Rhana

My grievances with 5.8

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I'm rarely writing forum posts about things I don't like in game. But this patch there are so many that I feel I have to say a few of them.

First of all, the levelling and talent trees. I enjoy playing different classes/roles in games and therefore like that we don't have the racial and class training any more which in theory gives us more freedom which classes we can play. But really it's just in theory because in reality, who has the time and patience to level them all up? Even worse, how can a beginner know which class/promo-class he should play with which discs? He has no way or trying out different things without having to put hours of work into levelling a vessel and then might end up not liking the class or not finding it sutable for his playstyle. Even with doing a proper research before and asking other players, it's nothing compared to personal experience. The game is already grindy enough in terms of crafting and harvesting. I don't really see why also to include levelling into this. And I know it's possible to level a basic vessel quite fast but still, I do not want to spend days with just levelling vessels until I find the right class/discipline combination. No matter which way you do it, it's very dull. And we should not forget, we also will have to buy/make the gear for the class we chose to try out. Not everyone had access to TEST long enough to try out everything they would like to and in the future new players will come into the game without ever having the chance to test.

Once we make a better version of ourselves by crafting a vessel (or buying one), it's levelling all over again to just be able to play the thing. I liked it a lot more when levelling was a choice and not a must to be able to play the class. Starting with absolutely no skills is really dull and unneccesary, not to mention very repetitive. Crowfall was supposed to be not as dull as games where you level up by doing stupid quests like: "kill 20 spiders" or "help the farmer milk his cows" and other such crap. But seriously I'd take that a hundred times over the levelling we have now. In my opinion, gathering mats and then crafting a vessel should already be enough work. There is no need to also add a mandatory levelling process.

If Crowfall really is going to stick to this talent levelling, I suggest to at least create a place (outside the campaigns) where we can pick up level 30 vessels with all skillpoints unspent so we can test to our hearts desire. So once we do go into the campaign, we know exactly what we want. Of course those vessels would have to remain to outside the campaigns in a designated EK or something. Call it training ground. Oh and bring the practice dummies back!

Second grievance my characters all having a seperate inventory is an organisational nightmare. I need a toon or a friend I trust every time I want to move something from one char to another. Spirit bank is not an option with the amount of things most people gather. I do not like it at all and see no reason for it. Maybe someone does. If so, please enlighten me.

Third grievance I have with 5.8 is the crafting. There was a lot people disliked about the crafting in previous patches and I think most irritating was for everyone the randomness. Even with a fully trained blacksmith on a  vessel as good as we could make them with jewellry and crafting gear on, it was possible to fail the rolls on a metal bar. I think everyone disliked the fact that no matter if your skills were higher than the difficulty, you could put in a bunch of coloured ressources and get total crap in the end. Especially frustrating for things like chestpieces and two hand weapons that cost a lot of mats. The crafting process per se wasn't bad. I think it just needed a bit of tweaking.  There was a lot of joy and disappointment and overall it was kind of exiting. As it is now it feels flat and dull with no spark to it.  The results are more or less all the same (if you reroll the final roll). Rolling one point after another is dull to watch (I think no one does that, they just click the next button). I miss having the thrill of seeing a good roll. Setting the risk... well I find it very.. meh. The crafting is just mindless clicking now with just a lot higher dust costs. I'd take the old system back over the new one anytime even if it means I will have to live with the frustration of failing common metal bars and other things occasionally. The worst of it all are still the crafts that need so many components that it could put me to sleep while doing it (chain and plate armor layers for chestpieces!) I also don't like the crafting discs. When at some point we are so skilled that we can have 2 crafts maxed and combat maxed too, I still can only play one on the same char or I'd have no combat discs at all.

Fourth grievance are the maps. Making new maps is good and cool if you feel the old ones weren't what you wanted. But not giving us the ability to map the zones yet is really bad. There are many zones and no way of finding anything on the map itself like it used to be. For testing this is really terrible since we spend way too much time finding ressources or mapping them on our won (kind of pointless seeing how fast the campaigns end and we get new maps). Also the decision to lower the ranks of the nodes in the current campaign comes at the wrong time - one week too late. Now that we finally have a bit skills do do higher rank nodes, in the PoI's we can only find rank 4-6 and low rank mobs so also less gold to farm.

All in all this doesn't encourage me to play as much in this test as I planned to. I feel like I'm workign my ass off for very little fun (crafting dull, levelling dull, gathering a pain because nodes hard to find etc). The actual combat is still fun but with all the other things to do plus capping outposts, I rarely get to fight.

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2nd - You can use a box in the world to transfer stuff if u realy wanted too, not to mention if your smart about it imports and exports arnt realy an issue since exporting full stacks instead of bit and pieces at a time, thats 15,000 Resources you could be doing generaly speaking. in 5.7 spirit bank was account based (If i remember correctly) its now character based which means you have alot more

3rd - with the reroll system its almost impossible to get crap if you use dust its actualy much more reliable to get great quality items with the new experimenting system where you can literaly doing are you insane at max level and get almost all amazing success would probaly make it better than a blue items tbh :P

4th maps are randomly generated u can get screwed like order did this campaign since there mobs spots are poorly made socks but now order farms in the spider pits in balance area instead which is great cause more PvP to be had now since there 7 good leveling spots instead of 9. As for mapping it out you can do it the old fashion way i already got my wood and iron runs aswell as my mineral runs down.

I go into a new campaign taking notes of every good spot to gather i find like clusters of nodes high rank nodes (usualy around the ravines) i also check the oponents key locations too cause if they have it better im farming there instead.

playing the same map over and over gets boring realy realy fast campaigns will be longer eventually so you have m,ore time to find ur gatherering runs

Edited by veeshan

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To your 2nd: Spirit banking is no option because in the future we won't be able to do it either. Using a box in the world to transfer my armor, wepons, food etc from one char to another... nope. If you want to take that risk when you are out alone in the wilderness, fine with me. But I'd also have to move both chars there. It's just silly. I'm not saying we don't have enough exports and imports. I'm saying I don't want to have to bring a friend or a toon (or use a box like you suggested) to transfer the contents of my inventory to my other char. Not to mention keeping track or what I have banked on which char. If you gather as many different things as I do, keeping track is a nightmare.

3rd: you might have misunderstood me. I didn't say it's hard to get good stuff. I said it's boring because all you make will be more or less decent. As you said it's more reliable. Sadly, that doesn't make it fun at all.

4th: I did it the old fashioned way and mapped 2 entire islands which took me a few hours. Trust me I'm not lazy when it comes to that. Then we got a new map. We have very short campaigns now so I sure as hell won't do it again until we get a longer campaign where we can be sure the map won't change again in 2 days.

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-The optional snap test server is a great place to quickly power level and test characters.

-Guild banking will help a ton with merging resources from multiple characters.  Can't wait for them to implement guild storage!

-I like the dust/ember re-roll mechanic over the old system.

-Pretty sure Ace needs to test the reshuffle map puzzle pieces tech to make sure things are working the way they intended, we are just going to need to deal while we are in these test cycles.  Hate the naming conventions of the Zones!

-Capture points are tedious and not very interesting atm. The current system feels like they are just wanting us to test as much capping back and forth as possible so they can get  data on the underlying tech and make sure it is functioning reliably.

 

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-The optional snap test server is a great place to quickly power level and test characters.

We will not have access to snap test in the future. I'm talking about new people that join the game after launch mostly. Also I think we do not have snap tests at the moment. Not everyone got a couple of weeks access to it anyway.

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-Ace could just allow access to weaker variations of all powers from the onset of character creation and via the talent system allow us to unlock the more powerful skill variant.  This would make the feel of the kit available for folks to test.  Not bad feedback, seen similar concerns from other players.

Edited by cyjax

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That's a good idea I could live with. After all, what I suggested (testing outside campaign) would be with weaker weapons anyway so your suggestion would work about the same way as mine.

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A home EK Account shared vault would sure be nice to have. The old crypt had a small chest in it that had that effect, not sure why that couldn't be extrapolated. 

I agree with you on leveling. At least in other mmo;s leveling required doing sometimes silly and stupid quests. Here we toss some gold or crap into a fire for every new vessel. Seems to me its nothing more then mindless activity to gain levels in order to unlock skills in order to play the game. If the developers think this is in any way content for achievers like PvE mmo's have quests and voiced npc and storylines while leveling, they are going to be sadly mistaken.

 

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You know I do not mind to level a vessel. At my own pace while I'm doing pvp or kill mobs and even some sacrificing. But as it is now we have to rush the levelling because otherwise we miss the skills that make the class playable.

I agree a shared vault would be nice. I wouldn't mind having to go back to the temple to transfer stuff.

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28 minutes ago, Rhana said:

You know I do not mind to level a vessel. At my own pace while I'm doing pvp or kill mobs and even some sacrificing. But as it is now we have to rush the levelling because otherwise we miss the skills that make the class playable.

I also didn't complain about levels when they gave modest increases of power per level. Now your basic class skills are gated behind levels and its not so modest a power increase. Effectively forcing you to pve level before you can pvp. Strange for a game with little to no PvE outside of crafting/resource gathering.

EDIT: I did complain about sacrificing 15,600 arrows being the most efficient way to level 10. :)

Edited by mystafyi

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5 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

I also didn't complain about levels when they gave modest increases of power per level. Now your basic class skills are gated behind levels and its not so modest a power increase. Effectively forcing you to pve level before you can pvp. Strange for a game with little to no PvE outside of crafting/resource gathering.

EDIT: I did complain about sacrificing 15,600 arrows being the most efficient way to level 10. :)

The problem with the previous system is that people didn't feel compelled to level. You could only level to a certain point by fighting mobs and after that you had to sacrifice stuff. That was because they want people to use the sacrifice system to take items and gold out of the game. That wasn't really happening though. Not enough, anyway. With the talent system, leveling is essential. Players can level the whole way by fighting mobs and never need to sacrifice anything, but not many people will do that. New players will mostly do some combination of those two things. Veteran players probably won't do that often. They will probably have enough money that they can just quickly level it up via sacrifice. Imagine you are playing on a green custom vessel and you get a purple one that is better. You work on getting your discs for it and when you're ready, you level it up in minutes and apply the discs. A lot of money is removed from the game and you barely miss a beat. Getting the discs for that new vessel will be more effort than actually leveling it.

The leveling/talent system also gives new players immediate goals to work toward, rather than sitting around wondering what they should be doing. It gives them some needed direction. That will be better for player retention. 

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9 minutes ago, Arkade said:

The leveling/talent system also gives new players immediate goals to work toward, rather than sitting around wondering what they should be doing. It gives them some needed direction. That will be better for player retention. 

I understand why they implemented it, my biggest issue is gating combat skills behind it. Doing this will not help player retention since this isn't a PvE game that has a storyline and leveled questing and pvp opt-in for lower levels(or no pvp in openworld)

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I actually think the leveling / active progression in CF fits perfectly. It's fairly fast and at the same time it kinda makes you feel like you "own" your character. Previously to this CF felt more like a battle arena, and that's not what CF is supposed to be. It also gets people out in the world doing different things that don't necessary revolve around sieges, which to me is a good thing. 

I do think there should be a respec mechanic for talents however. Maybe a cash shop item.

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4 hours ago, Rhana said:

The game is already grindy enough in terms of crafting and harvesting. I don't really see why also to include levelling into this.

You wont have to do those in the real game. Everyone has to do everything at the moment because the economy isnt set up yet.

I have some serious issues with feedback like this. You know, players who wont really gather or craft that come here to complain how the activty they dont really want to do is boring. C'mon, look at the crafting part, it seems to me you just hate crafting by default.

And this ends up skewing how they see things. Is leveling a issue because you have to gather, craft, AND level all at once?

Edited by BarriaKarl

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Gonna have to throw my 2 cents in here.

Leveling is a poor way to go about the progression. I got to agree, it's already annoying with having to do passive skill training. But having to go out and actually level, this isn't a typical MMORPG. That's why I stuck to Crowfall to AVOID leveling. It's grindy and not fun, and I don't feel like having to fight with people who will be on day one, just so I can slap some mobs around. PvE Content would  be nice, but this isn't what I had in mind when I played. Since it's now gating Disc behind leveling walls and some people will have more time to put into the game to get their leveling done. 

I also don't want to hear the poor argument, "It's a progression thing, you can do it in a day." No. It's a poorly implemented system that takes away from the unique nature of what Crowfall originally was when I first played. Like, last night there was a streamer crying about how Zybak was patrolling outside the leveling area he wanted to level in, granted the streamer was being a hooligan and his death was justified, but why add leveling on top of everything else we have to do to even get ready for a PvP skirmish. Personally, as a crafter (Necomancer Main) I want to be able to churn out my craft as quick as possible. It's how we're gonna make end's meet. 


I won't be personally PvPing, I enjoy the crafting aspect of the game, it's fun for me and normally I HATE crafting. 

Edited by RhapsodyDownpour

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I have some serious issues with feedback like this. You know, players who wont really gather or craft that come here to complain how the activty they dont really want to do is boring. C'mon, look at the crafting part, it seems to me you just hate crafting by default.

Ever heard of Cutting Edge Weapons and Armor? That's me. I gathered and crafted enough coloured gear just in the last patch to outfit 2 entire Guilds. At the end I gave away free stuff because I had too much.

I like to gather, craft and pvp. I just don't want to do any of those 3 things for hours nonstop. I have no trouble with grinding and gathering. And I really like to craft as long as it doesn't take up hours or is boring - which it is now.

Edited by Rhana

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6 hours ago, mystafyi said:

I also didn't complain about levels when they gave modest increases of power per level. Now your basic class skills are gated behind levels and its not so modest a power increase. Effectively forcing you to pve level before you can pvp. Strange for a game with little to no PvE outside of crafting/resource gathering.

EDIT: I did complain about sacrificing 15,600 arrows being the most efficient way to level 10. :)

The ol' we used to have to sac arrows, and walk 5 miles in deep snow to school story

 

 

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On 12/25/2018 at 6:40 PM, Frykka said:

The ol' we used to have to sac arrows, and walk 5 miles in deep snow to school story

 

 

 

One time I even had to kill my faithful Tauntaun and use his organs for warmth.  Those were the days!  

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On 12/25/2018 at 10:31 AM, cyjax said:

-Ace could just allow access to weaker variations of all powers from the onset of character creation and via the talent system allow us to unlock the more powerful skill variant.  This would make the feel of the kit available for folks to test.  Not bad feedback, seen similar concerns from other players.

Lots of powers have this  Range  to Range + Weapon % sort of formula.

Maybe ACE could add in a few more variables at this point.

Range to Range + (weapon %) + (Level *x %)  for example.

Then have the places those unlocks are, unlock the (Level * X %) portion.

 

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