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kajidourden

Leveling

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1 hour ago, Frykka said:

f9nbMS7.jpg


...  fill another experience point bar

...  fill another experience point bar

...  fill another experience point bar

...  fill another experience point bar

guess what we get to do again today!  Kill (rats) or spiders or cats or zombies to


...  fill another experience point bar

/fin

 

-drops truth grenade-


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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11 minutes ago, srathor said:

You should not forget how to play a class just because of the new vessel. In fact I would say once you build a white body of a class it gets saved that you mastered that class, and any new vessel of a class you mastered, would start at that "level". Saved account wide, so you never have to do that "starter" again. Any new levels with a new body and mastered class would just be refining what you already know. 

 

I definitely agree with this... Re-leveling over and over just isn't fun. 

You shouldn't be sent back to 1 unless you opt in by choosing a new TYPE of vessel or choosing to start from scratch. 

(I also think white should cap at 10, and green should then start at ten.. but thats another story)

 

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23 hours ago, hamon said:

They are only meeting the request of VETs players who have asked to take advantage of allowing them to easily win a battle with grind and more grind wall. For me, the game returned to the original base: a game focused on battle of thrones where everyone can win and no one can trust anyone with very much betrayal.

There was a stream a while back in that it was stated they were looking for a way to cater to players that can only log in for very short periods at a time. How to give a feeling of achievement and progression for some types of players. Next iteration they came out with this monstrosity. There are much better idea's to engage those type of players then current leveling dynamics. Going into details here would be a waste of time sadly, unless its posted in the development partners sub-forum I don't think it will be seen by a dev.

Edited by mystafyi

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Just as counterpoint to my earlier post about Trying out different builds and classes, TEST server does allow you to level to 30 at the first Sac pit in starter zone before Temple Gateway. The vendors there allow you to buy free gear, mats AND GOLD. 

Advanced Armour but only basic weapons so you'll need to head to a Keep to craft a Staff or Orb etc. or any Advanced weapon

Recommend you hit up test and play with the new Skill trees and Discs.

 

Good Hunting

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On 12/22/2018 at 5:27 PM, Helix said:

Not a fan of starting with no abilities (especially in pvp), but I like the idea of active progression (long as it's sane and doesn't require you to give up your job).

The game can't revolve around just siege based pvp. Get people out there doing different stuff, leveling, harvesting etc. I need people to gank.

The benefit of staring with 1 attack and gaining abilities as you level is you get to learn the abilities.   I found when you got all the abilities at once, I had a hard time remembering what each power did.   But them my memory is shot. 

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Crowfall should find an exit strategy for leveling, as soon as possible. While doing a wonderful job to lift rewarding mechanics and introduce some fresh ideas in other areas of the game, the implementation of leveling is a failure. And for good reason, I’d argue, because it simply does not have a valid reason to exist in Crowfall; at least not in the traditional sense.

Frankly, the leveling mechanic for Crowfall to introduce skills or ‘ready’ the player is just unimaginative design.  

I’d rather you drop the new player into an instance based siege with NPCs, introducing skills, combinations and some tactical foundations.  The skill and mastery of which we exit from the introduction instance could provide us a baseline vessel. Perhaps, even a method to acquire a slightly more powerful vessel depending on our performance.  The new player could attempt the instance (generated gameplay as to introduce elements of surprise) until they feel comfortable to dive into the zones and concept of real risk.

Training dummies should also be converted into intelligent AI that can be dueled against.  The player could select which type of class they wish to engage against when initializing a duel.

Of course, I acknowledge that a single post isn’t going to cover all the design decisions required to create, modify or address issues in designing an alternative.  However, I am extremely disappointed and frustrated with this current direction of leveling as a means of progression or introduction to skills.  You guys are better than this.

Edited by subroutine42

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The white vessel should be the character's backstory.  The reason they were chosen by the gods. 

Once you get the white vessel done, you should never have to redo the start from LMB with that Class. 

Other classes sure. Level again to 30. 

Once you get a new vessel after mastering your old one. You should start with the mastered stats and level up to the new stats. Getting familiar with the body and the new limits of that vessel. 

You should not lose capability.

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Just a thought, and one I'm sure wouldn't be popular. But, what if getting the next tier of vessel involved you getting to certain milestones with your white vessel? Like killing a certain number of x mob, another number of y mob, getting a certain number of campaign points, or even getting a certain number of pvp kills?

 

 You could even go so far as to be able to meet some milestone on a crafting/harvesting character. Harvest x number of wood (different tiers and such).

 

Not sure if it's possible, but it would make it so people would have to work doing what that vessel is created to do to be able to advance in a vessel.

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It can not be overstated enough how poorly made socksty this leveling system is. Especially when you start getting to leveling vessels. Putting in xp for doing things like crafting and harvesting or capturing thing is not going to fix this. Not having your abilities seriously suck. Try being a druid and not having anything but an electrocute and a LMB until you're more than halfway through your leveling because Gaia's Wail is broken. And even those are on a big  cooldown.

Being level 30 with all your abilities for a while, then you go to level a new vessel--which is essentially a suped up version of yourself--but instead you are left with 0 goddamn abilities once again and now IT'S EVEN HARDER TO LEVEL! So you're stuck with nothing even longer. Is it too much to ask vessel grant your talents and the leveling is just to unlock what the new vessel gives--MORE STATS!?!

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11 hours ago, Navystylz said:

It can not be overstated enough how poorly made socksty this leveling system is. Especially when you start getting to leveling vessels. Putting in xp for doing things like crafting and harvesting or capturing thing is not going to fix this. Not having your abilities seriously suck. Try being a druid and not having anything but an electrocute and a LMB until you're more than halfway through your leveling because Gaia's Wail is broken. And even those are on a big  cooldown.

Being level 30 with all your abilities for a while, then you go to level a new vessel--which is essentially a suped up version of yourself--but instead you are left with 0 goddamn abilities once again and now IT'S EVEN HARDER TO LEVEL! So you're stuck with nothing even longer. Is it too much to ask vessel grant your talents and the leveling is just to unlock what the new vessel gives--MORE STATS!?!

Pardon my ignorance about the subject but I am waiting for my Windows PC to arrive to download the game.  Anyway I thought that after a campaign was over you could take your leveled vessel (that is what is called right?) with you to another campaign without any penalty unless the new campaign was restricted to new vessels only.  If you move your vessel prior to the end of the campaign, then you are penalize.  I do not mind leveling each vessel once but having to level the same class and race again and again after each campaign sounds like work.

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@ ACE people: Are you interested in having testers in your test environment?  I'm done leveling via XP/gold.  Many others are as well.  In an environment where a wipe will happen at any time, this is simply not acceptable.  I hope you are hearing this. 

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2 hours ago, Grillo said:

Pardon my ignorance about the subject but I am waiting for my Windows PC to arrive to download the game.  Anyway I thought that after a campaign was over you could take your leveled vessel (that is what is called right?) with you to another campaign without any penalty unless the new campaign was restricted to new vessels only.  If you move your vessel prior to the end of the campaign, then you are penalize.  I do not mind leveling each vessel once but having to level the same class and race again and again after each campaign sounds like work.

He was talking about the difference between getting your first white vessel leveled, and then having to relevel everything when moving to a green/blue/purple/orange vessel.  When you get a colored vessel you start off at 0 xp and have no skills.

A vessel (any color) once leveled, will stay that level in perpetuity.  The problem is that a lot of classes (read most) don't have access to their core skills until level 15+.  So we are stuck grinding out opening up the skills over and over.


lUvvzPy.png

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Quote

"Dem playahs, dey need to L2P, freakin noobs."

Is what J to the D and Barry said in last weeks streamcast. All right, I may have paraphrased slightly, for succinctness, but I have 2, no 3.... some points:

Spoiler

My intention is to be constructively critical, I may miss that stretch goal. This post may contain nuts.

  1. I know the game is amazing in its complexity, but what the abilities do ain't. For people who have played a computer game before the process goes something like.. Spend talent points, load new ability, try it on dummy/piggy/wolf > Like it, keep it, Done. > Underwhelmed, remove from bar, regret, reroll, regrind Done. 
  2. In later levels the abilities are often modified either directly by " Thorns just got Thornier" type talents or indirectly by new achetype tree choices, e.g. buff Support power by tiny amounts spending 6 to 9 talent points, then blamo gain +650 by choosing 3rd tree. The choices we make later in the tree often make SOME of the choices we made earlier irrelevant/sub-optimal.
  3. The talents I choose ultimately, will need to support me/my team as I further the Throne war against other players, what I learn from Soloing or even Grouping cats/spiders often has little relevance to what I will be using the skills for end game. Perhaps if you can upgrade the mobs AI with long distance social aggro (calling some other cats to gang up on you in Cat channel), trying to run/teleport/stealth away at low health or even remembering to get in range before attacking (love the way Cats wave at you from 15m) or giving cats ballistas (a cat with a ballista? wait, can i play that race?). Alright joking about stretch AI goals aside, even if I do learn something by leveling slowly grinding dumb cats, what relevance does it have to either a Keep siege or a One on One encounter? Level to 30, turn up at keep/mind your own business, get smoked/ganked, regret, reroll, regrind.
  4. Whatever I have learned about my abilities and passives gained through leveling, Disciplines - BOOM I just 8 to 11 more. All right, somewhat staggered in the leveling process (currently)***, but again, probably making my previous learning's and choices less relevant. (In full launch) Aquire new Disc that gives you ability X, enhanced, for free, regret, reroll, regrind.
  5. On the other hand, if you have all 30 levels to play with (after you have learnt a significant amount about the crafting and gathering systems e.g. frames, (I certainly learnt a huge amount about crafting, gathering and skill training)) You are more likely to look ahead down the talent tree and make better choices, well, potentially, we are all idiots sometimes and the Discs discovery system will still change your mind after the fact. Regret, reroll, regrind.

I think it was Timmy Mallet who first said "If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem" ... or was it Bob Marley ? Anyway, you'll notice in the word cloud of the above points 2 are massive: Regret and ReRoll. Options.

  1. Disclaimer: On the first Sac'd level or every Sac'd level pop up says "I am a seasoned pro and know what I'm doing/I have watched so much YouTube my eyes are numb and will not cry or whine on the forums if I mess this up. I am not a robot." Yes/No Buttons.
  2. Regret pots: On creation each new toon gets X character/account bound respec potions that refund X, Y or Z amounts  of telant points to respend in light of you post leveling learnings.
  3. Sac-Back: OK, I made a mistake, turns out I am noob, or what I learned last week got changed, or I just unlocked an awesome Disc that has reworked my entire bar....i really should have tried this on Test first.... I can use a 'Dark Sac' pit to un-level and lose the offending talent points. Fiendish !
  4. Cry moar: Certain activities reward a free complete respec of all talent points across all toons. A whining forum post longer and more whiny than this one, no less than 17 emails whining to support email address, a total of no less than 160,00 repeats of the same /cry emote in front of the Sac Pit in your factions temple.
  5. Rage quit. A listen subroutine monitors the keyboard for the keystrokes that result from smashing fists or forehead into the keyboard and pop up a free respec option before the mouse is smashed against the wall.
  6. Patience, young padawan: I need to chill the fnark out and wait. While gold Sac's are still in game and campaigns get longer a trifling 14k for 30 levels of common vessel will be a mere afternoons takings from my trader/guildbank. I'll have to ask Anhrez what he thinks the effects of longer campaigns will mean to vessel price, but Ill conjecture that if you can afford an Epic vessel, than you can afford double that to level it ! /shows the #anhrez light.

 

TL:DR? In an attempt to look at the issues and possible solutions of leveling on dumb cats, more questions were raised than answered. L2Read!  

 

***Reference: 5.8.3 Leveling values and Discipline slot unlocks (from Test server 9/2/19:)

Level XP Disc Unlocks
1 0  
2 228  
3 255  
4 281 Exploration
5 309 Minor
6 335  
7 362 Minor
8 389 Minor
9 416 Exploration
10 442  
11 470  
12 496  
13 523  
14 550  
15 576  
16 604 Major
17 630 Major
18 657  
19 684  
20 711  
21 737  
22 765  
23 791  
24 818  
25 845  
26 871  
27 899  
28 925  
29 952  
30 979  
  14013  

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On 2/8/2019 at 3:36 PM, srathor said:

You should not forget how to play a class just because of the new vessel. In fact I would say once you build a white body of a class it gets saved that you mastered that class, and any new vessel of a class you mastered, would start at that "level". Saved account wide, so you never have to do that "starter" again. Any new levels with a new body and mastered class would just be refining what you already know. 

I would go a step farther. The key is choice:

architect.jpg?w=800&ssl=1

Each time you create a new vessel you are presented with 2 doors:

Through door #1 is a new player campaign that will allow you to level to 30, learn your abilities, and gear you in common advanced gear. Imports are zero and exports are limited to the gear on your back. PvE mobs of all levels are available in both safe spaces and designated PvP areas. Disciplines are readily available and can be changed out, and talents can be respec'd as you decide what you like and what works for you. Once you reach level 30, you have 2 days(?) to finalize your spec before you are kicked out. At any time you can choose door #2, but there's no going back.

Through door #2 is Level 30. No gear. No hand holding. You're on your own.

Once game design is complete, the NPE campaign can be transitioned into an NPE theme park as appropriate.

Edited by VaMei

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Can't you unlock a major discipline at lvl 5?  Only takes 10 points on the talent tree, for Druids anyway

9 hours ago, Raindog said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

My intention is to be constructively critical, I may miss that stretch goal. This post may contain nuts.

 

 

***Reference: 5.8.3 Leveling values and Discipline slot unlocks (from Test server 9/2/19:)

 

 

Level XP Disc Unlocks
1 0  
2 228  
3 255  
4 281 Exploration
5 309 Minor
6 335  
7 362 Minor
8 389 Minor
9 416 Exploration
10 442  
11 470  
12 496  
13 523  
14 550  
15 576  
16 604 Major
17 630 Major
18 657  
19 684  
20 711  
21 737  
22 765  
23 791  
24 818  
25 845  
26 871  
27 899  
28 925  
29 952  
30 979  
  14013  

 

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I'm hopping in late to the thread, and admittedly didn't read ALL of it, so if I reiterate thoughts that have already been posted, I apologize.  

Leveling isn't really a big deal at all.  Sacrificing aside, it doesn't take long at all to level to 30.  We aren't talking days, we are talking hours, if the higher tier mob camps are available and not being harassed by the other factions.  I've already seen the community at work at these camps.  People constantly rotating in and out of the leveling group(s) and max level characters hanging around to protect the camps from gankers (not always effective, but its the thought that counts).  The game doesn't feel like it's meant to be solo'ed, but its not impossible.  

Some improvements could be adding more higher level mob camps, giving exp for more than just killing mobs (harvesting, crafting, etc).  However, hitting max level on a new, common vessel is pretty trivial at this point.     

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16 hours ago, Corpran said:

Can't you unlock a major discipline at lvl 5?  Only takes 10 points on the talent tree, for Druids anyway

 

Test server (most recent version) is changed.

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41 minutes ago, firstworldpotato said:

it doesn't take long at all to level to 30.  We aren't talking days, we are talking hours

However, hitting max level on a new, common vessel is pretty trivial at this point.     

Do you have an estimate?

Even if it isn't days, it's still a matter of what's the point? Why are we spending hours (a lot for higher vessels) to mindlessly grind just because?

Seems for every time someone has called this a "PVP Game," the devs have thought up ways to make players spend more time doing PVE. Maybe if we start promoting it as a PVE game they will change it?

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11 minutes ago, APE said:

Do you have an estimate?

Even if it isn't days, it's still a matter of what's the point? Why are we spending hours (a lot for higher vessels) to mindlessly grind just because?

Seems for every time someone has called this a "PVP Game," the devs have thought up ways to make players spend more time doing PVE. Maybe if we start promoting it as a PVE game they will change it?

There are variables there, but uninterrupted leveling at R10 mobs with a group is what, 2-3 hours on a common vessel?  You want a game that has NO PVE at all?  I think that's unrealistic for an MMO like this.  Leveling is PVE, harvesting is PVE, crafting is PVE, managing EKs is PVE.   Are you looking for a game that pops you out at max level with all the gear you need to dominate PVP?  Well, you can to some extent through sacrificing gold, but taking out the grind to get you to that point would water down the game.  There just has to be more than PVP to make this game successful.  

The game seems like its RvR/PvP centric, it doesn't mean there is absolutely no PVE.  The good thing about this game is you can't do anything in game in a campaign that protects you from PvP.  

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On 2/9/2019 at 7:02 AM, Devonic said:

The benefit of staring with 1 attack and gaining abilities as you level is you get to learn the abilities.   I found when you got all the abilities at once, I had a hard time remembering what each power did.   But them my memory is shot. 

Which is fine the 1st time, but beyond that, there is no point.

Even Overwatch, MOBAs, and BR have more faith in their player base that they give them a handful of powers all at once. Most provide some sort of tutorial though and walk players through the basics of combat and class design.

Crowfall powers and classes aren't exactly drowning in complexity. With 8-15 or whatever the average number, it isn't crazy to learn relatively quickly. 95% of the time a Crowfall power is likely going to do DPS of some sort anyway...

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