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ZombieGandhi

Keep Infiltration: Working as Intended or Not?

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I've been playing a lot more heavily the last few days, and something I've noticed come up quite frequently in general chat, are people complaining about being ganked inside their keeps and forts, even though walls were up and no siege timer availability was active. It tends to devolve from there with name-calling, memes, and the lines of "If you want safety, go to your EK". Basically no real consensus seems to happen except for salt and hurt feelings--however justified they may or may not be. 

 

I'm an EVE bittervet, so I'm used to a bit of salt being sprinkled around. However, even in EVE's brutality, there's rule sets that apply to all. When you die, you more or less know why. I think some clarification here would not go amiss. If forts and keeps are supposed to be those minute bastions in the sea of sharks, and yet aren't, it leaves people confused. People can always mine more resources, but they can't get back that time. It's okay to lose that time, if one knows how the rule set is applied. What I'd be curious to see, is some clarification:

 

1.) Are Keeps and Forts, and their methods of entry, working as intended?

 

2.) If they aren't, is there some manner of resolution in the pipeline to see that they are?

A.) Few things drive a playerbase away faster, than a sense of rules not upheld or unevenly applied.

 

I couldn't think of a third. Simply to reiterate: Are the methods that some crafty few use to infiltrate keeps and forts working as intended, and if not, what recourse do other players have, than not to play/scurry off to their EKs?

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Well, let's look at a couple of the currently implemented mechanics:

1. When you get too near to a rune gate that leads to another faction's temple you get a debuff that inevitably kills you instantly. It's clear that area is supposed to be a safe place.
2. Duelists have an ability named Tunnel specifically implemented to allow them to bypass keep walls. It currently functions as a teleport, like the Wood Elf dodge, which was just a quick way to implement it and will (supposedly) change, but its intended purpose and function won't.
3. Duelists and Fae were purposely given a Double Jump mechanic, which the latter is using to infiltrate keeps.

With all that in mind I can only say that I expect this kind of harassment will become a staple of campaign warfare. Some methods of infiltration may be curbed (some classes using their 'ultimate' ability to teleport in) but I don't see ACE making keeps a guaranteed safe place, and that makes me happy.

Oh, and I didn't play Shadowbane but from what I've gleamed from the vets 'round here (in their many, many reminiscing posts) is that player-made cities weren't safe places. I'd expect the same out of this spiritual successor.

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11 minutes ago, moneda said:

Well, let's look at a couple of the currently implemented mechanics:

1. When you get too near to a rune gate that leads to another faction's temple you get a debuff that inevitably kills you instantly. It's clear that area is supposed to be a safe place.
2. Duelists have an ability named Tunnel specifically implemented to allow them to bypass keep walls. It currently functions as a teleport, like the Wood Elf dodge, which was just a quick way to implement it and will (supposedly) change, but its intended purpose and function won't.
3. Duelists and Fae were purposely given a Double Jump mechanic, which the latter is using to infiltrate keeps.

With all that in mind I can only say that I expect this kind of harassment will become a staple of campaign warfare. Some methods of infiltration may be curbed (some classes using their 'ultimate' ability to teleport in) but I don't see ACE making keeps a guaranteed safe place, and that makes me happy.

Oh, and I didn't play Shadowbane but from what I've gleamed from the vets 'round here (in their many, many reminiscing posts) is that player-made cities weren't safe places. I'd expect the same out of this spiritual successor.

I'm not 100% sure it can be assumed the intent was to be for keep bypass, or was rather intended as a tool box item for bypassing the wooden fort walls.

Right now there is essentially zero functional difference between a wood and stone wall, which I don't think should be the case.

My understanding of shadowbane was there was a couple more mechanics in play, and different periods of vulnerability, so that "sometimes" the towns were invulnerable, and other times not, but I could be wrong.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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A discussion that has come up many times.  Whats the point of walls if they don't keep anyone out?!? (Often after a noob has lost a bunch of loot).

ACE in past has confirmed the blink from WoodElf and Duelist intentionally allows teleporting through objects.  Don't think double jump or fae glide was ever addressed directly in this context, but seems to be pretty obvious consequence of the mechanic.

ACE is pretty open to revisiting mechanics, but this one is definitely something they've known about before.  Who knows where the game will end up and the answer may be different for 3 Faction vs Dregs.

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One of my favorite things to do in Shadowbane was fly over the walls (aracoix were the fae of yesteryear), stealth tailgate into the bank building behind the bank alt when the walls and guards were due, wait for them to turn away from the banker signifying they were loaded, and kill them for profit...

You had to do your research to be successful at this; knowing who was responsible for paying the walls/guards, what their alts were, what times they played, what times were least populated, flee routes, etc... One didn't simply walk into an enemy city and kill someone, there was challenge and skill to it.

So my only caveat to killing people in a keep is that it should be a challenge. If the enemy is just bopping in, avoiding the guards, shanking someone, and strolling out - that needs to be fixed.

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5 minutes ago, Angelmar said:

A discussion that has come up many times.  Whats the point of walls if they don't keep anyone out?!? (Often after a noob has lost a bunch of loot).

ACE in past has confirmed the blink from WoodElf and Duelist intentionally allows teleporting through objects.  Don't think double jump or fae glide was ever addressed directly in this context, but seems to be pretty obvious consequence of the mechanic.

ACE is pretty open to revisiting mechanics, but this one is definitely something they've known about before.  Who knows where the game will end up and the answer may be different for 3 Faction vs Dregs.

It should also be noted, the guard AI is pretty crap, and they only have the one trick (pierce arrows). It's not just the wall bypass that is allowing these things to happen.  Giving the guards the mole hunter discipline which they fire periodically, or a defensive druid AI that drops healing orbs while the fort is under attack, would probably go quite a ways towards keeping things a bit more stable.

They obviously want some of that sort of protection, because those guards can spot stealth if it's close enough, and fire until the target is out of range.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Personally, I think any location out of the beachhead should be dangerous.... But I understand it's likely that this game will be funded by the mass audiences from WoW giving it a try in 3faction....

If 3 faction folks need to be coddled and because they can't manage risk and protect their own crafters, so be it.  Buff the guards to keep that NPE good and the WoW casual money flowing to ACE.

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I would not mind some crafty way around the problem.  For example we have campfires. I could for example see a new campfire type, a "watch fire" that you can craft and place to give an area a 15 minute anti stealth radius like the mole hunter ability does.

So if you take the time, spend the resources, and put in the effort, you can make an area more safe and difficult to infiltrate, but not arbitrarily "enemies can't come here at all" safe. 

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I'm not personally opposed to the danger the world presents. I think it's pretty cool if forts and keeps are meant in some way to be infiltrated by sneaky people. The problem seems to be either miscommunication, or a misunderstanding, as to the relative safety of said forts and keeps. If people are under the impression that they're safe, or are in an area that is designed to keep them safe (but isn't), then there's bound to be that frustrated confusion. I think clarification would do people well, so there's no confusion. I think if the rules of the world (what's safe, what isn't, to what degree, etc) are known, then people aren't as frustrated, as it's something they're now aware of. I think people accept getting crushed out in the open zone when they're chopping down trees or mining ore, as that's an anticipated and expected--it's when it's not expected (in this case, unaware, unknown, or unsure), where it causes such grief. 

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I can understand being able to pk inside a keep, but it should not allow for same faction looting within the keep itself.

I'm guessing the prevailing strategy is to run a stealth sustain pk (such as with insatiablesloth) however, logging in on an alt with the within the same faction in order to loot the kills I think needs to be dealt with. If the guards are not going to have enough damage to really kill intruders, I would at least think they would stop looting from happening, and that should not be circumvented, would make the process of infiltration kills more interactive if the pkers had to consider killing somebody within sight of a guard.

Edited by Xabara
structure

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1 hour ago, ZombieGandhi said:

I'm an EVE bittervet, so I'm used to a bit of salt being sprinkled around. However, even in EVE's brutality, there's rule sets that apply to all. 

 

This scenario in Crowfall is equivalent to hi-sec carebears thinking that hi-sec is safe because of CONCORD.

Unless you are new to Crowfall, you should know better.

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1 minute ago, DocToral said:

 

This scenario in Crowfall is equivalent to hi-sec carebears thinking that hi-sec is safe because of CONCORD.

Unless you are new to Crowfall, you should know better.

From what I'm seeing--and please note, there is A LOT that I'm NOT seeing--is something of a schism between those who have played Crowfall for a while, and those who have arrived in the 5.8. For those who have been playing a long time, a lot of this is old hat. To use the EVE Hi-sec comparison: they may think they're safe, but soon-than-later find out they're not--but the lesson is soon learned that people will suicide gank, or try to use deceptive methods, to kill/get you killed in Hi-sec. The rules are understood, and the player takes it or leaves it--but they're not confused about it.

 

Just from what I read in general and zone chat, it's that confusion (perhaps partly due to a pre-alpha state), that has people upset. The uncertainty as to whether or not what they're experiencing is meant to be experienced. Since they don't know, it's chalked up to: pre-alpha lack of polish, glitchers, and in general taking advantage of the game's system. For those who have played far longer, this may be an accepted and understood happening, and for them, it's just another day in Crowfall. 

 

I'm not suggesting there be safe zones (this does give EK's all the more viability) where everyone can just stand around and thumb their noses are the enemies outside, but clarification. Confusion creates frustration, and frustrated people don't have fun, and if they're not having fun, they're not playing, and so on yonder slippery slope goes. 

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The Eve hi-sec analogy falls apart on one point. You can suicide gank all you want, whether for profit or just tear farming, but Concord WILL destroy your ship. Anything that you do to survive a suicide gank is an exploit.

If CFs keeps are not supposed to be safe, so be it. Just make the point clear.

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31 minutes ago, VaMei said:

The Eve hi-sec analogy falls apart on one point. You can suicide gank all you want, whether for profit or just tear farming, but Concord WILL destroy your ship. Anything that you do to survive a suicide gank is an exploit.

If CFs keeps are not supposed to be safe, so be it. Just make the point clear.

No on ever said or posted that keeps are safe.  Noobs may be making an unwarranted assumption. ( Open to being contradicted... Let's see a link)

They only added the guards in the crafting area in 5.8.... and then only because Srathors long on going complaint/forum campaign to have them added.

The additional guards are fine, they prevent a stealther there from staying in stealth. They won't stop a group.  

If you hear guards start shooting.... You're being raided.

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Most of the complaints are coming from crafters playing the game sub-optimally.

The current optimal crafting path takes players out of the PvP environment and puts them into a risk-free EK.

This should be concerning to anyone who enjoys PvP and a clear indication of something that is broken in a game that should be revolving around PvP.

There's no point in actively defending crafters, because the easiest way to make sure they never get killed again while crafting is to tell them "lol go to an EK noob". Players in typical Crowfall fashion will be punished until they figure this out, at which point the faucet of noob tears will run dry and a source of conflict is lost to the detriment of PvPers who are constantly looking for content.

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4 minutes ago, Nerd said:

Most of the complaints are coming from crafters playing the game sub-optimally.

The current optimal crafting path takes players out of the PvP environment and puts them into a risk-free EK.

This should be concerning to anyone who enjoys PvP and a clear indication of something that is broken in a game that should be revolving around PvP.

There's no point in actively defending crafters, because the easiest way to make sure they never get killed again while crafting is to tell them "lol go to an EK noob". Players in typical Crowfall fashion will be punished until they figure this out, at which point the faucet of noob tears will run dry and a source of conflict is lost to the detriment of PvPers who are constantly looking for content.

If all you're doing is noobing up crafting white, yeah you can craft in an ek. 

If you've upgraded to color, you want the keeps +1 pip buff.

Also don't get to comfy with a zillion export/import.  Those will get cut off, re read JTCs update articles.  Folks hiding in EKs won't be able to do so.

The real issue with no import export is going to be lack of storage.

Edited by Angelmar

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Walls didn’t keep you 100% safe in shadowbane either.  They kept the masses out, most of the time, but every bird could fly, any thief could tele, any black mask could tele, wizards, furies; walls don’t mean you’re saftwyvis guaranteed just means it’s a little harder to get to you.  Scouts were a hard lesson in SB, I suspect it will be the same here too.  Tracking will help.  

Maybe you should be more careful with your assets.  Maybe you should have guards if you’re making them gear.  

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15 hours ago, Angelmar said:

If all you're doing is noobing up crafting white, yeah you can craft in an ek. 

If you've upgraded to color, you want the keeps +1 pip buff.

Also don't get to comfy with a zillion export/import.  Those will get cut off, re read JTCs update articles.  Folks hiding in EKs won't be able to do so.

The real issue with no import export is going to be lack of storage.

Literally just posted about this. We need Guild Banks ASAP.

I have no problem with 0 import/export, but management of resources will be insane.

Also would want 0 import/export to be month long. I am sick and tired of 4 day CWs

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