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Lightsig

Duelist in 5.8

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This is a pretty cursory view on Duelist but there were some points I thought I would provide that relate to issues with the specializations I noticed from the outset.

Slayer appears to be in the most solid position for Duelist, offering the most in offensive returns. It carries over a lot of the original kit in spirit and therefore seems like the goto without question. It would be nice if Dynamite provided a bit more distance on its leap animation, and moved some of the initial damage to a temporary buff on pistol shots instead of all-in on the initial explosion effect in order to encourage a more offensive followup to its use. I get that you might still want the option to swap out pistol for rapier but the strengths of pistol seem to outweigh this option in most practical considerations once it became exclusive to this spec.

Dirge is the melee focused variant, yet the old passive for saber attacks resetting flintlock shot is in Slayer. This was one of the main reasons to continue using the rapier and being so central to a melee focused build, I think it would be better fit for Dirge than Slayer. The stun on Impale is nice, but it feels out of place when you can still provide the same effect with PBS. Maybe something different like adding a resolve buff, or something else to boost staying power rather than the redundancy of another stun on a 5-point pip spender. It might be nice to see this spec as a more "in the fray" variant, and an armor upgrade to mail would really support this.

Vangaurd seems mostly undesirabe at a glance. The spec appears to fit more in the advanced scout role, so it might make sense to offer a Q alternative that removes the damage effect on Vanish and provides AoE cripple or root (or maybe like a concussive, canonical CC, stunning targets) instead, similar to how Dynamite offers a higher damage variant Q ability dropping its stealth effect on Slayer, but still keeping the stealth in this variant. This might make it a little more desirable for this intended role, and balance out the strength of the subclass in comparison to the others.

I'm sure Duelist isn't the only one in this position after the classes were cannabalized to create promotions, but hopefully we can get better definition in some of these alternative roles we're now offered to encourage more expirementation. We won't truely know what works and what doesn't if no one even wants to risk locking into and outfitting such underwhelming promotions.

 

Edited by Lightsig

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How is the HoT on Resist Pain for the Dirge?  That's the most appealing talent in that promotion class -- on paper, at least.  I suppose the stun on Impale is supposed to remove the necessity of using Pepperbox when you'd really rather just impale your enemy.  

The Vanguard does seem a bit confused. Some of the talents seem designed for a tankier variant (extra health) while others are obviously geared toward sneakiness.  Are Cheap Shots and the lifesteal any good? I started making a Vanguard but switched to a Slayer when I saw the way the latter's kit was coming together.

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Don't actually have any numbers, and without an equation available on the tooltip it is hard to know for certain. I am a little too focused on playing meta to veer off the path into sub optimal specs but I plan to spin up new characters once I have a feel for the frequency of wipes we will see. Right now, it looks like they moved 5.8 to live earlier than they wanted due to community feedback so I don't know what updates might be coming down the pipe that set us all back to zero. If we get another campaign persisting our current vessels and spirit banks I will run through on Dirge and Vangaurd and make more of an attempt to breakdown these variants beyond my initial cursory review!

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When I tested it on the test server, the HoT was healing for about 1500. That was off the shelf with no gear or any support power additions.

Duelist definitely seem neglected right now, with a little bit of love they could become fun to play.

Slayer- Seems to be a good spot. Nice run and gun game play, I see this build fighting on the outskirts on skirmishes, punishing people who stray to far from their healers. Not sure why their mitigations cap is so high however.

Dirge - Pretty good sustain/tanky build. Combining the HoT with AP heal gives you nice healing abilities. The build really deserves to get mail tho and damage seems a little low.

Vagnuard - I envision fighting against this guy would be like playing a game of pop-a-mole. I see this build popping in and out of stealth frequently, being annoying, creating distractions, whittling down enemies who don't have any anti-stealth abilities with them. I think to make this build successful soulpower cost on vanish needs to be lowered to atleast 500, maybe even 250 and and ambush damage needs to be raised up.

 

 

 

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On 12/21/2018 at 9:13 PM, Glory said:

When I tested it on the test server, the HoT was healing for about 1500. That was off the shelf with no gear or any support power additions.

Duelist definitely seem neglected right now, with a little bit of love they could become fun to play.

Slayer- Seems to be a good spot. Nice run and gun game play, I see this build fighting on the outskirts on skirmishes, punishing people who stray to far from their healers. Not sure why their mitigations cap is so high however.

Dirge - Pretty good sustain/tanky build. Combining the HoT with AP heal gives you nice healing abilities. The build really deserves to get mail tho and damage seems a little low.

Vagnuard - I envision fighting against this guy would be like playing a game of pop-a-mole. I see this build popping in and out of stealth frequently, being annoying, creating distractions, whittling down enemies who don't have any anti-stealth abilities with them. I think to make this build successful soulpower cost on vanish needs to be lowered to atleast 500, maybe even 250 and and ambush damage needs to be raised up.

 

 

 

Thanks for the info. I'm tempted to try a Dirge with Surging Spirit to see how it fares. Just started testing the Vanguard. I expect people to complain about Cheap Shots, even though its range keeps it from being overpowered.

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Just now, Glory said:

I actually just tested with surging spirit last night and it didn’t seem to make a difference. Healing bonus from gear might tho. 

Hmmm...is it a percentage heal (i.e., one that heals for a percentage of your health)?

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Doesn't appear to be percentage based, even after buffing my health with juggernaut toughness it didn't change the heal values. I think it's just based on a range of numbers. I did about 10 tests and it was healing for between 1300-1800. 

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2 hours ago, Glory said:

Doesn't appear to be percentage based, even after buffing my health with juggernaut toughness it didn't change the heal values. I think it's just based on a range of numbers. I did about 10 tests and it was healing for between 1300-1800. 

Dang. Not a fan of flat-value numbers in a game where so much else scales with gear, attack/support power, etc.  I suppose if you count the barrier component as a preemptive heal, it's okay, but it pales in comparison with self-healing available to other melee classes -- especially when the recast is @45 seconds.

Thanks again for the info.

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13 hours ago, makkon said:

does https://malekai.org/powers/pepperbox-shot

can shot for 3300+ damage by full plate/plate players? coz I get multiple times such hits

It is very difficult to achieve, but it is possible, yes.

Pepperbox shot is a strong skill that greatly scale with buffs, debuffs, and gears.

The duelist has to get boosted (multiple buffs by your group, some of them rare/short timed), have some luck on the Inconcievable, (maybe get proper timing with Careless Wishper), add Glass Canon for extra risks, maybe get one Dirge Duelist to debuff piercing, and one Slayer Duelist for +50% damage on pepperbox...

It requires a high level a skills and maintenance and proper timing to achieve such numbers consistently.
In general, my Pepperbox shots hits around 400-600, and ramp up to 2200 on a critical hit.

Duelist are very squishy, but also very scary damage dealers when properly supported by a group.

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7 hours ago, Gaulwa said:

It is very difficult to achieve, but it is possible, yes.

Pepperbox shot is a strong skill that greatly scale with buffs, debuffs, and gears.

The duelist has to get boosted (multiple buffs by your group, some of them rare/short timed), have some luck on the Inconcievable, (maybe get proper timing with Careless Wishper), add Glass Canon for extra risks, maybe get one Dirge Duelist to debuff piercing, and one Slayer Duelist for +50% damage on pepperbox...

It requires a high level a skills and maintenance and proper timing to achieve such numbers consistently.
In general, my Pepperbox shots hits around 400-600, and ramp up to 2200 on a critical hit.

Duelist are very squishy, but also very scary damage dealers when properly supported by a group.

I mean does it possible only with duelist self buffs? without any other buffs like + damage and - mitigation debuff, druid avatar and such. I am too lazy to test it coz test server maps is disabled and I have no resources to just test it on live atm.

I got only piercing vulnerability from some source I do not notice and baam double pepperbox shot both for 3300 damage from one duelist and 1200 from second. down from 8200 hp to 1060 hp in a seconds...

k0lqh5Q.jpg

so what is the question.... range attack which can delete "offtank" character with only self buff with aoe and stun effect. it is ok if it required alot of prebuffs and debuffs but if any duelist is able to crit with such numbers with this skill I think this is not ok. for glass cannon class with melee attack it can be ok if it is not so easy to reproduce but not for current.

 

imo

 

 

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1 minute ago, makkon said:

It requires a high level a skills and maintenance and proper timing to achieve such numbers consistently.
In general, my Pepperbox shots hits around 400-600, and ramp up to 2200 on a critical hit.

if it crit for 500, so for 2200 crit multiplier should be over 400%. not sure such crit damage is possible to overclock to х4

it it was from druid avatar, so it is pretty much ok. dat it the question.

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I don't know if a single Duelist can do that with only self-buffs.

One duelist spec has the Piercing vulnerability, and a different spec has the improved +50% damage.

The numbers I gave you are the ones I get on r7 spiders, with only self-buffs. I could reach 3300 with the +50% damage, but then I wouldn't be able to pierce your resistance.

My guess is that the first Duelist shot you with a Pepperbox that reduced your piercing resistance, and the second one had improved damages on his shot.

 

As for the x4 overclock... it might possible to some extend with Inconceivable that boost base damage, crit chances, crit damages and double attack chance. What I can tell you is that I regularly do 400-600 damage with pepperbox shot, but when the stars align, it sometimes do 1200 up to 2200. (and I have white gear, white weapons and basic vessel.)

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17 hours ago, Gaulwa said:

I don't know if a single Duelist can do that with only self-buffs.

One duelist spec has the Piercing vulnerability, and a different spec has the improved +50% damage.

The numbers I gave you are the ones I get on r7 spiders, with only self-buffs. I could reach 3300 with the +50% damage, but then I wouldn't be able to pierce your resistance.

My guess is that the first Duelist shot you with a Pepperbox that reduced your piercing resistance, and the second one had improved damages on his shot.

 

As for the x4 overclock... it might possible to some extend with Inconceivable that boost base damage, crit chances, crit damages and double attack chance. What I can tell you is that I regularly do 400-600 damage with pepperbox shot, but when the stars align, it sometimes do 1200 up to 2200. (and I have white gear, white weapons and basic vessel.)

Perhaps that piercing vulnerability is from Caltrops. In the screenshot, Makkon also seems to be suffering from Moderate Corruption from a Stink Bomb. 

On a side note, Pepperbox is piercing damage? I always assumed pistol powers did crushing damage. Shows what I know.

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4 hours ago, Pwca said:

Perhaps that piercing vulnerability is from Caltrops. In the screenshot, Makkon also seems to be suffering from Moderate Corruption from a Stink Bomb. 

On a side note, Pepperbox is piercing damage? I always assumed pistol powers did crushing damage. Shows what I know.

Pepperbox is "weapon damage". But you are absolutely correct, pistols do crushing damage! Shows how reliable I am.

Anyway, a white advanced equipped Duelist can achieve 2000+ damage on a critical hit with pepperbox on spiders. That's all I can confirm.

It can be somewhat of a problem because pepperbox has a very wide range of damage. You can as often do 300 than 2000.

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11 minutes ago, Gaulwa said:

Pepperbox is "weapon damage". But you are absolutely correct, pistols do crushing damage! Shows how reliable I am.

Anyway, a white advanced equipped Duelist can achieve 2000+ damage on a critical hit with pepperbox on spiders. That's all I can confirm.

It can be somewhat of a problem because pepperbox has a very wide range of damage. You can as often do 300 than 2000.

it should be split damage if aoe in. well, very long time ago it was developed like this.

 

anyway if those crit was not from druid avatar so this sht is OP and should be reduced by x1.5-2. I dont like to be 2-3-shotted in pvp game with loot. no class should be able to do such things from distance, especially broken stealthers.

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1 hour ago, makkon said:

anyway if those crit was not from druid avatar so this sht is OP and should be reduced by x1.5-2. I dont like to be 2-3-shotted in pvp game with loot. no class should be able to do such things from distance, especially broken stealthers.

4

Sure, but then improve Duelist HP, CC, Defense and minimum damage :)

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9 hours ago, Gaulwa said:

Sure, but then improve Duelist HP, CC, Defense and minimum damage :)

actually it does not matter

matter only people thinking about their feeling how they die from a couple of shots. then they leave a project and bring alot if destructive posts about it anywhere.

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