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Duelist in 5.8

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Pepperbox shot has been fixed. Devs removed a scalar that was making the skill's damage skyrocket in extreme conditions.

If you test again, you should be seeing more consistent results now. 

I am a bit sad this is a nerf for a class that is already hard to play in the current meta, but ultimately this is a good thing as removing this one-trick pony act from the duelist will better show the strength and weakness of the class for a future rebalance.

Edited by Gaulwa

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3 hours ago, Setnakht said:

Dirge is unplayable. Impale hitting 1000 with heavy green rapier 70 AP and basic attacks 100-200. Chase keeps a problem too.

Is a heavy rapier better than a normal one for Dirge?

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12 hours ago, Wardyn said:

Is a heavy rapier better than a normal one for Dirge?

I dont think so, but I crafted a heavy cause of de low dmg on Dirge

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@makkon @Gaulwa

You guys got your wish. Duelist has been nerfed to the point that the only class I have played for 3 months (since I started playing), is being shelved to find something else to play.

 

With advanced weapons, I am doing LMB damage of between 40 and 300 (usually -200) and the largest crit I got with Pepperbox Shot shot after 30 minutes on r9 zombies was 527. The ONLY saving grace that made the Duelist playable (on pistols at least) was that I could somtimes get some good crits and actually win at killing someone. That is now no longer possible. Hell, I had a damn cleric get away from me and get back to his fort before I could even get him down to half life...

 

Will not be playing duelist again until something has been changed. Other classes still able to do 4k+ crits and the pistol duelist who has no survivablity, not also has no damage.

 

#ouch

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19 minutes ago, Kryshael said:

@makkon @Gaulwa

You guys got your wish. Duelist has been nerfed to the point that the only class I have played for 3 months (since I started playing), is being shelved to find something else to play.

 

With advanced weapons, I am doing LMB damage of between 40 and 300 (usually -200) and the largest crit I got with Pepperbox Shot shot after 30 minutes on r9 zombies was 527. The ONLY saving grace that made the Duelist playable (on pistols at least) was that I could somtimes get some good crits and actually win at killing someone. That is now no longer possible. Hell, I had a damn cleric get away from me and get back to his fort before I could even get him down to half life...

 

Will not be playing duelist again until something has been changed. Other classes still able to do 4k+ crits and the pistol duelist who has no survivablity, not also has no damage.

 

#ouch

now ask about increase average dmg to duelist from other skills and LMB (i'd suggest it if you read it). if you have access to dev forum, they will listen you. I did suggest also nerf titan myrmidon (my main class), pitfighters, assassins. not because I like or do not like those classes but because they are overstrong in alot of situations.

sorry if devs did global changes instead of tweaking  pointwise some classes (decrease min-max on advanced and keep self sustain for some classes). but it wasnt my fault. I just did report about 4-6k real hits with impale and 1-3k hits with pepper (I died from 3k pepper shots on the sieges in 5.8 de facto) which is not the best way this game should come. those videos was linked in dev forum (not by me) and ace listen it.

I want to play on soft launch without fking oneshots. are you?

 

ps which classes have 4k hits in 5.8.1? can you provide videos, logs/screenshots? lets be constructive.

pss alot of classes unable to kill anymore strong self sustain clerics/druids/champions/knights. especially if they geared better. keep calm and report it. you write what you was able to kill someone. does it looks like your class is now close to balanced? coz balanced classes can't kill everyone 1v1, right?

Edited by makkon

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7 hours ago, Kryshael said:

@makkon @Gaulwa

You guys got your wish. Duelist has been nerfed to the point that the only class I have played for 3 months (since I started playing), is being shelved to find something else to play.

 

With advanced weapons, I am doing LMB damage of between 40 and 300 (usually -200) and the largest crit I got with Pepperbox Shot shot after 30 minutes on r9 zombies was 527. The ONLY saving grace that made the Duelist playable (on pistols at least) was that I could somtimes get some good crits and actually win at killing someone. That is now no longer possible. Hell, I had a damn cleric get away from me and get back to his fort before I could even get him down to half life...

 

Will not be playing duelist again until something has been changed. Other classes still able to do 4k+ crits and the pistol duelist who has no survivablity, not also has no damage.

 

#ouch

They ruined Assassins similarly with with diffuse. They can no longer get above 500s as well. I assumed it was not intentional since the whole playstyle is build pips to diffuse. Whatever they did (since Assassins and Duelists both benefited from the stat mod bug) completely tanked both specs apparently. But with other hairbrained changes they put in, I'm left wondering if this is not intentional and they are just that out of touch now.

I don't play Assassin or Duelists, but I can objectively say they broke both classes for those who do. Some people are happy because they would get ganked, but this is not healthy for the game.  

5.8.1 is reminding me too much of Activision's style of patching in World of Warcraft. Fix what's not broken so that it actually breaks. Destroying class's ability to play, while leaving others still absurdly strong. Upping resources on one type of node while tanking another (wood). Always in the past I felt they had a good sense of what players wanted and was good for game. With 5.8.1 not so sure.

Edited by Navystylz

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I think the 4k-6k pepperbox hit you are mentioning was a bug that was randomly doubling the damage.  Before the nerf I was hitting for around 2k-2.5k on a 5pip pepperbox with a fully geared character (vessel, gear).   I agree that the damage wasB high and needed some adjustment but reducing it to 500 killed the damage/tankyness ratio.  Why play a duelist when I can do similar damage on a much tankier class?

I think the duelist would fit perfectly in the meta if the damage was between 1-1.5k, obviously removing the double damage bug which is the real reason the class was toxic.

 

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On 29/01/2019 at 7:21 AM, Kryshael said:

@makkon @Gaulwa

You guys got your wish. [...]

 

How is that my wish? I've always said Duelist was in a bad position with only a single trick to do damage.

At least, it is now so weak Devs won't have a choice but rework them at some point.

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Just rolled a duelist on test to see the end game damage on them. With vessel, jewelry and weapons your 5 pip pepperbox hits target dummies for 500 dmg. 

 

Thats with legendary gear and almost capped AP (950 iirc). It should be hitting 3x+ that amount on target dummies if you want the class to be somewhat viable in gvg

 

I doubt that was the intended change for them. We just have to be patient for the dev to bring  the damage up to something useful. 

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1 hour ago, Thallis said:

Just rolled a duelist on test to see the end game damage on them. With vessel, jewelry and weapons your 5 pip pepperbox hits target dummies for 500 dmg. 

 

Thats with legendary gear and almost capped AP (950 iirc). It should be hitting 3x+ that amount on target dummies if you want the class to be somewhat viable in gvg

 

I doubt that was the intended change for them. We just have to be patient for the dev to bring  the damage up to something useful. 

This should be fixed on live currently. Diffuse, Impale and Pepperbox. I know for sure infuse and impale are working right. 

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Unless the training dummies are broken. I don't believe you are only hitting them for 500 with pepperbox in legendary everything. I get that and over in whites on live.

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Not sure what to tell you. Legendary weapons, legendary vessel and legendary jewelry. first weapon is 112-148 +109ap +25.8 crit damage. second weapon 2 is 91-117 with +105 attack power and +25.5% crit hit damage (no shards) . Test was done without armor with 901 ap
 

5 pip pepperbox: with maxed out buffs actives.

535 dmg

624 dmg

1556 dmg (crit)

536 dmg

1047 dmg (crit)

 

If you get the same damage with white then pepperbox may not be scaling with weapon damage at all.

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6 hours ago, Thallis said:

Not sure what to tell you. Legendary weapons, legendary vessel and legendary jewelry. first weapon is 112-148 +109ap +25.8 crit damage. second weapon 2 is 91-117 with +105 attack power and +25.5% crit hit damage (no shards) . Test was done without armor with 901 ap
 

If you get the same damage with white then pepperbox may not be scaling with weapon damage at all.

Was curious so did a little run myself with trash gear. Would need more from you to get a better comparison. Assuming no Disciplines? Slayer passive?

Your crit damage is twice what I saw with just Inconceivable and your regular shots seem a bit higher as well. 

Glass Cannon and Careless Whisper are common for added DPS so did a run with them.

My damage range is rather large so whatever Glass Cannon adds and the 9% dmg from Inconceivable aren't really noticed.

Crit damage Min seems low being about the same as Max regular damage, regardless of buffs. However Crit Max does go up a decent amount with Inconceivable, Glass Cannon, and Whispers buff active. Didn't do Glass/Whisper only. 

Pepperbox 5 pip tooltip was reduced from 285-430 to 90-135 at some point. At least looking at the SS Tinnis has posted from early 5.8. Assuming this was besides the bug and seems about where it really should be if not higher when factoring in all the various defense players have (barriers, armor, HP, heals).

The full damage and CC vs 3 targets is maybe holding it back? Maybe have high main target and lower 2nd/3rd, while keeping the CC on all 3 or even just 1? 50-75% of main shot? With full buffs, multiple Pepperboxes relatively quickly isn't hard to do. No way it is going to be high damage, with CC, at range going off every few seconds. Something needs to adjusted.

 

Vendor gear and crafted advanced pistols for laughs 48-65 DMG pew pew327 AP, 137 Crit Dmg, 26% crit chance, 18.5 dmg mod

  • Basic 373-604, Crit 478-781 Base
  • Basic 347-444, Crit 583-721 Inconceivable Only
  • Basic 356-685, Crit 534-841 Glass Cannon & Whisper Buff, No Inconceivable
  • Basic 379-715, Crit 522-1137 Inconceivable, Glass Cannon & Whisper Buff

Base

  • 391, 373, 402
  • 442, 422, 463
  • 458, 466, 443
  • 391, 387, 478 (crit)
  • 506, 604, 536
  • 511, 480, 488
  • 522 (crit), 496, 522 (crit)
  • 603, 781 (crit), 724 (crit)

Basic 373-604, Crit 478-781

 

Inconceivable Only

  • 347, 599 (crit), 583 (crit)
  • 416, 444, 412
  • 671 (crit), 698 (crit), 401
  • 377, 377, 385
  • 412, 412, 721 (crit)

Basic 347-444, Crit 583-721

 

Glass Cannon & Whisper Buff, No Inconceivable

  • 455, 415, 376
  • 386, 538, 567 (crit)
  • 356, 642 (crit), 534 (crit)
  • 528, 376, 752 (crit)
  • 626 (crit), 481, 533
  • 776 (crit), 685, 841 (crit)

Basic 356-685, Crit 534-841

 

Inconceivable, Glass Cannon & Whisper Buff

  • 715, 631, 565
  • 658, 640, 1082 (crit)
  • 900 (crit), 1010 (crit), 646
  • 381, 656 (crit), 522 (crit)
  • 827 (crit), 383, 445
  • 1137 (crit), 605, 958 (crit)
  • 383, 445, 473
  • 494, 693 (crit), 431
  • 379, 429, 669 (crit)

Basic 379-715, Crit 522-1137

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dual pistol duelist is probably overnerfed, yes. they need some adjust in stability of output dmg.

dirge(melee) spec are still viable and strong. impale still doing huge crits. able to do 3k. without banshee. tested on current test server without any high end gear.  1 light + 1 heavy weapon. no accessory. pistol spec duelist pepper was able to crit for 900. this was a max I get.

all tested on mobs and dummies. some skills are working strgange on dummies like poisons so I found r8+ mobs and did some opening on em.

 

for pvp you just need some armor pen and crit dmg coz:

1) on life atm bug with personal dmg modifier which gives to any shield users 50% mitigation ontop of armor. this is an gamebreaking bug and most of the ppl still does not know about this.

2) adv weapon dmg nerfed which mean to utilise your crits right you have to focus on crit dmg and armor pen else you are not duelist.

3) armor was untouched which mean now you can't craft white weapon with good roll and faceroll any gatherer with 2 impales.

 

ps. all sin's diffusions also working OK. just try out other classes and watch how they got nerfed in damage also. and learn to stats details.

defacto 5.8.1 duelist/assassins with blue+ gear with decent rolls was able to 2shot any target if attack first. if someone does not understand why it is not ok, well, my condolences.

 

 

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@Darksun_ what kind of damage are you doing on live with your duelist (on dummies)

@makkon what do you think would be acceptable damage for a purple 5pip pepperbox after a 15sec ramp up?  I think we all agree that the 6k+ (which I think you are label as "two shotting people") was absurd and most likely due to a bug.  

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52 minutes ago, Thallis said:

@Darksun_ what kind of damage are you doing on live with your duelist (on dummies)

@makkon what do you think would be acceptable damage for a purple 5pip pepperbox after a 15sec ramp up?  I think we all agree that the 6k+ (which I think you are label as "two shotting people") was absurd and most likely due to a bug.   

I think pepper max hit with decent purple weapon should be 800-900 non crit to target without any armors and without any personal dmg modifiers. pepper should add stun on all 3 targets and split dmg between all targets.

instead of making omg dmg finishers devs should increase overall pistol duelist dmg and add abit more possible escapes to em. this is my opinion.

well, 5.8.3 already have some discs to escape for range characters and some skills which was unavailable to duelist before

 

melee duelist is ok. 12-13k HP with decent gear, access to 2 self heals and impale with 3k still there.

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Thanks for your feedback. I’m gonna have to think about that damage range a little bit -especially when compared to other classes.  

 

But in order for a squishy class to feel rewarding -and not toxic- you need to balance the squishiness with damage. At 1k non crit it means ~700damage after pen/armor is factored in... that feels a bit low for how fragile they are. 

 

Being more slippery could be a nice touch to increasing their survivability.  But the risk vs reward of them needs to be comparable to the other classes.  

 

 

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