ripping an assassin out of stealth in my keep from rather far away and destroying his HP causing him to have to leap from the wall and run away. Rather than be disgruntled that some other class I wanted to play couldn't deal with something, I specifically built to make this counter for myself and my guildies. Also have troubadour to boot so have debuffing songs. The way I'm built I have pretty decent solo skills, but what I can do for my team is invaluable. This will become even better when they release the tracking disc so people can at the very least know who is nearby.

That sounds like it would take effort and force people to counter play other people. That type of willingness to compete and logic needs to be punished.  Burn/Ban this heretic for their witchcraft and demonic influence before it spreads to others!  

 

Also, I agree with everything you said and commend you for playing the game as intended. 

 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, mandalore said:

That sounds like it would take effort and force people to counter play other people. That type of willingness to compete and logic needs to be punished.  Burn/Ban this heretic for their witchcraft and demonic influence before it spreads to others!  

 

Also, I agree with everything you said and commend you for playing the game as intended. 

 

Lol, thanks.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty much everything I have thought of saying has been typed out and posted, then replied to...

I just want to point out another thing too.. and that's this;

You're a level 21. I am going to assume your 3 friends were all levels under 30, maybe even lower than you. You don't even have all of your promotion specific talents. You don't even have poor advanced gear. Mjayed is level 30. Mjayed has a full set of advanced gear, maybe even uncommon. He might even be a green+ vessel with greater base stats.

The four of you still managed to kill him, with only one of you dying. If he could kill all four of you, do you not think he would have? All four of you are massively under-geared, low level which means you're lacking major class abilities and on top of this, you chose to chase him in the back of the keep close to the walls where the archers can't shoot.

At the end of this post? Four under-geared, low level, unskilled players, managed to kill an end-game geared, max level, well-made vessel, and skilled player.....

yet you're calling balance issues, and that this would kill the game's population. Any game I've ever played, or heard of? If a group of 4 or so players like yours killed a player like that? They'd be utterly elated, and damn well should be. I know I would be. I think this post calls for the recognition of a great aspect in this game that many others lack. That a max level character doesn't come in, instantly kills four low level players, and moves on to the next without batting an eye.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Puffs said:

Pretty much everything I have thought of saying has been typed out and posted, then replied to...

I just want to point out another thing too.. and that's this;

You're a level 21. I am going to assume your 3 friends were all levels under 30, maybe even lower than you. You don't even have all of your promotion specific talents. You don't even have poor advanced gear. Mjayed is level 30. Mjayed has a full set of advanced gear, maybe even uncommon. He might even be a green+ vessel with greater base stats.

The four of you still managed to kill him, with only one of you dying. If he could kill all four of you, do you not think he would have? All four of you are massively under-geared, low level which means you're lacking major class abilities and on top of this, you chose to chase him in the back of the keep close to the walls where the archers can't shoot.

At the end of this post? Four under-geared, low level, unskilled players, managed to kill an end-game geared, max level, well-made vessel, and skilled player.....

yet you're calling balance issues, and that this would kill the game's population. Any game I've ever played, or heard of? If a group of 4 or so players like yours killed a player like that? They'd be utterly elated, and damn well should be. I know I would be. I think this post calls for the recognition of a great aspect in this game that many others lack. That a max level character doesn't come in, instantly kills four low level players, and moves on to the next without batting an eye.

It's almost like they feel entitled to win without putting in the same effort as the attacker.  Did you tell your attacker that your a big deal?  It's the first thing I do when being ganked, they typically stop. 

It really feels like the OP just cant accept losing and feels entitled to win.  Which is some hogwash. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify, at this time I had intermediate gear and no vessel. Also wasn't using scarecrow to deal with guards, I was using a groupfight build. :}

Edited by MJayed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MJayed said:

Just to clarify, at this time I had intermediate gear and no vessel. Also wasn't using scarecrow to deal with guards, I was using a groupfight build. :}

Lol now your just flexxing on them

 

MJayed be like giphy.gif


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/19/2018 at 6:21 PM, McTan said:

Warning: Wall of Text

We are coming down to the wire on development and implementation, so for probably the last time, I feel the need to bring up the two issues that I believe are holding Crowfall back (and hold most PvP games back, including, notably Shadowbane). I hope that @thomasblair @jtoddcoleman interpret this post not as hostile, but as urgent.

Both have to do with massive power differentials regarding whether there is a fight and for how long a fight continues.

There are several reasons why I might lose a fight that I am okay with: outnumbered, out prepared, outplayed, probably some others.

What I am never okay with is giving certain players a permanent and powerful advantage regarding whether or not there even is a fight. And second, if there is a fight, giving certain players the obvious advantage in choosing whether and how to end the fight. They do not have to play better, they simply have these kinds of advantages.

There are two mechanics in Crowfall that yield these types of permanent advantages and disadvantages.

(1) Stealth 

We had a 10 minute battle today with MJayed in the Chaos keep. 
He was alone (guinea duelist, I believe), we had four (all over level 20, in voice comms: a radical cleric, an arbiter cleric, some kind of myrmidon, barbarian champion). He had better gear and is no doubt more experienced and a better player than each of the four of us. But, I would say it is highly unlikely that he is better than the four of us together (experienced gamers of all types of games, especially MMOs, and fighting as a team for years).
But the way in which he is surviving and killing us is contingent on the stealth mechanic being  laughably strong. This is not meant as an attack on him, at all. I suspect, however, that he was having a damn good time puppet-mastering us around like idiots. You'd think we never played a game before. But we literally could not even just stand and not chase (the obvious counter), inside the very center of the keep.
There is no reason a player should just be able to flit in and out of stealth, completely determining whether they would continue fighting - ever after being hit several times, and when they are surrounded by tons of R10 guards (how do guards not have stealth detection...?)
We wound up killing him only because he over-committed to kill one of us.

If he wanted to, he could have chosen to never die, despite his choosing to engage four of us, in our own keep. This is a scenario in which the single player should have died a quick and fruitless death. 

Potential remedies: Make stealth (1) temporary - maybe 10 seconds, (2) condition restricted - only if you have not taken damage or done anything aggressive in 15-20 seconds, (3) costly - full stamina bar, movement speed 10%, or something a long those lines. Albion Online did stealth very well.

(2) Speed differentials

There should not be certain races and classes which are faster, in all circumstances, than other races and classes. Mobility is a massive, massive advantage, especially with aiming and artificial range limitations.

  • Yesterday, I was running less than half the speed of a Fae Assassin. I was in survival tray, with bard speed! This is completely awful gameplay feel. To watch these characters run across my screen while I am trying to haul ass made me laugh out loud in frustration, it felt that awful.
  • I was engaged in a fairly large battle at a Fort. As we drove the opposition back, some of my allies got to fight, I got to run around like a goofball, never even in range to hit anything, despite leaps and sprints, and allies landing CC on fleeing opponents.
  • I also wanted to tag along with a group of allies running to a fort engagement. I could not do so, because they left me completely in the dust. I was unable to engage in the best parts of the game, large PvP at Points of Interest, because of the massive speed differential.

I know the claims of different classes and races thrive in different circumstances. It has nothing to do with circumstance, it is a permanent advantage in all circumstances, especially with aimed combat.

Potential remedies: Make speed differentials all (1) temporary (like leap and sprint and blink), (2) condition restricted -  not usable for 60-120 seconds after receiving or taking aggressive action, (3) costly - getting hit while in trailblazer or while using bard speed could maybe take half health or stun for 10 seconds or something.

I am sure this seems biased from a Dwarf standpoint. If Dwarves were way faster than everyone and had access to super powerful stealth, I would complain all the same. To give one player complete control over whether there is an engagement, and whether they die in an engagement is to give another player complete lack of control over PvP combat, the primary purpose of the game. It removes my ability to play the game. I play a chase, CC Barbarian Champion, and even so, I cannot ever decide whether or not I will fight certain races and classes - not based on their skill or my skill, but simply on the supremacy of particular mechanics. (Interestingly enough, I would claim these two mechanic imbalances, combined with aimed combat, have also lead CF to a massive over-reliance on CC, which, ironically, in an attempt to mitigate the advantages seems to have exacerbated them).

You can definitely try some very hard-counters: freely given and permanent perception, and cheaply given long duration, un-cleanseable snares.

tl;dr

These are my feelings about Crowfall, as it approaches feature complete. There is so much to like about the game, but these are game-breakers, in my humble opinion. They will lead to CF being Roguefall or Speedfall, or any number of funny but sad pet names denoting dominant play-styles.

I'd suggest a group of five Devs on Dwarves versus a group of three Devs on speed and stealth build assassins, duelists, and rangers, and see which side has a better time. I'd also suggest any players strongly objecting to this post do the same, on the Dwarf side, before disagreeing.

Having read your post, I am always drawn back to thinking of Dark Age of Camelot - Stealth should require you be out of combat for 3-5 seconds minimum, with the exception of one highly ranked and earned skill that might give you unbreakable stealth once every 10-20 minutes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/31/2018 at 11:04 AM, mandalore said:

It's almost like they feel entitled to win without putting in the same effort as the attacker.  Did you tell your attacker that your a big deal?  It's the first thing I do when being ganked, they typically stop. 

It really feels like the OP just cant accept losing and feels entitled to win.  Which is some hogwash. 

Yeesh, who hired you? I'd get fired if I even tweeted something like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Retaliation said:

Yeesh, who hired you? I'd get fired if I even tweeted something like that.

You think I’m an employee? 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, mandalore said:

You think I’m an employee? 

Let's be honest; you are a regular lethal weapon. You taught Soulein everything he knows, and mothered Balathan to a perfect specimen. If I saw you on the battlefield I'd put my head between my legs and kiss my ads goodbye.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Zatch said:

Let's be honest; you are a regular lethal weapon. You taught Soulein everything he knows, and mothered Balathan to a perfect specimen. If I saw you on the battlefield I'd put my head between my legs and kiss my ads goodbye.

I’ll mess an ad up. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone suggested noise cues as a compromise on the stealth issue? Encountered it for the first time today and it looks like a neat mechanic. I certainly wouldn't want to lose it. But maybe hearing footsteps so you know there's something there might be a solution? You know, you hear footsteps, so you can start triggering the relevant abilities, which means you aren't completely up the creek. But if you're not paying attention, or you're too slow, or didn't invest in perception, they still don't lose the advantage they based their class around.

I mean, it's not perfect, but it might be something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/29/2018 at 10:21 AM, mandalore said:

If you hate them so much why are you here?  

They do newsletters, twitch streams, q/a’s; they def don’t care.  The drama here is for real.  It’s still prealpha, tons of more changes coming.  

What development phase do companies usually fix their dev tracker?

Also not sure how anyone could hate a video game company. Just not that serious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...