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kajidourden

Leveling

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3 hours ago, Puffs said:

You can literally reach max level in under an hour at the moment. I am sure this will eventually be fixed, and of course on live you will not be able to do it, but for now, it is possible. Aside from that it is extremely easy to level to 30, and once you have a level 30? Coming by gold is extremely easy. Some classes are better than others at farming R10's to amass gold, and it takes only I believe 17.5kg to reach 1-30. If you don't have a 30? Simply find a group, it's a social game, be social!  

It's an MMORPG, not a battle royale, or arena game. This to me, is a true PvP oriented MMORPG. There's also tons to do for non-PvPers even. I know multiple people that literally only play this game because of the crafting and harvesting aspects, they don't even care to level their toons until they realize they need the attributes to better craft & harvest.

Having characters start with all talent tree skills and having no leveling? That would entirely destroy one major aspect of a PvP game... which is ganking, which would be a big no to the overall enjoyment of this game. Not to mention there'd be absolutely no sense of progression or achievement.

So your counter-argument is that you want to encourage griefing?  Yeah that's awesome.  

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1 hour ago, kajidourden said:

So your counter-argument is that you want to encourage griefing?  Yeah that's awesome.  

If you don't like ganking, this is not the game for you.

A gank isn't griefing, now camping someone? That's griefing. 

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what is sad is this game was supposed to be without leveling up like in other mmo's. What was the motto? End game at the start or something to that effect. Now we will have leveling gating skills, dumbing down of classes for the masses and I suspect safe zones and more ways to grind pve for pvp power. All we are missing is a cash shop that starts out with 'convenience' items to marginally p2w. I still have hope, but skepticism has set in. It seems ACE is doing a 180 in a few area's.

from their own mouth...

How do you prevent seasoned characters from smashing new players?

This is a fairly large problem for traditional (level-based) MMORPGs where high (or max) level characters are basically invincible against mid- and low-level characters. Numerically, this is often caused by power escalation: the low level warrior might hit for 10 to 20 damage while the high level hits for ~4000.

In a game that is PvP-focused, this is obviously not going to be a fun fight for the low-level player. Level-based progression systems force their players into zones based on level brackets, which really segments the population.

Since Crowfall is a very different game, we’ve approached this problem from a few different angles.

First, we are using a skill-based system; there are no levels. Without levels, the difference between a “maxed” character and a starting character is far less severe.

Second, we designed the game to have a much flatter power curve, meaning that your biggest gains for any skill (or attribute) come early and the remaining gains are all on a steep “diminishing returns” curve.

Additionally, access to equipment will be largely based on acquiring it rather than an arbitrary “level” restriction. To add to this, the power curve for equipment has been dramatically “flattened,” as well. Power gained from equipment is much smaller than in a level-based game, but still meaningful enough that players aren’t running about naked.

More action-related mechanics such as dashes and blocks will create opportunities for new players to avoid damage that isn’t based on a random number generator. Additionally, terrain and position make a huge difference, making the game much more tactical.

Lastly, because we use passive training as the primary mechanism for advancement, there is no grind for player powers or camping of monsters to find that “one rare item”. Players will essentially have a full arsenal of powers to use from the beginning.

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8 hours ago, Puffs said:

Having characters start with all talent tree skills and having no leveling? That would entirely destroy one major aspect of a PvP game... which is ganking, which would be a big no to the overall enjoyment of this game. Not to mention there'd be absolutely no sense of progression or achievement.

You must be new, cause literally 3 weeks ago thats exactly how the game worked. Every class had its base kit of 6-14 skills (depending on how many trays and such), and people had no issues ganking other people. Lone players were getting ganked left and right and coming to the forums to cry that they died while solo harvesting on a harvesting character.

The difference between then and now is that the harvesting character back then had every class skill for their class right at the start so they had the option to fight back (or run) even if they were gonna be weaker overall. There were plenty of fights and ganks for a while when the servers were active, but once people found out about 5.8 and the wipes everything died down.

Edited by ShadowwBoi13

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2 hours ago, mystafyi said:

what is sad is this game was supposed to be without leveling up like in other mmo's. What was the motto? End game at the start or something to that effect. Now we will have leveling gating skills, dumbing down of classes for the masses and I suspect safe zones and more ways to grind pve for pvp power. All we are missing is a cash shop that starts out with 'convenience' items to marginally p2w. I still have hope, but skepticism has set in. It seems ACE is doing a 180 in a few area's.

It is interesting that long time fans seem to apparently ignore all of this or don't care. Obviously games change through development, but several changes seem to go completely against what the original concept was hyping. People can rationalize, excuse, accept anything but what they initially presented/sold is changing quite a bit.

With the current system, I'd have no problem buying lvling boosts or lvl capped vessels from the store. I have no interest in whacking bad AI in sub-par PVE. I'm fine with active progression, but there are other ways to go about it.

I've mentioned it a few times, but the FAQ/site could really use an update. Not sure about others, but I usually read the FAQ entirely before playing and especially before giving money to a company. Even if they can't update it fully, simply deleting inaccurate and outdated info would be a good move.

Sad about this one:

What's the point of Playing?

I don't want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge. I want to play a GAME, against PLAYERS where my actions, my decisions and my SKILL will determine if I win or lose. -Early ACE

Edited by APE

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8 hours ago, Puffs said:

Having characters start with all talent tree skills and having no leveling? That would entirely destroy one major aspect of a PvP game... which is ganking, which would be a big no to the overall enjoyment of this game. Not to mention there'd be absolutely no sense of progression or achievement.

So add a mob grind just so people can have easy prey? Instead of actual strategic/skilled based PVP encounters. Ganking or attacking weakened/unprepared enemies is good in all in a game such as this, but you should have to put some effort and risk into it. Attacking likely lower levels/geared/skilled players while they are likely in-combat lacking health and cooldowns is low tier PVP.

Ganking someone at 50% health in the middle of a fight with a spider brings me about -5.2 achievement points.

Progression can come in many forms, be it stats, wealth, notoriety, leaderboards, etc. Leveling itself isn't an issue for me, but there should be multiple routes (more than we have now) and shouldn't be massively important to character options, at least not in the game design they initially presented.

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I think the levleling system is quite nice and the way it unlocks talents.

 

And you can find a group and do PvP even if you are not max level. That should still be competetive. Only reached level 8 so far but i got so many abilities that i don`t even know where to put them on my hotbar.

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1 hour ago, APE said:

It is interesting that long time fans seem to apparently ignore all of this or don't care. Obviously games change through development, but several changes seem to go completely against what the original concept was hyping. People can rationalize, excuse, accept anything but what they initially presented/sold is changing quite a bit.

With the current system, I'd have no problem buying lvling boosts or lvl capped vessels from the store. I have no interest in whacking bad AI in sub-par PVE. I'm fine with active progression, but there are other ways to go about it.

I've mentioned it a few times, but the FAQ/site could really use an update. Not sure about others, but I usually read the FAQ entirely before playing and especially before giving money to a company. Even if they can't update it fully, simply deleting inaccurate and outdated info would be a good move.

Sad about this one:

What's the point of Playing?

I don't want to kill more rats, fill another experience point bar or collect another meaningless badge. I want to play a GAME, against PLAYERS where my actions, my decisions and my SKILL will determine if I win or lose. -Early ACE

To be devils advocate - they just recently implemented Active Progression. They might be collecting feedback (in the feedback forum) on how to improve the system. I believe that hiding basic skills behind active progression is a poor system as well - hopefully, down the line they will just make it add stat modifiers. 

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2 hours ago, APE said:

Not for me.

Guess I missed the memo.

Not going down the road of player preference here. Talking strictly about the way the game's reward systems, as far as we know, are designed.

The point of winning a campaign, the reward, is exports.

Now we've had this conversation at length, and I know you're a person who isn't motivated by shinies and that's fine. However the entire design of the game is in fact built around wealth, specifically wealth in items, as the primary driver for all forms of PvP, from the simple gank to the throne war of winning the campaign.

A lot has changed in the design since the kickstarter, but this loop of campaign for loot>use loot in EK>Import items for next campaign has not with the exception of what I'm sure are still planned no import campaigns.

And even then, the primary reward for winning them? Exporting loot. Loot you'll never use, but still.

Those no-import campaigns though, I can see a great case for cutting them off from the loop entirely, faster or nonexistant leveling, vessels must be created for the campaign and are exploded when it ends, whole nine yards. Have all the harvesting in there spawn 10x the drops, and make the reward a leaderboard in stead of loot exports so it doesn't break the EK economy for everyone else.

Bam, problem solved right? Trivial grind, play for leaderboard position alone, no imports and no exports. Completely self contained turbo-speed crowfall with no pesky economics or progression getting in the way for people who don't like economics or progression in their PvP MMO

 

Then you just let the ruleset sink or swim like they planned for variant rulesets. If its popular enough, they keep running it. If nobody wants to play it, toss it or modify it.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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I think it's important to remember their most significant design goal isn't just a for a good encounter-pvp game, but to get a "throne war simulation" going in each campaign. That's a lot more ambitious, and it has to include gathering, production, logistics, and higher order strategies needed to survive and prosper from the hunger-death of each campaign world.

 

 

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9 hours ago, mystafyi said:

what is sad is this game was supposed to be without leveling up like in other mmo's. What was the motto? End game at the start or something to that effect. Now we will have leveling gating skills, dumbing down of classes for the masses and I suspect safe zones and more ways to grind pve for pvp power. All we are missing is a cash shop that starts out with 'convenience' items to marginally p2w. I still have hope, but skepticism has set in. It seems ACE is doing a 180 in a few area's.

from their own mouth...

How do you prevent seasoned characters from smashing new players?

This is a fairly large problem for traditional (level-based) MMORPGs where high (or max) level characters are basically invincible against mid- and low-level characters. Numerically, this is often caused by power escalation: the low level warrior might hit for 10 to 20 damage while the high level hits for ~4000.

In a game that is PvP-focused, this is obviously not going to be a fun fight for the low-level player. Level-based progression systems force their players into zones based on level brackets, which really segments the population.

Since Crowfall is a very different game, we’ve approached this problem from a few different angles.

First, we are using a skill-based system; there are no levels. Without levels, the difference between a “maxed” character and a starting character is far less severe.

Second, we designed the game to have a much flatter power curve, meaning that your biggest gains for any skill (or attribute) come early and the remaining gains are all on a steep “diminishing returns” curve.

Additionally, access to equipment will be largely based on acquiring it rather than an arbitrary “level” restriction. To add to this, the power curve for equipment has been dramatically “flattened,” as well. Power gained from equipment is much smaller than in a level-based game, but still meaningful enough that players aren’t running about naked.

More action-related mechanics such as dashes and blocks will create opportunities for new players to avoid damage that isn’t based on a random number generator. Additionally, terrain and position make a huge difference, making the game much more tactical.

Lastly, because we use passive training as the primary mechanism for advancement, there is no grind for player powers or camping of monsters to find that “one rare item”. Players will essentially have a full arsenal of powers to use from the beginning.

Yeah, this is the biggest thing honestly.  This represents a change in what they pitched when people gave them money.  It's pretty bait and switch tbh.

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4 hours ago, kajidourden said:

Yeah, this is the biggest thing honestly.  This represents a change in what they pitched when people gave them money.  It's pretty bait and switch tbh.

They came closer to achieving this in Shadowbane.

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14 hours ago, mystafyi said:

what is sad is this game was supposed to be without leveling up like in other mmo's. What was the motto? End game at the start or something to that effect. Now we will have leveling gating skills, dumbing down of classes for the masses and I suspect safe zones and more ways to grind pve for pvp power. All we are missing is a cash shop that starts out with 'convenience' items to marginally p2w. I still have hope, but skepticism has set in. It seems ACE is doing a 180 in a few area's.

from their own mouth...

How do you prevent seasoned characters from smashing new players?

This is a fairly large problem for traditional (level-based) MMORPGs where high (or max) level characters are basically invincible against mid- and low-level characters. Numerically, this is often caused by power escalation: the low level warrior might hit for 10 to 20 damage while the high level hits for ~4000.

In a game that is PvP-focused, this is obviously not going to be a fun fight for the low-level player. Level-based progression systems force their players into zones based on level brackets, which really segments the population.

Since Crowfall is a very different game, we’ve approached this problem from a few different angles.

First, we are using a skill-based system; there are no levels. Without levels, the difference between a “maxed” character and a starting character is far less severe.

Second, we designed the game to have a much flatter power curve, meaning that your biggest gains for any skill (or attribute) come early and the remaining gains are all on a steep “diminishing returns” curve.

Additionally, access to equipment will be largely based on acquiring it rather than an arbitrary “level” restriction. To add to this, the power curve for equipment has been dramatically “flattened,” as well. Power gained from equipment is much smaller than in a level-based game, but still meaningful enough that players aren’t running about naked.

More action-related mechanics such as dashes and blocks will create opportunities for new players to avoid damage that isn’t based on a random number generator. Additionally, terrain and position make a huge difference, making the game much more tactical.

Lastly, because we use passive training as the primary mechanism for advancement, there is no grind for player powers or camping of monsters to find that “one rare item”. Players will essentially have a full arsenal of powers to use from the beginning.

 

4 hours ago, kajidourden said:

Yeah, this is the biggest thing honestly.  This represents a change in what they pitched when people gave them money.  It's pretty bait and switch tbh.

Oh man, don't get me started... I've felt pretty burned since the introduction of 5.8 because of this...  I'm this >.< close to throwing up my hands and screaming WTF at the top of my lungs. 


Eat or be eaten

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13 hours ago, ilogos said:

To be devils advocate - they just recently implemented Active Progression. They might be collecting feedback (in the feedback forum) on how to improve the system. I believe that hiding basic skills behind active progression is a poor system as well - hopefully, down the line they will just make it add stat modifiers. 

They've had vessel leveling for a good while. I'm all for more in-game active progression, but I would prefer more options and little to no gating of class function behind it. If players can max level in a weekend or whatever, no biggie, but with the cost increasing with quality, seems like the typical mindless PVE grind games have done much better for a long time.

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12 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Not going down the road of player preference here. Talking strictly about the way the game's reward systems, as far as we know, are designed.

The point of winning a campaign, the reward, is exports.

Now we've had this conversation at length, and I know you're a person who isn't motivated by shinies and that's fine. However the entire design of the game is in fact built around wealth, specifically wealth in items, as the primary driver for all forms of PvP, from the simple gank to the throne war of winning the campaign.

A lot has changed in the design since the kickstarter, but this loop of campaign for loot>use loot in EK>Import items for next campaign has not with the exception of what I'm sure are still planned no import campaigns.

And even then, the primary reward for winning them? Exporting loot. Loot you'll never use, but still.

Those no-import campaigns though, I can see a great case for cutting them off from the loop entirely, faster or nonexistant leveling, vessels must be created for the campaign and are exploded when it ends, whole nine yards. Have all the harvesting in there spawn 10x the drops, and make the reward a leaderboard in stead of loot exports so it doesn't break the EK economy for everyone else.

Bam, problem solved right? Trivial grind, play for leaderboard position alone, no imports and no exports. Completely self contained turbo-speed crowfall with no pesky economics or progression getting in the way for people who don't like economics or progression in their PvP MMO

Then you just let the ruleset sink or swim like they planned for variant rulesets. If its popular enough, they keep running it. If nobody wants to play it, toss it or modify it.

I'd likely fully enjoy what you described and with what they have said and shown, seems entirely possible. There are so many ways they could setup campaigns and how the overall game and economy work together (or not).

I agree that wealth/power are the goals overall, but that can come in various forms along with the cost to keep it.

Vessel leveling as a major time/item sink works but seems like low hanging fruit and not much different then every themepark out there. Grind for the sake of grind because you have no choice. People will go the path of least resistance. 

I'd rather sacrifice to boost guild performance as a whole (harvesting, crafting, siege weapon power, wall strength, guard strength). Instead of focusing on little ole me and my stats, not to mention class/character function being gated behind this. I'd rather spend time out capturing POI, harvesting, revealing the map, or whatever else that could provide vessel experience.

Let players decide what is important to them. As is, there is no choice but to spend time bashing mindless AI or toss goods in the trash bin. It's a start, but plenty of games do quite a lot more.

Maybe going for a more complex player choice driven system would be more work upfront, but long term I believe it would make for a better experience.

At some point players will have a stock pile of capped high quality vessels or sacrifice goods and without loss/decay the system is going to start to fall short. Fix in then I guess.

I do prefer the active in-game system to the passive/active mix they had before, but just wish they were more creative or had the resources to do more.

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2 hours ago, APE said:

I'd likely fully enjoy what you described and with what they have said and shown, seems entirely possible. There are so many ways they could setup campaigns and how the overall game and economy work together (or not).

I agree that wealth/power are the goals overall, but that can come in various forms along with the cost to keep it.

Vessel leveling as a major time/item sink works but seems like low hanging fruit and not much different then every themepark out there. Grind for the sake of grind because you have no choice. People will go the path of least resistance. 

I'd rather sacrifice to boost guild performance as a whole (harvesting, crafting, siege weapon power, wall strength, guard strength). Instead of focusing on little ole me and my stats, not to mention class/character function being gated behind this. I'd rather spend time out capturing POI, harvesting, revealing the map, or whatever else that could provide vessel experience.

Let players decide what is important to them. As is, there is no choice but to spend time bashing mindless AI or toss goods in the trash bin. It's a start, but plenty of games do quite a lot more.

Maybe going for a more complex player choice driven system would be more work upfront, but long term I believe it would make for a better experience.

At some point players will have a stock pile of capped high quality vessels or sacrifice goods and without loss/decay the system is going to start to fall short. Fix in then I guess.

I do prefer the active in-game system to the passive/active mix they had before, but just wish they were more creative or had the resources to do more.

I think it's important to keep in mind they're still establishing the baseline from which all variants can derive.

I agree that the placement and pacing of power gains for certain classes talent trees feel off, and frontloading that first node with maybe 2 powers and a passive would ease it. However the talent system is a really popular and well received change in CONCEPT and a core functionality balance lever for character creation.

If there's going to be any version of a gain xp learn talents system, it sort of has to be built in advance as it it necessarily more complex than, say, get a vP gain a talent point system.

I know Todd has expressed in the past how much he likes the idea of building a system that's easy to add variations to, but really stuff like character advancement and crafting's "vanilla" version probably benefits more for permitting the most complex version first.

There's certainly a large selection of players that want a less loot focused game and it seems far easier to remove that complexity postlaunch and then build upon existing stable systems than trying to build out something more complex from a foundation with no concept of relation between value and time of various elements.

My personal dream variant is a take on the shadowbane lore server system, where players must create factions from a set of themed templates. I liked that system a lot for the variation in fights and group specs and how it emphasized creative build crafting.

A guild level system within campaigns also sounds cool as a more freeform version of that idea. Rather than being restricted you build on a system of buffs e.g. " all minotaurs in your guild have +100 con" or "your clerics gain the ability to equip heavy armor" or "your guild can solo motherlodes" and you sort of freeform build a more style faction with systemic strengths and weaknesses starting from the baseline neutral specs of the base game.

Edited by PopeUrban

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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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22 hours ago, mystafyi said:

Lastly, because we use passive training as the primary mechanism for advancement, there is no grind for player powers or camping of monsters to find that “one rare item”. Players will essentially have a full arsenal of powers to use from the beginning.

Please define "Grind" and "the beginning" as you understand it.

I define "grind" as something that takes unreasonable time so as to extend the content life of a game artificially. MMO's with little content that force you into a repeated set of tasks and every stage of play, for seemingly no other reason that to obligate you to play the same content over and over. 

In the last two weekends, I have leveled 4 vessels to 30, in what I know is not the fastest way to do it.  I barely spent any time with a group leveling, and spent zero gold on XP.

Come a new world with a zero level character and no historical resources, I am confident with what I know now to be able to hit 30 in under 3 hours of play. That rapid of level advancement is not grind.  Passive training for professions, still takes ages longer chronologically.

"The beginning" as I define is, the first 10% of time of a campaigns life.

Since we expect campaigns to last 90+days, 9 days falls into that definition.  These 48 hour campaigns are an extreme aberration, and even with that, if I start into a world the moment I land, I can still hit level 30 before 10% of the campaign time has expired.

For the record, I do think there is a significant problem that could be seen as grind right now, and that is for the first set of quality gear from a material acquisition point of view.

But the leveling, with the sacrifice ability to spend 17500 GP to hit 30 in a couple of minutes, that's not grind.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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24 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Please define "Grind" and "the beginning" as you understand it. 

Beginning mean the start. I will agree with you that grinding is subjective. I will concede that currently it does not take long to grind out 30 vessel levels, but just like passive xp gain It could very well be inflated at 10x or 3x speed. 

30 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

But the leveling, with the sacrifice ability to spend 17500 GP to hit 30 in a couple of minutes, that's not grind.

If one can bypass this mechanic so easily then why even have it?  This is something ACE specifically said they would NOT do.

The game was promoted as not having levels and not having pve grind to open up combat skills that are gated by levels. Filling up a xp bar by doing meaningless pve tasks was also something that was NOT going to be in this game as per ACE. 

In any event All I can do is post my feeling towards this issue and hope ACE will take into account those of us that don't like this new direction.

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there is two big problem around:

1) if you start map later you should go to the mob spawns in canyons (high rank of mobs) which are full of gankers and big groups (to reach 20+ lvl). you will get ganked all the time.

2) not any normal player wont go out of safe zone if he does not get minimum (mount, gear, needed skills which are given after 20lvl). and ofc wont participate in capturing/wars and such.

true for current map size and for a small/solo players. and current class balance which are terrible as asssss

 

ps. if you really think solo/very small scale players is nothing or this game is for zerg/group/guilds, well, this game will not success

Edited by makkon

crowfall pvp makkonMyrmidon statement: Out of Fury

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