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kajidourden

Leveling

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21 minutes ago, APE said:

Even Overwatch, MOBAs, and BR have more faith in their player base that they give them a handful of powers all at once. Most provide some sort of tutorial though and walk players through the basics of combat and class design.

But Crowfall is more of an MMO RPG than it is an FPS, MOBA, or BR.  If we are going to compare games, lets compare them as much like for like as we can.  Crowfall and Overwatch/BRs are opposite ends of the spectrum.  As far as MOBAs go, I've played more than my fair share of DOTA 1 and 2, LoL, and a few others.  Most of them don't give you all of your skills right out of the gate, but they are meant to be played in rounds that last around or less than an hour.  

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32 minutes ago, firstworldpotato said:

There are variables there, but uninterrupted leveling at R10 mobs with a group is what, 2-3 hours on a common vessel?  You want a game that has NO PVE at all?  I think that's unrealistic for an MMO like this.  Leveling is PVE, harvesting is PVE, crafting is PVE, managing EKs is PVE.   Are you looking for a game that pops you out at max level with all the gear you need to dominate PVP?  Well, you can to some extent through sacrificing gold, but taking out the grind to get you to that point would water down the game.  There just has to be more than PVP to make this game successful.  

The game seems like its RvR/PvP centric, it doesn't mean there is absolutely no PVE.  The good thing about this game is you can't do anything in game in a campaign that protects you from PvP.  

What's the difference between starting with full talent/stat points to spend vs grinding out 30 levels in 2-3 hours or considerably more with higher quality vessels?

What entertainment value does the mob grind provide that will make this game successful?

Those that actually enjoy mindlessly grinding mobs can do so for much needed resources.

They initially sold/hyped this game to have mobs that were environmental danger and for resources. Believe the FAQ still states that they aren't doing "Kill mob = Exp = LvL." (oops)

The mindless grind for levels is a bolted on system that is independent of the rest of PVE and the game.

Problem is, if you remove whatever hours it takes to grind out levels, what do players do? Currently the game loop and lacking features make for a meh experience. So they add the wonderful carrot on the stick of every other MMO and now we have to go out and grind just for the time sink aspect.

There's also a divide between new/less successful and those that have been around and doing well.

New players will be competing for ideal mob camps from friendlies looking for resources and avoiding being ganked by enemies. Along with being under geared, lacking skills on their bar, disciplines, and just being new.

If leveling was done in a safe area as a tutorial, whatever, but it isn't currently. Makes for a poor new player experience.

Vets have an easier time obviously so there hopefully once the initial grind/pain is over it gets better, but how many non-die hard fans will get that far?

I'm fine with there being a cost for higher quality vessels, but the initial one should either come maxed out or be leveled relatively quickly in an environment conducive with learning.

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8 minutes ago, firstworldpotato said:

But Crowfall is more of an MMO RPG than it is an FPS, MOBA, or BR.  If we are going to compare games, lets compare them as much like for like as we can.  Crowfall and Overwatch/BRs are opposite ends of the spectrum.  As far as MOBAs go, I've played more than my fair share of DOTA 1 and 2, LoL, and a few others.  Most of them don't give you all of your skills right out of the gate, but they are meant to be played in rounds that last around or less than an hour.  

Here the problem as I see with leveling in CF.

1.  You start with a basic white tier vessel.  As you level it you unlock stats and talent points which you then use to unlock your basic abilities, discipline access and class defining stats and passives.  This is the vessel you go out into the world for the first time in.  It's the vessel you first harvest, explore and PvP in.  You farm ass your mats (or buy them) and get a green vessel made.  It's a lot of work: it takes minerals from stone motherloads and a dedicated foreman (designed to be farmed in a group of 3 min), a gravedigger to get the body parts you want, an alchemist and a necromancer to make your upgraded body.  It wont take long to level the basic vessel, if you do it with a group it won't take but a few hours at most.

2.  You equip your vessel and lose all progress you made towards your white vessel.  You lose all the of abilities you had, every discipline you had, all the stat points you already spent and every defining characteristic of your class that you have already unlocked.   You do get more base stats though so there is a eventually net gain after you leveled it all again (at a higher rate since its a green vessel and it takes more xp).  You go out and farm all the mats for your blue vessel.  It doesn't take too long, maybe a weekend of stockpiling or farming r10's. 

3.  You equip your vessel and lose all progress you made towards your green vessel.  You lose all the of abilities you had, every discipline you had, all the stat points you already spent and every defining characteristic of your class that you have already unlocked.   You do get more base stats though so there is a eventually net gain after you leveled it all again (at a higher rate since its a green vessel and it takes more xp).  You go out and farm all the mats for your purple vessel.  It's a pain in the ass to level. 

4.  Repeat for legendary.  Good luck. 

 

Why is upgrading your character causing you to lose the basic abilities of your class that you have unlocked multiple times. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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33 minutes ago, firstworldpotato said:

But Crowfall is more of an MMO RPG than it is an FPS, MOBA, or BR.  If we are going to compare games, lets compare them as much like for like as we can.  Crowfall and Overwatch/BRs are opposite ends of the spectrum.  As far as MOBAs go, I've played more than my fair share of DOTA 1 and 2, LoL, and a few others.  Most of them don't give you all of your skills right out of the gate, but they are meant to be played in rounds that last around or less than an hour.  

Clearly they are different types of games, but even within the MMORPG genre, older/traditional MMOs overloaded players with abilities and seem to have done fine. Games have tried to streamline it more over the years (GW2, newer WoW), but still, I don't believe we need our hands held this much. Especially in a game like Crowfall that at least on the surface seems to be geared towards a more mature/experienced community. We can handle more than 1 power to start with. If we can't, how will players handle the politics and larger scale strategy?

Overwatch you start with everything and even MOBAs that unlock over a match, it is still done within a match. Some of these games also have tutorials, AI only mode, or whatever systems to actually teach and let players learn how to play at their pace.

How can ACE believe we can only handle 1 skill to start, yet after a few minutes should be fine trekking down to gank central to level?

BR in comparison should be overwhelming to players with the amount of stuff available. But with APEX reaching 25 million in a week, seems some can figure it out. This is a BR with actually classes and a bit more depth then pick up a gun and shoot. Fortnite of course continues to expand with whatever crazy features, but they managed to tack on harvesting/building into a genre usually just about the Pew Pew and it too is doing amazing. Players want to have a good time, quickly. Even dying quickly is fun in comparison to the mindless grind that MMOs seem to embrace as the greatest thing ever.

Guess from what they initially hyped Crowfall to be or rather NOT be and what we have now, I'm not thrilled. Sure I can go play any number of lobby game for an instant gratification experience, but I can also go play countless MMOs that do so much more well. GW2 for example has great PVE, sPVP for quick matches without the PVE, and WvWvW for the more larger scale.

I'd hoped Crowfall would take good qualities from both MMO and Lobby games, but seems to be going for the less fun stuff more so.

Edited by APE

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34 minutes ago, firstworldpotato said:

There are variables there, but uninterrupted leveling at R10 mobs with a group is what, 2-3 hours on a common vessel? 

How long does it take when the only R10s are not available to your faction? Or the only R10 spawn is highly contested by the other factions? Or when you don't have a group of leveled and geared players to carry you? Remember we're talking about a new player here, not a member of a large well organized guild.

As I've said elsewhere, forcing a new player to level their characters using locations and resources that factions and guilds are supposed to be fighting wars over will not end well for the new player.

The predictable high level spawns are the spider canyons (where we get minerals, durable hide, and keep/fort materials), the zombie canyons (where we get gems, farm gold, and keep/fort materials), and the lumber mill (where we get flexible hide, farm gold, and keep/fort materials). If there's a good spawn of Auroch or Wolves, we will be on that for the soft and strong hide. If the best place to get what we want is in another faction's territory, we bring an extra group or two as security, and we kill anyone we see without asking what level they are.

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If ACE is determined to keep the leveling system as the mechanic for talent acquisition then ALL professions should have equal opportunity to grant that experience, period.   Gating crafting or harvesting behind mobs alone only serves combat spec vessels and one harvesting profession, Skinning.   Removing low skill components from significant gain makes sense but in reality the only items that now have significant xp as sacrifice are too valuable to do so.   Completed epic items have sacrifice values of 10k or more...  the player economy deems this item worth far more in a working market..   either way it will not be sacrificed until its durability is down to the last sliver and that is not likely to be the creator of the item.    With items like this having more than a level of xp value it also calls for the leveling system to give rollover xp to the next level as every other xp bar system does.

What we need is for the crafter of items to receive the sacrifice value AT CREATION and the end use owner to get the xp AGAIN at the end of it's useful life by scarifice.   Let crafters get the xp for making things that matter, not making things that have no use...   if the players don't value an item, why would the Gods?   This way there is no cheap way to sac levels from crafting them but there is a way for crafters to level vessels...  by crafting good gear.

Harvesters should receive xp by harvesting in the same theme, since many items pop, just give 10 xp per white material, 20 per green, 30 per blue, 40 per purple, 50 per gold...   a good pop might be 500 xp…  this way it scales with skill just as combat and crafting do.  Groups would need the system to split the xp between the group members just like mob kills do.   The system considers node destruction as combat, let that combat give xp for "killing" the node...   early game solo harvest, low skill, 4 whites pop, 40 xp (far less than a level on white vessel), late game harvesting 8 whites, 2 blues and 4 purps drop for 300 xp (far less than a level on a purple vessel) and you get the xp even if you lose the harvest to a gank.

If we are to retain xp bars and levels but make it a short and sweet gate to PvP the levels have to come equally for each profession, including exploration skills not yet added.

Take the pain out of leveling if it has to stay.


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2 minutes ago, Frykka said:

If ACE is determined to keep the leveling system as the mechanic for talent acquisition then ALL professions should have equal opportunity to grant that experience, period.   Gating crafting or harvesting behind mobs alone only serves combat spec vessels and one harvesting profession, Skinning.   Removing low skill components from significant gain makes sense but in reality the only items that now have significant xp as sacrifice are too valuable to do so.   Completed epic items have sacrifice values of 10k or more...  the player economy deems this item worth far more in a working market..   either way it will not be sacrificed until its durability is down to the last sliver and that is not likely to be the creator of the item.    With items like this having more than a level of xp value it also calls for the leveling system to give rollover xp to the next level as every other xp bar system does.

What we need is for the crafter of items to receive the sacrifice value AT CREATION and the end use owner to get the xp AGAIN at the end of it's useful life by scarifice.   Let crafters get the xp for making things that matter, not making things that have no use...   if the players don't value an item, why would the Gods?   This way there is no cheap way to sac levels from crafting them but there is a way for crafters to level vessels...  by crafting good gear.

Harvesters should receive xp by harvesting in the same theme, since many items pop, just give 10 xp per white material, 20 per green, 30 per blue, 40 per purple, 50 per gold...   a good pop might be 500 xp…  this way it scales with skill just as combat and crafting do.  Groups would need the system to split the xp between the group members just like mob kills do.   The system considers node destruction as combat, let that combat give xp for "killing" the node...   early game solo harvest, low skill, 4 whites pop, 40 xp (far less than a level on white vessel), late game harvesting 8 whites, 2 blues and 4 purps drop for 300 xp (far less than a level on a purple vessel) and you get the xp even if you lose the harvest to a gank.

If we are to retain xp bars and levels but make it a short and sweet gate to PvP the levels have to come equally for each profession, including exploration skills not yet added.

Take the pain out of leveling if it has to stay.

That summarizes it best.  If they keep the leveling system (and I think they should) give more opportunity to gain XP outside of killing mobs.  

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On 2/12/2019 at 12:40 PM, firstworldpotato said:

But Crowfall is more of an MMO RPG than it is an FPS, MOBA, or BR.  

That is true, but the core mechanic is the same. Crowfall isn't about following a story. Crowfall also may have the capacity to support sit-around storytime lalaland roleplaying events, but it is a multiplayer combat game at its core.

A lot of people mistakenly thought that MMORPGs taught us that most players do not like PVP. MOBAs and Battle Royales have made it clear that is false. Gamers don't like lopsided PVP. They prefer everyone on the same footing. That is why MOBAs and BRs work and are successful PVP games. Everyone goes into battle at the same level, quickly has the skills or gear they need to be competitive, and they're fighting. 

This is why LOTRO, Guild Wars 2, and other MMOs have made PVP gear and even PVP level/characters different from the RPG characters. If a person is playing to PVP, telling them they need to lick rocks, slap spiders, and bake bread for hours or days to eventually do so - in PVP areas, of all things - is simply not a rewarding or engaging experience for most. At best, it simply is not what they are playing (or paying) to do with their free time. 

Crowfall may have harvesting and crafting, but that doesn't make it any less a PVP game. In that light, we can see that history has shown us that 1) players enjoy a level footing for PVP and 2) grinding PvE to be able to go PVP is something even modern MMOs are moving away from. 

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4 hours ago, BucDen said:

A lot of people mistakenly thought that MMORPGs taught us that most players do not like PVP. MOBAs and Battle Royales have made it clear that is false. Gamers don't like lopsided PVP. They prefer everyone on the same footing. That is why MOBAs and BRs work and are successful PVP games. Everyone goes into battle at the same level, quickly has the skills or gear they need to be competitive, and they're fighting. 

One truth I have learned in my life is that anytime someone lumps an entire group of people together and says they all want this, they're wrong. Not all gamers want the same thing from their game time. Not all gamers want the same thing from moment to moment. Many gamers do not like some game styles at all.

Sometimes I want to play a dungeon crawl, and I go play Diablo. Sometimes I want to play a MOBA, and I go play StarCraft. Sometimes I want to play a theme park MMO, and I go play WoW. (Yeah, Blizzard has earned a lot of my money) Usually, I want to play a sandbox MMO. A long time ago, that was SWG. Ever since that died, it was EvE.

When I play a sandbox MMO, I want the choices I make today to affect the standing of my team for the long view of the game. I've spent the last 2 months grinding my butt off getting mats to gear myself and my guild. When we go into battle against players that have not put in the work, it shows; and I think it should.

Edited by VaMei

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9 hours ago, BucDen said:

That is true, but the core mechanic is the same. Crowfall isn't about following a story. Crowfall also may have the capacity to support sit-around storytime lalaland roleplaying events, but it is a multiplayer combat game at its core.

A lot of people mistakenly thought that MMORPGs taught us that most players do not like PVP. MOBAs and Battle Royales have made it clear that is false. Gamers don't like lopsided PVP. They prefer everyone on the same footing. That is why MOBAs and BRs work and are successful PVP games. Everyone goes into battle at the same level, quickly has the skills or gear they need to be competitive, and they're fighting. 

 

I can understand your concerns but not your conclusion.    MOBAs and Battle Royales are certainly a HUGELY popular type of PvP game but they are drastically different from the Crowfall Throne War design.   

It may be true that many casual gamers don't like lopsided PvP and don't like a game that lets you work to build up an advantage, play politics, long term strategy,etc.  They enjoy something quick, exciting and with a mandatory "even footing".  But  I think the Crowfall audience is those people that may not like the flash in the pan, generally forgettable MOBA/BR combat.  They enjoy the challenges of a game that encourages a player to invest time and effort to build up their resources/advantage and leverage that in a battles spread out over a campaign that lasts weeks.

 

Edited by rutaq

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12 hours ago, BucDen said:

This is why LOTRO, Guild Wars 2, and other MMOs have made PVP gear and even PVP level/characters different from the RPG characters. If a person is playing to PVP, telling them they need to lick rocks, slap spiders, and bake bread for hours or days to eventually do so - in PVP areas, of all things - is simply not a rewarding or engaging experience for most. At best, it simply is not what they are playing (or paying) to do with their free time. 

 

And if people who wanted to play PvP mmos actually liked that sort of instant gratification system the pvp modes in those games would be wildly successful.

But they aren't.

The world Pvp in those games is on life support because the people they're designed to attract can get a better version of that experience by playing a game designed for it, namely a MOBA or BR. So they don't stick around. They go play a MOBA or a BR because they actually want to play an MOBA or a BR. If you wanted that experience I question why you're even here simply because that experience exists in so many other places.

That's why GW2 and LOTRO haven't seen significant updates to those modes in literally years. It literally isn't worth the money required to build the updates because they simply don't engage a large enough number of players.

Yet somehow EVE still has a massive following after over a decade despite being the grindiest game with the most downtime in existence simply because it didn't try to attract players that don't want what it offers, and in stead doubled down on systems that focus on its holistic and sim-like approach to PvP MMO design.

MOBAs are BRs are fun. They're also not MMORPGs. They don't revolve around long term group and personal economic or character progression. They don't revolve around reward for building an economic supply chain or creating and rewarding risk of time invested. They don't have ingame player economies, nor sense of ownership of the game world, nore roles that aren't directly focused upon combat. They're not designed to.

You're advocating for a hybrid of heavy time investment design and instant gratification that, despite being relentlessly copied and iterated on over and over, by many developers, with loads more capital investment than CrowFall, has failed to be financially or critically successful every single time.

We're playing a game that has much more in common with one that has actually withstood the test of time by not doing that, and made so much money its developers were able to use the extra profit to start and cancel four other games in the mean time.

From the perspective of a player, I want the game where the economy and grind matters because it adds stakes to the fights. From the perspective of a kickstarter backer I want the thing I kickstarted to be something that's going to be around a year after launch.

You have a right to your opinion, but what you're saying people want, and what people seem to actually want out of this genre based on their actions and play patterns don't line up.

I have no doubt you hold this opinion. I doubt that this opinion is as popular as you think it is based on that data.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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2 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

From the perspective of a player, I want the game where the economy and grind matters because it adds stakes to the fights. From the perspective of a kickstarter backer I want the thing I kickstarted to be something that's going to be around a year after launch.

I would be happy if the dev;s stayed true to their kickstarter aims. There are plenty of mmo;s that have leveling and pve grinding in order to pvp.

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15 hours ago, rutaq said:


It may be true that many casual gamers don't like lopsided PvP

and don't like a game that lets you work to build up an advantage, play politics, long term strategy,etc.  

 

The first part holds no water, because if it did you wouldn't have had to add the second part - something I neither brought up nor contested. 

A minor league team has no desire to play their whole season (which is what a campaign is) against an NFL team. Scrim, sure. Practice, yes. But there is no fun in having zero chance of success. If you know of a single pro player in ANY field of competition - real or virtual - that suggests otherwise, i would love to see examples or quotes. 

Now, to suggest that the Crowfall leveling system, something shoehorned in and never part of the original plan, is anything but filler and grind is also absurd. If the proverbial "baking bread" was something 'real' PvPers enjoyed or wanted, it wouldn't have been the derisive end of the Shadowbane motto. 

So your reply was disingenuous at best. At worst, a poor rationalization for an odd desire for grind as a deciding factor in a battle arena. 

 

Edited by BucDen

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12 hours ago, PopeUrban said:

Yet somehow EVE still has a massive following after over a decade despite being the grindiest game with the most downtime in existence simply because it didn't try to attract players that don't want what it offers, and in stead doubled down on systems that focus on its holistic and sim-like approach to PvP MMO design.

 

I'm glad you brought up EVE Online. That is an excellent example. 

  • In EVE Online, a new player fresh out of the box can hold their own as a tackler. 
  • In EVE Online, there is no grind to become viable in PVP. The only grind is money, and that to a certain extent is optional. 
  • In EVE Online, a person that wants to level up to be a gatherer/crafter can very easily mitigate the risk of PVP they face. While PVP *can* happen in high sec, it is extremely rare. In Crowfall , the capacity for leveling in the starter area (no high sec in CF) is extremely limited in safe areas. It's also semi-capped at about level 12-15, since only gold gives xp after a while. 
  • In EVE Online, the resources gathered in the relatively safe area are still needed and still necessary to build even the biggest and deadliest of ships, weapons, and modules. That means the any player of any level can be a viable cog in their team's war machine. In Crowfall.... you want my apples?
  • In EVE Online, you can completely skill up your non-PVP character without ever fighting a single player. You can also completely skill up your PVP character without ever fighting a mob or mining a rock.  
  • In EVE Online, storage and banks are designed so you that can have near unlimited resources and replacement items at your disposal. If I lose my PvE-fit  battleship and all its gear ratting in low sec, within minutes I can be right back out there making the same stupid mistake again if I want to. 

Yes, EVE Online has done very well and has an amazing following even 20 years later.  I am a big fan of EVE Online, so I know the game well, especially the challenges of a new player getting started in it. Heck I literally wrote the book on getting started in the game. :) 

Whereas each of those areas is a plus for EVE Online, they are areas of detraction for Crowfall. All the things that made it accessible and viable for newer players are either absent from or in direct conflict with the gameplay of Crowfall. 

Edited by BucDen

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3 minutes ago, BucDen said:

It's also semi-capped at about level 12-15, since only gold gives xp after a while. 

Not true at all.  r7 mobs will take you to 20 and the r9-10 (can't recall which they are) cats will take you to 30.  You need more xp per level on better vessels, saccing is important but you can farm gold on the mobs ur farming xp on to to make it the most efficient. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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4 minutes ago, mandalore said:

Not true at all.  r7 mobs will take you to 20 and the r9-10 (can't recall which they are) cats will take you to 30.  You need more xp per level on better vessels, saccing is important but you can farm gold on the mobs ur farming xp on to to make it the most efficient. 

Since I was referring to High Sec, the snippet you quoted was in reference to the starter areas of CF. That said, you further make the point many have presented when you say one needs to have access to, and the ability to fight, r9-r10 mobs to do over 30% of their leveling. Thank you. 

I updated my post for clarity.

Edited by BucDen

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Just now, BucDen said:

Since I was referring to High Sec, the snippet you quoted was in reference to the starter areas of CF. That said, you further make the point many have presented when you say one needs to have access to a nd the ability to fight r9-r1o mobs to do over 30% of their leveling. Thank you. 

The safe zone starting area ends at 5 for mob xp IIRC.


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Re: EVE "only grinding currency"

 

There is no functional difference between grinding xp and grinding currency. Especially in the talent system. Currencies earned and spent to increase effectiveness or efficiency.

EVE is notable for placing a hard time limit on what you can do in a way Crowfall does not.

EVE is also designed to be slightly more hybridized in favor of PvP as a primary activity than Crowfall is.

I think that's a plus in Crowfall's favor. By forcing players to step out of the safe zone pretty much immediately you're also forcing players to interact with enemies, seek allies, and begin thinking in terms of group politics immediately.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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3 minutes ago, PopeUrban said:

Re: EVE "only grinding currency"

 

There is no functional difference between grinding xp and grinding currency. Especially in the talent system. Currencies earned and spent to increase effectiveness or efficiency.

The functional difference is that it is an absolute fact that a week into the game, with zero grinding, a player can be an asset to the team in PVP in EVE Online. In Crowfall, after a week without grinding, how effective will you be in ANY PVP battle? 

EVE is notable for placing a hard time limit on what you can do in a way Crowfall does not. 

Correct. It limits certain things you have access to. It does not limit your ability to participate in combat, and it does not build obsolescence into your gathered resources. No one needs a titan or a doomsday weapon to engage in EVE Online's PVP. You can do that in a frigate, cruiser, battleship... anything. How useful is a L15 against L30s in Crowfall PVP? 

EVE is also designed to be slightly more hybridized in favor of PvP as a primary activity than Crowfall is.

Not sure what that sentence is telling me, but it's early and I haven;t had my coffee. Will try again later. :) 

I think that's a plus in Crowfall's favor. By forcing players to step out of the safe zone pretty much immediately you're also forcing players to interact with enemies, seek allies, and begin thinking in terms of group politics immediately.

Definitely a plus... if they have a fighting chance. If they don't then it's little more than a source of frustration.  "Forcing players to..." is great preparation for real-life 'trial by fire' hardships and challenges. In a subscription-based entertainment medium, not so much. 

 

 

 

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