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kajidourden

Leveling

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Leveling doesn't seem to fill any real need or desire from anyone from a gameplay perspective.  As it stands, it makes no sense to run out into the campaign and start fighting until you have leveled to max.  You are missing critical skills and stats that puts you at a massive disadvantage vs players that have leveled their vessels.  What this translates to is a requirement for players to complete a task that some will see as a chore or barrier to entry in what is supposed to a PvP game.  Nobody is going to put themselves at the massive disadvantage that not having your full range of skills/stats unlocked will leave you with, so instead you will have players farming the easiest possible things (AI) in order to level instead of doing what they came to do.  Already in the test chat you have people decrying the fact that they are required to go out and harvest/craft sufficiently effective gear in order to get to what they really want to be doing....PvP.  Add to that the chore of having to level up your vessel and you have this awkward feeling in regards to gameplay where you start to wonder "Is this a PvP game or not?  Why am I having to do all of this Non-PvP stuff to play?"

Remove skills from the leveling process, regardless of whatever else you intend to do.  I understand the idea behind being able to take multiple talent paths to customize your vessel each time, but creating a chore to complete before you can play the game is not the way to go about it. Instead, I would suggest having leveling grant talents that are not tied to major things like skill unlocks and discipline slots (at least not the first Major/Minor).  Instead, everyone should start with the ability to jump into a battle and be effective...though the level of that effectiveness will be based on several other factors....but being completely hamstrung is not fun and not encouraging players to go out and PvP.  

Ultimately, leveling should be something that occurs naturally as part of participating in the throne war that this game is supposed to be simulating...not a pre-requisite to participation.  Requiring people to spend time leveling up from non-PvP activities before PvP is something PvE games do when they tack on a PvP mode...that should not be the case here.

Edit: For some additional perspective, let's put the shoe on the other foot.  Let's say you started up WoW or FFXIV and you're dropped in with one spell and told "You need to go PvP for a while to earn your skills, then you can go out and participate in PvE".  This would be totally unacceptable and people would be rightfully upset.

Edited by kajidourden
Added some text

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Not a fan of starting with no abilities (especially in pvp), but I like the idea of active progression (long as it's sane and doesn't require you to give up your job).

The game can't revolve around just siege based pvp. Get people out there doing different stuff, leveling, harvesting etc. I need people to gank.

Edited by Helix

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"War" does not mean "spawn and go PvP"

That would be an arena

War involves logistics, supply lines, and yes, training time and expenses.

Encouraging players to develop efficient strategies to become "battle ready" is an intentional part of Crowfall's design.

In fact, in the time span of a "real" campaign the game doesn't evncourage mass combat participation until fall, fully over a month after the beginning of the campaign specifically because the intent is that early seasons are used for farming with light PvP, and late seasons are used for PvP with light farming.

Also keep in mind that vessel leveling is one and done. You choose when to replace vessels, and you don't need to level a vessel anew for each campaign your participate in.


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19 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

"War" does not mean "spawn and go PvP"

That would be an arena

War involves logistics, supply lines, and yes, training time and expenses.

Encouraging players to develop efficient strategies to become "battle ready" is an intentional part of Crowfall's design.

In fact, in the time span of a "real" campaign the game doesn't evncourage mass combat participation until fall, fully over a month after the beginning of the campaign specifically because the intent is that early seasons are used for farming with light PvP, and late seasons are used for PvP with light farming.

Also keep in mind that vessel leveling is one and done. You choose when to replace vessels, and you don't need to level a vessel anew for each campaign your participate in.

Not everyone is going to be a gatherer/crafter though, so what do people who just want to PvP do during spring and summer do then?  Not log in?  If they are expected to go out and fight over resources and such for the crafters/gatherers to retrieve then they should not be plopped into a campaign with one spell.  

Again I don't have any issue with the progression itself, or the seasons...but in a game that revolves around PvP there should not be any roadblocks to actually go out and participate in PvP.  

In fact, the most strategic of guild would capture as much territory as they can during the early seasons if everyone is going to be busy farming as you say.  It won't play out that way in practice.

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8 minutes ago, kajidourden said:

Not everyone is going to be a gatherer/crafter though, so what do people who just want to PvP do during spring and summer do then?  Not log in?  If they are expected to go out and fight over resources and such for the crafters/gatherers to retrieve then they should not be plopped into a campaign with one spell.  

Again I don't have any issue with the progression itself, or the seasons...but in a game that revolves around PvP there should not be any roadblocks to actually go out and participate in PvP.  

In fact, the most strategic of guild would capture as much territory as they can during the early seasons if everyone is going to be busy farming as you say.  It won't play out that way in practice.

"Just want to PvP" isn't how the game is designed. Combat characters have a gathering type, and that's mob drops. if you're engaging in an open PvP MMO and you think any player will be doing "just harvesting" or "just pvp" or "just crafting" you're not being realistic.

Players will most certainly PvP over objectives, farming spots, and just for fun in the early seasons. The point being made is that less of them will do so, largely because less of their enemies will be present to require it and the early seasons are the only time untrained harvesters can actually harvest a decent amount of material.

"Time to level" and XP are intentional systems to require "spin up" that players are encouraged to bypass through sacrifice, as sacrifice is an important secondary item sink to prevent the grafting economy from being overrun through hoarding.

Now, should we maybe start at level 1 with more than one skill? Perhaps. However you're already 2-4 powers in in the first 10 minutes of leveling.

Should we obliterate the scaling XP requirement for higher tier vessels or the requirement to re-level when replacing them? No. Without that XP requirement there is no point to sacrifice and you end up needing to rebalance the gathering/crafting economy to be ever grindier.

On top of all that, this is literally only an issue for the first character on an account in exactly one campaign ever. From that point forward you can use max leveled characters to simply provide sacrifices to level all that follow, and go ahead and start every campaign with a max  level character.


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7 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

"Just want to PvP" isn't how the game is designed. Combat characters have a gathering type, and that's mob drops. if you're engaging in an open PvP MMO and you think any player will be doing "just harvesting" or "just pvp" or "just crafting" you're not being realistic.

Players will most certainly PvP over objectives, farming spots, and just for fun in the early seasons. The point being made is that less of them will do so, largely because less of their enemies will be present to require it and the early seasons are the only time untrained harvesters can actually harvest a decent amount of material.

"Time to level" and XP are intentional systems to require "spin up" that players are encouraged to bypass through sacrifice, as sacrifice is an important secondary item sink to prevent the grafting economy from being overrun through hoarding.

Now, should we maybe start at level 1 with more than one skill? Perhaps. However you're already 2-4 powers in in the first 10 minutes of leveling.

Should we obliterate the scaling XP requirement for higher tier vessels or the requirement to re-level when replacing them? No. Without that XP requirement there is no point to sacrifice and you end up needing to rebalance the gathering/crafting economy to be ever grindier.

On top of all that, this is literally only an issue for the first character on an account in exactly one campaign ever. From that point forward you can use max leveled characters to simply provide sacrifices to level all that follow, and go ahead and start every campaign with a max  level character.

You keep bringing up how easy it is to bypass the xp system.  If that's the case then it's totally pointless to even have it since everyone will simply sacrifice their way out of it, which is really making my argument for me.

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Just now, kajidourden said:

You keep bringing up how easy it is to bypass the xp system.  If that's the case then it's totally pointless to even have it since everyone will simply sacrifice their way out of it, which is really making my argument for me.

Sacrificing is not "bypassing" the system.

It is using it as intended.

Leveling without sacrificing things is the "fallback" method that you somehow seem to think is the primary one.

It is supposed to suck enough to make you want to sacrifice items.


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5 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Sacrificing is not "bypassing" the system.

It is using it as intended.

Leveling without sacrificing things is the "fallback" method that you somehow seem to think is the primary one.

It is supposed to suck enough to make you want to sacrifice items.

As you've said repeatedly, you will only ever have to use that method once though.  Even then, you can sacrifice things as you kill things to speed it up.  So if that's the intent it is poorly designed since it doesn't do its job

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11 minutes ago, kajidourden said:

As you've said repeatedly, you will only ever have to use that method once though.  Even then, you can sacrifice things as you kill things to speed it up.  So if that's the intent it is poorly designed since it doesn't do its job

The fact that you made a thread complaining about leveling seems to indicate that its doing its job of making you want to figure out faster ways to level than relying on mob xp, doesn't it?

You can max a white vessel in literally a day. One day. Starting with no training and nothing in any bank.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Edited by PopeUrban

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4 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

The fact that you made a thread complaining about leveling seems to indicate that its doing its job of making you want to figure out faster ways to level than relying on mob xp, doesn't it?

You can max a white vessel in literally a day. One day. Starting with no training and nothing in any bank.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Nope, this was about the leveling system being a barrier to entry for PvP because of the fact that you unlock critical skills and stats from it.  In fact I said that I wanted to keep the leveling system, but again my point is that it shouldn't be a pre-requisite to play the game.  Seems you didn't even read my post.

And again, if it is so easy and you only ever need to do it once then what is the point?  You certainly don't master your class in that time, especially considering that you can swap disciplines that will have major impacts on your build.  Tell me what the system in its current iteration accomplishes that justifies its existence.

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8 minutes ago, kajidourden said:

Nope, this was about the leveling system being a barrier to entry for PvP because of the fact that you unlock critical skills and stats from it.  In fact I said that I wanted to keep the leveling system, but again my point is that it shouldn't be a pre-requisite to play the game.  Seems you didn't even read my post.

And again, if it is so easy and you only ever need to do it once then what is the point?  You certainly don't master your class in that time, especially considering that you can swap disciplines that will have major impacts on your build.  Tell me what the system in its current iteration accomplishes that justifies its existence.

The point is that requiring vessels to level is an item sink.

The point of non-sacrifice leveling is that players do not start with items to sacrifice, and players may end up in a position without items to sacrifice.

Using the xp system is not a think you only do one time. You'll need xp for every vessel you use, and you'll be throwing away old vessels as you replace them with better ones.

As you find yourself leveling these new, more powerful vessels, you'll find they require substantially more xp. Leveling a white vessel may seem trivial to the point of "why is it in the game at all?" Leveling a legendary vessel is an entirely different ball game and that's the point.

Mob XP is the barehanded punching of earning xp. Its there so that you technically have a way up from zero in the absence of all other optrions.

As for "why level at all" the answer is that people literally didn't care about leveling before talents. By making the system restrictive, they force people to actually use it. When it only granted ATT points is was largely ignored and was actually not doing its job of controlling hoarding and preventing endless rerolling.


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18 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

The point is that requiring vessels to level is an item sink.

The point of non-sacrifice leveling is that players do not start with items to sacrifice, and players may end up in a position without items to sacrifice.

Using the xp system is not a think you only do one time. You'll need xp for every vessel you use, and you'll be throwing away old vessels as you replace them with better ones.

As you find yourself leveling these new, more powerful vessels, you'll find they require substantially more xp. Leveling a white vessel may seem trivial to the point of "why is it in the game at all?" Leveling a legendary vessel is an entirely different ball game and that's the point.

Mob XP is the barehanded punching of earning xp. Its there so that you technically have a way up from zero in the absence of all other optrions.

As for "why level at all" the answer is that people literally didn't care about leveling before talents. By making the system restrictive, they force people to actually use it. When it only granted ATT points is was largely ignored and was actually not doing its job of controlling hoarding and preventing endless rerolling.

Which is a horrible idea if your game is supposed to revolve around PvP but you have to spend a week (at the extreme legendary end) preparing just being able to participate.  Your ability to heal someone as a Cleric should not require you to level up as an example.  Leveling up should be complimentary, not a time gate. Xp and levels should build upon your character, not determine whether or not you can do the most basic thing your class is meant to do. 

Edit: Again, if you were playing EQ and were given one spell and told "Yeah no sorry you have to go PvP for a week before you can do any PvE content without getting rolled by mobs" you would uninstall immediately.

Edited by kajidourden

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Just now, kajidourden said:

Which is a horrible idea if your game is supposed to revolve around PvP but you have to spend a week (at the extreme legendary end) preparing just being able to participate.  Your ability to heal someone as a Cleric should not require you to level up as an example.  Leveling up should be complimentary, not a time gate. Xp and levels should build upon your character, not determine whether or not you can do the most basic thing your class is meant to do. 

Leveling is not a time gate. Its a wealth gate. The entire point of crowfall is to acquire wealth. The entire point of winning campaigns is to acquire wealth. That wealth needs somewhere to be useful for people that don't own or run an EK or it is effectively pointless.

When leveling was "complementary" it was basically ignored and failed to function as an item sink. During that time we also had MUCH higher item decay rates. I'd rather have longer lasting items at the expensive of needing to invest more in vessels. Especially considering vessels are the only gear that never decays.

Your ability to do literally anything in the game is contingent upon some combination of time and wealth. That's how RPG systems work. That's why you're playing an RPG in stead of an arena shooter or other genre where the whole point is maximum, immediate carnage with no set up time. Those games are cool. I like those games. I play them when I just want a casual bit of violence.

Because acquiring and denying wealth, and exploiting techniques to rapidly gain and utilize it IS PvP and is the systemic imperative that sustains the basic desire to fight in the first place.

If you don't NEED loot, then what's the point of it being in the game at all?

Crowfall's XP system ensures that you actually have a use, a real one, for every scrap of garbage you pull off of another guy's corpse, and reinforces that the other guy actually has some garbage to loot. Having a bank full of trash is not a liability. It represents an opportunity to upgrade your vessel when you otherwise would have waited for a much better upgrade. It allows people who peddle in easy to acquire low level goods to still have a market after two months. It ensures that you don't get bored fighting over nothing and getting no reward from it. It gives you something to do when there is nobody to fight because there will not always be someone to fight.

"PvP game" does not mean "PvP is the only thing you should ever do ever"

It means that PvP is the constant threat while you do other stuff, and the end goal when you have done all of the other stuff. When you remove the other stuff, or make it "only cosmetic" or "not necessary" your PvP game sucks. GW2 found that out the hard way. That's why WvW is mostly full of people capping undefended objectives to farm reward tracks for skins to use in PvE

.


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Something I'm curious about, is from what perspective the original argument comes from. Is it of the perspective of a long time player, who plays solely for the PVP--for which the leveling and time investment cuts into the hacking and slashing? A player whose done the leveling and the gear grinding time and time again, for which it's not a bit stale?

 

As a recently new player, I don't mind the short level grind. It lets me get accustomed to classes and their abilities, as well as swapping out Disciplines to test out how skills work. I can see how if someone's been doing this for months upon months, the tedium might be there. Yet for those new like I am, it may be an enjoyable system (it is for me), and that doesn't devalue it, though ones perspective may differ. 

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You can literally reach max level in under an hour at the moment. I am sure this will eventually be fixed, and of course on live you will not be able to do it, but for now, it is possible. Aside from that it is extremely easy to level to 30, and once you have a level 30? Coming by gold is extremely easy. Some classes are better than others at farming R10's to amass gold, and it takes only I believe 17.5kg to reach 1-30. If you don't have a 30? Simply find a group, it's a social game, be social!  

It's an MMORPG, not a battle royale, or arena game. This to me, is a true PvP oriented MMORPG. There's also tons to do for non-PvPers even. I know multiple people that literally only play this game because of the crafting and harvesting aspects, they don't even care to level their toons until they realize they need the attributes to better craft & harvest.

Having characters start with all talent tree skills and having no leveling? That would entirely destroy one major aspect of a PvP game... which is ganking, which would be a big no to the overall enjoyment of this game. Not to mention there'd be absolutely no sense of progression or achievement.

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I think the game should adopt the game mode of a Battle Royale as it was in the Hunger Dome, but with a progression system for players to feel motivated to play. It would be a Battle Royale with PVE elements:

1- The player chooses a faction;

2- The player goes to the Faction Temple and chooses when to enter the battlefield;

3- The system balances the lvl to the player when crossing the portal will be joined to his faction team and needs to collect resources by map, killing mobs, collecting chests and make foods;

4- The player begins to create items for him inside the map;

5- The player encounters enemies and fights with them. A kill = gold and XP.

6 - At the end of the game, the player returns to the Faction Temple and uses the items to craft and trade.

Edited by hamon

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1 hour ago, hamon said:

I think the game should adopt the game mode of a Battle Royale as it was in the Hunger Dome, but with a progression system for players to feel motivated to play. It would be a Battle Royale with PVE elements:

1- The player chooses a faction;

2- The player goes to the Faction Temple and chooses when to enter the battlefield;

3- The system balances the lvl to the player when crossing the portal will be joined to his faction team and needs to collect resources by map, killing mobs, collecting chests and make foods;

4- The player begins to create items for him inside the map;

5- The player encounters enemies and fights with them. A kill = gold and XP.

6 - At the end of the game, the player returns to the Faction Temple and uses the items to craft and trade.

no

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Ultimately this is all about skill acquisition.  If you were at least given half of your skills up-front then you could have the CHOICE about how to grind out your levels.  Right now the only option is to go out and PvE for X amount of time.  Druids can't even heal until level effing 20!  Gutting classes of their core skills and then forcing people to grind PvE to get them is not a good idea.  

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