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Duelist in 5.8

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2 hours ago, makkon said:

actually it does not matter

matter only people thinking about their feeling how they die from a couple of shots. then they leave a project and bring alot if destructive posts about it anywhere.

It does matter, my duelist (and I believe all leather classes) currently dies in 2-3 shots from almost anything. The game is still far from being fully balanced.

You found the one Duelist power that is not rubbish, but is very inconsistent and can do lots of damages once in a blue moon when the stars align. I don't mind seeing the power rebalanced, but you need to increase minimum damage if you nerf the maximum damage to make that power more consistent.

Its average damage is not that high and duelist is not in a very good position at the moment. I'm not saying it's a bad class, but it does have a number of glaring flaws that can only be compensated by a high level of skill, teamplay and buffs from your group.

So pardon me if I get a bit defensive when you talk about nerfing the only decent attack power for pistol duelists.

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To get back on topic, I found that vanguard scout is not as bad as I initially thought on paper. There are a few things that need to be done before it gets playable/good :

- Replace that self healing bonus with the ranged bonus the other trees have ... even better put it in the "normal" skill tree. I can't stress how annoying it is to be limited to 15m range on a spec that do not want to go to melee. Even the dirge has the ranged bonus and it has a ton more incentive to get melee range so the fact that the vanguard scout is stuck with the worst range of any ranged class without any effective survivability (no 950 HP and an unreliable lifesteal aren't good enough as a leather spec) is beyond me.

 

- "General passive" (uniform leather, weapon finesse etc...) need to be accessible on stealth tray slots. Granted, that's more an issue with the stealth tray as a whole but as the spec that is supposed to spend the most time in it I guess VS is a bit more affected by this. Weapon finesse is 2s CD reduction that would really help the fluidity of the spec in stealth tray, I don't even care about uniform leather and other bonuses resetting it just feels wrong being stuck with "stealth only" passives.

Anyway, that's how it feels after trying VS in ganks and group fights.

 

As for pepperbox, 2k is really not usual/"normal" damage numbers. It does spike sometimes for whatever reasons and they certainly need to make the damage less random but pepperbox is far from a premium damaging ability on average.

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0607Acp.png

test server 5.8.1 with NERFED advanced weapon damage. 9354 crit with impale.

tested Slayer also - possible (not often) 4k crits with pepper shot....yes, overall is 900 but it is AOE with stun!

crit chance almost stable 25-40%

 

yes, on dummy. yes, on mobs are pretty the same things but it is hard to find mob with 9300 hp. yes, full tank player will get less HP but -25% to piercing is easy.

under druid avatar this will gives oneshots in the face. isnt it?

 

well, I do not want they nerf duelist of assassins but simply stealth + such hits is not should be

@jtoddcoleman what you can say about it?

 

I dunno, removed illusionist since I did not use it in test anyway (can show video if you dont trust me) and put in banshe's angel of death.

got even 10-13k per crit. 5-8k non crit... this can even be abit tuned to be even better. in real pvp you can even divide it by 2 but still this is not ok.

 

Edited by makkon

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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I get your point, although you have to realise much of this is purely theorycrafting.

You are saying you can do 9k, very rarely, on a target that has less than 30% health. Except in real conditions, you will be long dead before you get all your buffs and debuffs active, and you will never take the target under 30% without help. Unless it's a squishy target, then the entire point is moot because the target is dead before you had time to stack your buffs and debuffs.

This is extremely situational.

Also, you kind of need Agent Provocateur for the heal and the stun/snare. Which only leave one discipline slot, often better invested in something that allow you to escape, resist a bit longer, or a harvesting skill, or a crafting one, or something that helps your power rotation.

Edited by Gaulwa

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2 hours ago, APE said:

What should it be?

duelist? I think best way to balance his unstable crazy hits is decrease impale / pepper maximum damage or remove crit chance on those skills. this is the easiest way without huge nerfing class. ontop of this duelist should get more stable LMB damage. Dirge passive should be reworked for something else. Overall alot of classes last promo passives are strange and fit into the rule: useless or OP. like whole promo classes.

this way he get more overall dps without omg oneshots, still able to burst.

anyway 40+ crit chance and up to 170% crit damage with basic vessel with basic 400 AP and pretty much non epic advanced weapons without accessory and other gear with current numbers is a wrong thing.

 

I think all stealth classes should get more utility to be more competitive in massive fights but stealth mechanic should be nerfed so it will be just opener and scouting skill. atm this is opener, multiple fight reset, escaping, scouting and alot of more.

and yes, I know about anti stealth skills and perception/stealth stats

9 hours ago, Gaulwa said:

I get your point, although you have to realise much of this is purely theorycrafting.

You are saying you can do 9k, very rarely, on a target that has less than 30% health. Except in real conditions, you will be long dead before you get all your buffs and debuffs active, and you will never take the target under 30% without help. Unless it's a squishy target, then the entire point is moot because the target is dead before you had time to stack your buffs and debuffs.

This is extremely situational.

Also, you kind of need Agent Provocateur for the heal and the stun/snare. Which only leave one discipline slot, often better invested in something that allow you to escape, resist a bit longer, or a harvesting skill, or a crafting one, or something that helps your power rotation.

check out screenshot better. I did not hide weapon damage, stats, build or something. this is not real game - this is pre alpha, I also care about balance in this game.

I dunno why everyone complain about low HP on dummy? first screenshot is without angel of death and any other bonus damage on low hp.

I did not stayed there a couple of hours and recording biggest crits. I just did 5-10 impale hits and get screenshot. then put on angel of death and get 13-14k.

if you have a complaining about this required some preparation, well, I think titan myrmidon also broken OP dps but his preparation and conditions requared to get 20 stacks of damage buff + bleeding + self buff is much more harder and random, plus he can't escape. duelist burst damage is controllable

 

scenario is pretty easy. ambush (500-1k), got CC/dizzy -> impale for 2-5k (depend on luck, armor and such) -> some hits to get pips, start self buffing. if a target is not die after he get on foots after impale, well, you can restealth and repeat.

pistol duelist have less dps and burst, yes, but he is more flexible.

current sieges and performance is terrible but right after they fix it somehow and there will be some premaked squads, well you will get more and more something like this:

big siege fight, 2 sides in massive melee cluster stuck, 2-3 duelists prebuff and pepper shot under druid avatar from range up to 3 targets and repeat it every 5 seconds. who can survive this?

Edited by makkon

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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14 hours ago, makkon said:

[...]

 

I am not the best Duelist player, but I would be very surprised if you could reproduce this in a 1v1 duel, or a real situation.

I know this is a lot of efforts, but you mentioned being able to make videos, and I think it would be great to prove your point with one.
Alternatively, since we have a working combat log, you could participate in one of the sieges and post your logs here.
I am sure this would be interesting to see for everyone, devs included.

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30 minutes ago, Gaulwa said:

I am not the best Duelist player, but I would be very surprised if you could reproduce this in a 1v1 duel, or a real situation.

I know this is a lot of efforts, but you mentioned being able to make videos, and I think it would be great to prove your point with one.
Alternatively, since we have a working combat log, you could participate in one of the sieges and post your logs here.
I am sure this would be interesting to see for everyone, devs included.

divide numbers by 2 or 2.5 in real situations.

I also not familiar duelist player but at least I did testing before speaking since here is not so much community responsing.

on a life server already did some testing. vs intermediate player over 3300 crit without any buffs with basic vessel, pure white weapons and white L.armor, 400 AP. ambush -> impale -> a couple of LMB = dead one.

non crits are usually about 2k. with piercing debuff, some crit damage buffs it can be even better. 3 possible strong self heals (not OP as pitfighter's one). potential burst can be dramatically increased.

yes, you die from coordinated strong groups but CF is more about small scale, gathering, ganks and such instead of big group roaming around

 

and feeling of permanent security all time.

 

ps. I really do not know why duelist ppls do not posting videos from sieges. well, mb coz it is unplayable slide show

Edited by makkon

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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7 hours ago, makkon said:

on a life server already did some testing. vs intermediate player over 3300 crit without any buffs with basic vessel, pure white weapons and white L.armor, 400 AP. ambush -> impale -> a couple of LMB = dead one.

non crits are usually about 2k. with piercing debuff, some crit damage buffs it can be even better. 3 possible strong self heals (not OP as pitfighter's one). potential burst can be dramatically increased.

yes, you die from coordinated strong groups but CF is more about small scale, gathering, ganks and such instead of big group roaming around

ps. I really do not know why duelist ppls do not posting videos from sieges. well, mb coz it is unplayable slide show

There are a lot of things to say about what you just posted so let's just say I don't agree with you on some of your points.

- Impale :

I don't really doubt your numbers (I played dirge in full white advanced for a while and 2k was a result I saw often) but that's because there seem to be something wrong happening with the dirge passive to be honest.

Here is my take on it : Impale "normal" damage figures are replaced by the ones on dirge passive (this is something I need to test with another spec), it then checks if the target got under 50% and, if it is the case, it deals that damage again. That's not how it is supposed to do its damage, the only part I'm unsure of is the first part but I'm 90% sure the dirge passive is procced after the normal impale damage instead of before which seems like bad design IMO.

As far as I know, impale doing a ton of damage only concerns the dirge (and I don't have one anymore) so I'm happy with any feedback you can get. Still, while I do agree there is something wrong happening with impale numbers and it certainly need to be looked into, I don't really think it's a big problem either.

The dirge spec :

Let's start with some purely subjective numbers but I'm pretty sure I'm not that far from the reality. I'd say at least 80% of the non newbie duelist population should be slayers and less than 20% (probably around 10% tbh) use a rapier as a MH and not dual pistol. As you can see, I certainly doubt that the dirge passive interaction with impale impacts a lot of players, now why is that?

There are good and bad reasons for the dirge not to be the premium duelist class. One of the bad ones is that, as a CC class with a lack of design focus it has a bad rep (so people underestimate his gank power). One of the better ones are about QoL.

Duelist don't have access to the OP Fae passive so positioning while being stealthed is a big burden like any non fae stealthers even if you do have access to tunnel. For that reason, being able to open at range is considered a huge boon and while the dirge is perfectly able to do it, it does not have any advantage doing it than the other specs (just a knockdown on snipe). Furthermore, duelists don't have the necessary staying power to stay in melee unless ganking. So, using the rapier gives you more "gank" power but less staying power than dual pistols even if the dirge has more survivability than any other gankers in a straight up fight (well maybe not the blackguard I guess but the BG don't have killing power as far as I know). So, the biggest reason IMO for people not using the dirge spec, is that they feel way more comfortable using dual pistols than a rapier ... which I feel is perfectly reasonable but at the same time a perfect excuse to write about my next point.

- The balance focus of combat in CF :

CF is certainly about big groups roaming and sieges, you just can't see it because of the server population but that's, without a doubt in my mind, going to be the biggest aspect for combat in the game. Now we can discuss at length at what point a small scale skirmish becomes a big group combat but that's not the point. The dirge is better at ganking but poorer at group combat than the other duelist specs because of his need to go melee range. He is kinda like a fae sin without the passive but tunnel so actually worse. Sure he does have access to pepperbox shot which is great in group combat but if you can't get your pips from melee auto-attack what's the point?

For me, that's the biggest point against the dirge and why it is a fringe spec even if impale seems OP to me right now. That's also the reason why you won't see them post videos from sieges ... they are very good gankers but more frustrating than fae sins to use for that and you don't really bring much more to the table ... sure you are better at pinning down stragglers/healers but the level of commitment a melee focused duelist has to put compared to a ranged one is a big trade-off, and that's why people (with the ability to spam pepperbox in a group which is great) prefer using dual pistols than melee for group combat.

I'm honestly unsure about duelist videos in group combat the only interesting ones for me would be VS ones (slayers are about spacing control and spamming so nothing too flashy even if it should be effective and as for the dirge you would only see him gank stragglers or try to get a healer down and probably die in the process) but no one plays it and it's still too limited (basically harassing and trying to get the focus away from your teamates and limited range gameplay).

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ok for those who asking. I have not so much time to test at, but I login yday and exped player find me self.

this was my first day I even pvp this class (I test it after release abit and then never). I fight horrible and did alot of mistakes. also titan myrmidon with good gear (I sure he has green+ vessel, better weapons and armor, may be accessory) is not the convenient opponent to glass cannon characters but still whatch this out.

I have pure white gear. no vessel, no accessory, even no hunger shards with ap on weapons. pretty sure with some training and better gear he will lose.

3500 non crit:

jmx5FyL.jpg

also he used scarecrow as you can see. anyway he attacked me first while I tried to do some test on mobs, so I can escape easily

 


crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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Impale is based off Max hp 5 pip stack will put somone to 50% at 5 pips, the problem itself isnt the impale imo its the fact your pips dont decay out of combat so u can walk around with 5 pips u got from a mob and walk up and impale somone to half hp from 100% (Its 10% dmg per pip) From my understanding if there below 50% hp it will do no dmg.
 

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7 minutes ago, veeshan said:

Impale is based off Max hp 5 pip stack will put somone to 50% at 5 pips, the problem itself isnt the impale imo its the fact your pips dont decay out of combat so u can walk around with 5 pips u got from a mob and walk up and impale somone to half hp from 100% (Its 10% dmg per pip) From my understanding if there below 50% hp it will do no dmg.
 

I thought the bleed portion doesn't work under 50% -- the direct damage still does (I may very well be wrong). And then the Dirge passive kicks in, doing additional damage to targets under 50%.

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@makkon seems like both of your issues with Duelist were fixed on the test server.

Quote

Duelist:

        Impale, Pepperbox Shot: Removed a Damage Scalar that was causing damage to increase at an alarming rate.

Now that they are fixed, does anyone else think Duelist does too little damage? Especially Rapid Fire. I feel like you are losing out on DPS if you use that ability compared to alternating LMBs and Pepperbox Shots when you have 5 Pips. Rapid Fire has a longer cooldown and no stun so I feel like this shouldn't be the case. It seems like its better to never use the ability. Someone who's more knowledgeable with the game and testing things could maybe confirm/deny this.

Edited by afireinasa

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1 hour ago, afireinasa said:

@makkon seems like both of your issues with Duelist were fixed on the test server.

Now that they are fixed, does anyone else think Duelist does too little damage? Especially Rapid Fire. I feel like you are losing out on DPS if you use that ability compared to alternating LMBs and Pepperbox Shots when you have 5 Pips. Rapid Fire has a longer cooldown and no stun so I feel like this shouldn't be the case. It seems like its better to never use the ability. Someone who's more knowledgeable with the game and testing things could maybe confirm/deny this.

now its time to fix titan, pitfighter and other broken promos

anyway if I right understand, so duelist can still crit for over 4k per impale and over 2k per pepper with self buffs even with this fix. need to test again

Edited by makkon

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

Discord makkon#8550

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Dirge Duelist (rapier/pistol) is very strong, Impale does a lot of damage, but it doesn't has chase powers, the target can simply double dash and run away from you. I'm thinking about use mole hunter active skill, get'em, it roots the target. Does somebody here plays rapier Dirge too? I want some tips, thanks.

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To be honest, dirge has more chase power than other stealth gankers (assassins and rangers ... well good assassins have disengage but FPS drops make it hard to use well). Here are your options :

- Use your racial active to get a slow on your pistol skills with high uptime (assassin do not have any slows outside of discs). Your target should be slowed when he disengages.

- Use your dodge pips and flintlock/pepperbox them. You don't need the stun from pepperbox as long as they are in survival stance

- Use your dodge pips, get in stealth mode, tunnel and snipe for a range knockdown.

- Use you dodge pips (you can tunnel afterwards not sure if worth it ... probably) and immediatly get on your mount (that's the universal method used by all because ganked people will wait to get out of LoS to mount up). By mounting earlier you catch up way faster.

 

As for discs I've not tested "get them" so I don't know if it's as good as on the paper ... you tell us :D (yeah I'm not playing dirge anymore so I can't test it).

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On 1/17/2019 at 1:43 AM, makkon said:

now its time to fix titan, pitfighter and other broken promos

anyway if I right understand, so duelist can still crit for over 4k per impale and over 2k per pepper with self buffs even with this fix. need to test again

Do you just want to nerf a leather wearer into the ground? I agree, 9k (even highly situational in PvE is cause for concern), and the 6k+ crits people were getting were much too high.

My point is, what is an acceptable crit on pepperbox for you? Many classes, well most classes, have 8k+ life... a 2k pepperbox, which doesn't crit for that every time, is a fourth of an enemy's life and honestly? On many targets, a lot less. This is also without mitigations, which most people have 30-50% of once geared at varying degrees. Do you just want critical damage and chance to be entirely removed? At first you had a problem with it and it was an issue, now the damage is somewhat capped to a maximum, and still it's too high? 

Duelists do not have anything but leather, they need to be able to do high burst damage.. or else they will be entirely useless.

If pepperbox was consistently doing 4k a shot at range, I'd understand your concern but it isn't any longer as far as I am aware. It's doing 2k, as you say in intervals of gaining pips, and even then not all the time. Impale is doing 4k, and that's when you meet the passive's criteria for increased damage. Combined with Dirge's need to be at melee range in leather gear to not only build the pips for the attack, but also perform it? I find this to be quite acceptable damage. Subtract damage for people's mitigations because you're hitting dummies, etc, and I do not see an issue at all with these numbers.

If anything, I would very much like Duelist to have a mail promotion. Most likely Dirge, however then for the increased survival? Their damage would need to be nerfed to compensate for what they gain from that type of armor, but it would make the promotion much more viable, fun, and it would just make sense.

Edited by Puffs

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On 1/22/2019 at 6:08 PM, Setnakht said:

Dirge Duelist (rapier/pistol) is very strong, Impale does a lot of damage, but it doesn't has chase powers, the target can simply double dash and run away from you. I'm thinking about use mole hunter active skill, get'em, it roots the target. Does somebody here plays rapier Dirge too? I want some tips, thanks.

bawisk in game is really the only person I know that plays Dirge, but I think he may have swapped to Slayer (I remember him asking me questions about my Duelist). It's just much more viable, leather armor considered. It is however extremely susceptible to MS Control.

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On 1/12/2019 at 4:22 AM, makkon said:

0607Acp.png

test server 5.8.1 with NERFED advanced weapon damage. 9354 crit with impale.

tested Slayer also - possible (not often) 4k crits with pepper shot....yes, overall is 900 but it is AOE with stun!

crit chance almost stable 25-40%

 

yes, on dummy. yes, on mobs are pretty the same things but it is hard to find mob with 9300 hp. yes, full tank player will get less HP but -25% to piercing is easy.

under druid avatar this will gives oneshots in the face. isnt it?

 

well, I do not want they nerf duelist of assassins but simply stealth + such hits is not should be

@jtoddcoleman what you can say about it?

 

I dunno, removed illusionist since I did not use it in test anyway (can show video if you dont trust me) and put in banshe's angel of death.

got even 10-13k per crit. 5-8k non crit... this can even be abit tuned to be even better. in real pvp you can even divide it by 2 but still this is not ok.

 

I'd like to point out in this video, that not only is the Dirge's passive active for the increased damage scaling on Impale, but you also have Angel of Death consistently active, considering the dummy's health.. you also happened to proc the absolute best Inconceivable possible. This is not a realistic test for actual PvP, group or 1v1 (It wouldn't be even after the fix to the damage scalar). You're also not taking into account a lot of other variables. You were testing on a test dummy and screaming nerf without a full picture.

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