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kajidourden

Leveling

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Man, I remember when I was against active leveling before it was cool. :lol:

I've expressed in the feedback thread with what I currently take issue regarding leveling and talents, but I am also taking comfort in that, from what I've seen and heard, newcomers to the game (as of 5.8) don't seem to take issue with the leveling at all.

Edited by moneda

Hi, I'm moneda.

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On 12/23/2018 at 10:11 PM, mystafyi said:

Beginning mean the start. I will agree with you that grinding is subjective. I will concede that currently it does not take long to grind out 30 vessel levels, but just like passive xp gain It could very well be inflated at 10x or 3x speed. 

If one can bypass this mechanic so easily then why even have it?  This is something ACE specifically said they would NOT do.

The game was promoted as not having levels and not having pve grind to open up combat skills that are gated by levels. Filling up a xp bar by doing meaningless pve tasks was also something that was NOT going to be in this game as per ACE. 

In any event All I can do is post my feeling towards this issue and hope ACE will take into account those of us that don't like this new direction.

Sounds like you have the same mindset as myself and several others.  The bottom line is PvE should not be required for PvP in a PvP game.  

Edit: A word

Edited by kajidourden

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I think the progression along with other things to do besides just running around in a 10+ man group blobing into other 10+ man groups makes the game feel more like an actual game with a tangible world and less like a battle arena which is something they were trying to avoid. I like the fact that the world isn't safe, you can get ganked doing other activities that might not directly involve pvp, the fact you always have to be aware of your surrounds. It adds a lot of threat to the world and gets your heart pumping. I don't like the fact you start with zero abilities, and I think ability progression should take a slightly different form while still maintaining the active progression. The reality is that when you're pveing you're pvping, or at least wide open to the activity to pvp. The same as when you're harvesting, which I don't see you making an argument against since that is way more time intensive and even more of a necessity.

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I think you are guys are getting confused. From what I saw you guys dont dislike the actual Lvling as much as you dislike being forced to PvE or grind. It sounds the same but it is not.

The best option IMO is to make PvP stuff reward more XP, make it the most efficient way to level. The problem with that is people most likely wont be using their new untrained vessel in PVP.

One idea that I will toss out here is making PVP experience items. Items that you get by PVPing with your max character that you can simply give to your new character to sacrifice for faster lvling.

Skulls seems the most obvious choice. Are we able to sacrifice those as of now? It makes sense to me those would be worth quite a bit of XP.

Another one could be items given to everyone who took part in a siege. Once the siege concludes the winners could get, say, a medal with the siege information and their contribution. The more you did in the siege the more XP the medals are worth.

EDIT: Those items should somehow lose their XP value once a time limit pass. Otherwise people will just hoard those for weeks/months and not go out to PvP when they need to level a new character.

Again, I just think some people here are hating the system instead of trying to improve it.

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3 hours ago, BarriaKarl said:

I think you are guys are getting confused. From what I saw you guys dont dislike the actual Lvling as much as you dislike being forced to PvE or grind. It sounds the same but it is not.

The best option IMO is to make PvP stuff reward more XP, make it the most efficient way to level. The problem with that is people most likely wont be using their new untrained vessel in PVP.

One idea that I will toss out here is making PVP experience items. Items that you get by PVPing with your max character that you can simply give to your new character to sacrifice for faster lvling.

Skulls seems the most obvious choice. Are we able to sacrifice those as of now? It makes sense to me those would be worth quite a bit of XP.

Another one could be items given to everyone who took part in a siege. Once the siege concludes the winners could get, say, a medal with the siege information and their contribution. The more you did in the siege the more XP the medals are worth.

EDIT: Those items should somehow lose their XP value once a time limit pass. Otherwise people will just hoard those for weeks/months and not go out to PvP when they need to level a new character.

Again, I just think some people here are hating the system instead of trying to improve it.

There's already an xp reward for PvP.

Its the inventory of the player you killed.

You just have to farm the right players.

Killing other players is hands down the most efficient method of leveling as someone else already did the grinding for you.

Solo ganking is a far better use of your underleveld character than trying to take it to some giant fort fight, as you're more likely to not only fight characters of a similar or lower poer level, they're more likely to have something in their pockets worth a good chunk of XP and be alone.

It just needs a few more skills on the first node for most classes, and a more sensible distribution of the remaining skills on some trees (looking at you, Assassin who somehow doesn't get stealth+backstab as the very first node)

Edited by PopeUrban

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

There's already an xp reward for PvP.

Its the inventory of the player you killed.

You just have to farm the right players.

Killing other players is hands down the most efficient method of leveling as someone else already did the grinding for you.

Solo ganking is a far better use of your underleveld character than trying to take it to some giant fort fight, as you're more likely to not only fight characters of a similar or lower poer level, they're more likely to have something in their pockets worth a good chunk of XP and be alone.

It just needs a few more skills on the first node for most classes, and a more sensible distribution of the remaining skills on some trees (looking at you, Assassin who somehow doesn't get stealth+backstab as the very first node)

Nobody is going to run out there with just their LMB and do anything of any consequence, ESPECIALLY when you join a campaign in progress.  Keep that in mind too, not everyone is going to be there from the very first second the campaign starts.  You can't solo gank anyone when most have a huge head-start on you.

Again though, this is why straight vertical leveling wasn't supposed to be a thing according to ACE.  Too many things to balance around it and they said they wanted a relatively flat power curve, this ain't it.

Edited by kajidourden

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Just now, kajidourden said:

Agreed.  Because nobody is going to run out there with just their LMB and do anything of any consequence, ESPECIALLY when you join a campaign in progress.  Keep that in mind too, not everyone is going to be there from the very first second the campaign starts.  You can't solo gank anyone when most have a huge head-start on you.

Again though, this is why straight vertical leveling wasn't supposed to be a thing according to ACE.  Too many things to balance around it and they said they wanted a relatively flat power curve, this ain't it.

Campaigns, when fully implemented, are supposed to have narrow join windows for exactly this reason last I heard.

Also keep in mind in the vast majority of campaigns players will begin the campaign with not only leveled vessels, but a limited amount of imported equipment. If you're concerned with starting with nothing compared to others, my guess is your two options are either to play a campaign without imports, or import your stuff.

You keep talking about campaigns like you think people are going to start every one with a level zero poorly made socksty white vessel. Even in no-import campaigns everything we have been told at this point indicates this is not the case in the revised vessel design. Part of that vessel design was to allow you to play one character forever if you so choose to do so. I'll admit that in practice this would be a stupid thing to choose to do and in reality the plan now seems to mean "you can take your sweet ass time upgrading your vessel"

There is a relatively flat power curve past the bare minimum of leveling up and equipping real equipment, both things I'd argue are net positive speedbumps as they prevent rampant alt-milling (making characters for a single task and then immediately deleting them to replace with another, over and over) provide strong sacrifice incentive to help control inflation in the item economy, and help ensure that ganking people for loot remains attractive even if you don't particularly need the loot.

Where we DO agree is that level zero is too limiting. Giving the player the entire kit at level zero seems like a bad fit not only for tutorialization, but for balance, as it is worth keeping in mind that talent points are intended to be much more valuable in the next version of the system. You're looking at at potentially 4 talent points spent per major, and however many talent points are spendable as they remove weapon mastry discs from the game and implement them as talents. Even in the current system there are many templates where I literally skip core class powers in order to place the talent in to a stat node. The entire kit is not a given. For many classes the majority of those powers can be skipped, and in a talent tree with potentially 12 more nodes to access disc powers or weapon mastry powers there seems to be an intent to give players a compelling reason to skip powers.

I think three is a fair amount. Its enough to get the class' most signature unskippable abilities and have something to do other than auto at early levels. If that's too OP for some classes, give them weaker versions of the skills and use the existing nodes to upgrade the ability to its final form.


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Just now, PopeUrban said:

Campaigns, when fully implemented, are supposed to have narrow join windows for exactly this reason last I heard.

Also keep in mind in the vast majority of campaigns players will begin the campaign with not only leveled vessels, but a limited amount of imported equipment. If you're concerned with starting with nothing compared to others, my guess is your two options are either to play a campaign without imports, or import your stuff.

You keep talking about campaigns like you think people are going to start every one with a level zero poorly made socksty white vessel. Even in no-import campaigns everything we have been told at this point indicates this is not the case in the revised vessel design. Part of that vessel design was to allow you to play one character forever if you so choose to do so. I'll admit that in practice this would be a stupid thing to choose to do and in reality the plan now seems to mean "you can take your sweet ass time upgrading your vessel"

There is a relatively flat power curve past the bare minimum of leveling up and equipping real equipment, both things I'd argue are net positive speedbumps as they prevent rampant alt-milling (making characters for a single task and then immediately deleting them to replace with another, over and over) provide strong sacrifice incentive to help control inflation in the item economy, and help ensure that ganking people for loot remains attractive even if you don't particularly need the loot.

Where we DO agree is that level zero is too limiting. Giving the player the entire kit at level zero seems like a bad fit not only for tutorialization, but for balance, as it is worth keeping in mind that talent points are intended to be much more valuable in the next version of the system. You're looking at at potentially 4 talent points spent per major, and however many talent points are spendable as they remove weapon mastry discs from the game and implement them as talents. Even in the current system there are many templates where I literally skip core class powers in order to place the talent in to a stat node. The entire kit is not a given. For many classes the majority of those powers can be skipped, and in a talent tree with potentially 12 more nodes to access disc powers or weapon mastry powers there seems to be an intent to give players a compelling reason to skip powers.

I think three is a fair amount. Its enough to get the class' most signature unskippable abilities and have something to do other than auto at early levels. If that's too OP for some classes, give them weaker versions of the skills and use the existing nodes to upgrade the ability to its final form.

Because I'm looking at this from a brand new player's perspective, as we all should.  If we want people to play the game with, they have to actually be able to participate.

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Just now, kajidourden said:

Because I'm looking at this from a brand new player's perspective, as we all should.  If we want people to play the game with, they have to actually be able to participate.

New players aren't the ones complaining about the talent system as far as I've seen. Only people that were around in 5.7


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So I am a new player and I was excited about leveling as it glacé a short sense of progression and hopefully another avenue of customization. With that said I think the major issue is the power curve. Right now a be player (who doesn’t have a main that can funnel items into an alt to level quickly) is at an awkward point. The power difference in a low level character vs a high level character means you are best just grinding till 30. You should be able to have some impact at 15 in a seige or defense. I think the biggest thing is that the leveling trees need to be reworked. They need to decide if they want any levels to be like a tutorial (say 1-5) and give a large majority of the base classes abilities here.

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1 hour ago, PopeUrban said:

New players aren't the ones complaining about the talent system as far as I've seen. Only people that were around in 5.7

I mean, i've popped in for things but never played more than an hour before 5.8, so I would consider myself a new player.  I'm definitely complaining about it.  

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5 minutes ago, Phalaphone said:

So I am a new player and I was excited about leveling as it glacé a short sense of progression and hopefully another avenue of customization. With that said I think the major issue is the power curve. Right now a be player (who doesn’t have a main that can funnel items into an alt to level quickly) is at an awkward point. The power difference in a low level character vs a high level character means you are best just grinding till 30. You should be able to have some impact at 15 in a seige or defense. I think the biggest thing is that the leveling trees need to be reworked. They need to decide if they want any levels to be like a tutorial (say 1-5) and give a large majority of the base classes abilities here.

Exactly.  The leveling system in its current iteration is vertical and exponential increase in power....the exact opposite of their "mission statement"

Edited by kajidourden

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17 minutes ago, Phalaphone said:

So I am a new player and I was excited about leveling as it glacé a short sense of progression and hopefully another avenue of customization. With that said I think the major issue is the power curve. Right now a be player (who doesn’t have a main that can funnel items into an alt to level quickly) is at an awkward point. The power difference in a low level character vs a high level character means you are best just grinding till 30. You should be able to have some impact at 15 in a seige or defense. I think the biggest thing is that the leveling trees need to be reworked. They need to decide if they want any levels to be like a tutorial (say 1-5) and give a large majority of the base classes abilities here.

 

11 minutes ago, kajidourden said:

Exactly.  The leveling system in its current iteration is vertical and exponential increase in power....the exact opposite of their "mission statement"

This is the first iteration of the mechanic.  Things are bound to be wonky.  

It would be more helpful to suggest improvements, and Phalaphone did that, than to just complain that you don't like it and think ACE is going back on their word. 

The big problem as I see it, is there is very little intermediate content. You are either at 20+ will all your kit powers, and a set of white at least advanced gear, or your not effective.  

Let me be clear,  that should not matter for large fights.

From my experience this last weekend, we had a guy who was not level capped, did not have a mount, who managed through skill to get two kills in our 20+ v 20+ fights.  

It's not just DPS, and that's part of the problem.  Many players are so used to the PvE roles in a groups, and the importance of DPS, they don't see how learning the skills, even if your less impactful in the fights, never hurts your side and is worth your time to do.

A crappy mechanic with a full tool box is still a crappy mechanic.

With how low the durability hit penalty is, there is no reason to avoid joining the larger frays. Even a guy just standing with everyone else or dead on the ground watching and listening to how the fight plays out, can learn something valuable. 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Weighing in  .. The talent system is great . It creates diverse chars . It is not fixable you mess up take the penalty of making a new char. The leveling well at least it has people in the adventure zones. Either raiding or being raided. If we had boss mobs to be camped with greater experience/gold/sacrifice items it would help. 

As is the goal is to level to 20s and use the gold you gathered to level the rest of the way. Im okay with that. But, when we start using crafted bodies that exp cost so much more.things will get more and more hectic . If i remember correctly a orange body on test was over 5k a level. That is a lot of investment so you might want to make sure every talent is in place and you REALLLY want to play that vessel.

Over all as much as i hate it and as lazy as i am . I think its a move in the right direction. As long as you can easily group farm/level and do not get the exp hit reduction.

0-30 level in an hour of farming is far easier than most games.  

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19 minutes ago, dolmar said:

Weighing in  .. The talent system is great . It creates diverse chars . It is not fixable you mess up take the penalty of making a new char. The leveling well at least it has people in the adventure zones. Either raiding or being raided. If we had boss mobs to be camped with greater experience/gold/sacrifice items it would help. 

As is the goal is to level to 20s and use the gold you gathered to level the rest of the way. Im okay with that. But, when we start using crafted bodies that exp cost so much more.things will get more and more hectic . If i remember correctly a orange body on test was over 5k a level. That is a lot of investment so you might want to make sure every talent is in place and you REALLLY want to play that vessel.

Over all as much as i hate it and as lazy as i am . I think its a move in the right direction. As long as you can easily group farm/level and do not get the exp hit reduction.

0-30 level in an hour of farming is far easier than most games.  

I suspect, at least for myself, I will just factor in the cost of leveling to the cost of the body, if purchased.

Poorly rolled greens were going for what, 40k each in 5.7?  XP cost is going to be just another cost of doing business when it comes to the high end vessels. 

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2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

 

This is the first iteration of the mechanic.  Things are bound to be wonky.  

It would be more helpful to suggest improvements, and Phalaphone did that, than to just complain that you don't like it and think ACE is going back on their word. 

The big problem as I see it, is there is very little intermediate content. You are either at 20+ will all your kit powers, and a set of white at least advanced gear, or your not effective.  

Let me be clear,  that should not matter for large fights.

From my experience this last weekend, we had a guy who was not level capped, did not have a mount, who managed through skill to get two kills in our 20+ v 20+ fights.  

It's not just DPS, and that's part of the problem.  Many players are so used to the PvE roles in a groups, and the importance of DPS, they don't see how learning the skills, even if your less impactful in the fights, never hurts your side and is worth your time to do.

A crappy mechanic with a full tool box is still a crappy mechanic.

With how low the durability hit penalty is, there is no reason to avoid joining the larger frays. Even a guy just standing with everyone else or dead on the ground watching and listening to how the fight plays out, can learn something valuable. 

Problem is it's more like being a mechanic with NO tools.  Doesn't matter how good or bad you are if it's not physically possible to do the job.  Druid getting heals at level 20 is a pretty good example of this.

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7 minutes ago, kajidourden said:

Problem is it's more like being a mechanic with NO tools.  Doesn't matter how good or bad you are if it's not physically possible to do the job.  Druid getting heals at level 20 is a pretty good example of this.

And this to my knowledge has already been acknowledged by ACE as a problem.

There is a difference between a full system being a problem, and there being some balance/choice issues with its implementation.

The first Major Discipline is where I would draw the line on finally viable to go into the world with some powers, and that happens sub level 10, 7 I think.

Not sure if it's 7 or 8 because on a zero imports and a clear character, I usually make at least 10 before I leave the noob zone, just sacrificing meat and bandages.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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2 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

 

This is the first iteration of the mechanic.  Things are bound to be wonky.  

It would be more helpful to suggest improvements, and Phalaphone did that, than to just complain that you don't like it and think ACE is going back on their word. 

The big problem as I see it, is there is very little intermediate content. You are either at 20+ will all your kit powers, and a set of white at least advanced gear, or your not effective.  

Sadly, its black and white here. Its not as you say, thinking ACE is backtracking, ACE said no levels and gating skills skills behind levels, no filling some arbitrary xp bar just for the sake of having it.  While I do understand they added this to appease the masses of the typical mmo base that is used to gaining some sort of achievement every time they login, I came to crowfall since it was NOT going to be like that. 

Now, you are correct I should take the time to give better feedback then "I don't like it", It is the holidays and my poor brain is overloaded with other issues at this moment and I couldn't do such feedback justice currently, but I will soon! 

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11 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

Sadly, its black and white here. Its not as you say, thinking ACE is backtracking, ACE said no levels and gating skills skills behind levels, no filling some arbitrary xp bar just for the sake of having it.  While I do understand they added this to appease the masses of the typical mmo base that is used to gaining some sort of achievement every time they login, I came to crowfall since it was NOT going to be like that. 

Now, you are correct I should take the time to give better feedback then "I don't like it", It is the holidays and my poor brain is overloaded with other issues at this moment and I couldn't do such feedback justice currently, but I will soon! 

That's where we disagree I think.

It's not just leveling people asked for, or an arbitrary XP bar, they asked for several things that this mechanic provides.

  • Differentiation of characters, so for example not all the rangers would look and act the same for example.
  • The ability to experiment with different and creative builds.
  • A way to "break" you build, without it breaking your account.  Previously you could break your account with months of passive training that could not be undone or replaced easily.
  • Active progression, because it's expected.  Achievers need to achieve, and leveling is a tried and true way to accomplish content for them.
  • Time for players to absorb new information and abilities in a progressive way.  You have to learn to turn a screw, and use a wrench, before you can put in a lift kit. We were getting piles and piles of our abilities all at once, and trying to figure out which ones work well with which ones, frankly takes far more time if you have too many options and just start button mashing hopping that one or this one is the right one.

When you get a chance, do some reading and examining of the different player types from the link above. 

A good MMO NEEDS them all in balance to work, and prior to the talents system CF was lacking in active achievements.  

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

That's where we disagree I think.

It's not just leveling people asked for, or an arbitrary XP bar, they asked for several things that this mechanic provides.

  • Differentiation of characters, so for example not all the rangers would look and act the same for example.
  • The ability to experiment with different and creative builds.
  • A way to "break" you build, without it breaking your account.  Previously you could break your account with months of passive training that could not be undone or replaced easily.
  • Active progression, because it's expected.  Achievers need to achieve, and leveling is a tried and true way to accomplish content for them.

When you get a chance, do some reading and examining of the different player types from the link above. 

A good MMO NEEDS them all in balance to work, and prior to the talents system CF was lacking in active achievements big time.  

 

Except ACE literally said they did not want that to be part of the game and part of the reason people gave them money was for that reason.  It is %100 black and white, there's no other way to interpret it when they literally stated it themselves (as shown in earlier quotes in this thread).

Now, this system isn't set in stone...but as of today, the leveling system directly contradicts part of their initial design principles.  That is a fact.

And again, I don't necessarily want it to go away entirely....but it's broken as is.  The current implementation perfectly demonstrates why they wanted to avoid it.

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