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Wrain

Mandatory changes that NEED TO BE ADDRESSED in this game.

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8 hours ago, Wrain said:

     Several months back, I posted a quick review of my thoughts on the direction of Crowfall.  I got ALOT of feedback both good and bad.  Surprisingly, most people seemed to actually AGREE with me on my post(s)/topic and so I thought I would do a second update.  

     As many of you know, alot of players/backers have either quit or have lost interest in this games direction.  Not surprising as alot of players purchased this with HIGH HOPES OF THE NEXT SHADOWBANE.  I fully respect and understand this is  not shadowbane 2, (or it would be called that) but marketing a game with some very very similar catch phrases and ideas can get you into hot water with gamers as its misleading.   (aka look at Shroud of the Avatar..(cough cough) UO fail anyone???)

Changes NEEDING rework/revamp.

1.  While you did take the time to "speed up" harvesting and make it more "mario-esque", The game and amount of work is still just WAY to farming/survival dependent.  If you want you actual core playerbase (and yes I do mean the Shadowbane/pvp diehards), stop catering and turning this into the next "zombie (fill in the blanks here) survial game 2016/2017/2018.  If I wanted to play RUST/Conan Exiles/and the whole rest of these fad games I would be.

2. The game is about COMBAT/THRONE RULE.  Once again, less time in these janky simple-safe talent trees/skills.  UO/Shadowbane/(ORIGINAL VANILLA WOW!!) all let us make massive screwed up toons that were just trash!  But we had FUN doing it!!!  It was about experimentation and LEARNING/individuality.  This hand holding playing "safe" is boring and insulting.  If I want to make a mino/dual-wield/busted-stealth/healer...then let me do it.  Ya he sucks, but you know what??? I'm UNIQUE!!!

3.  Some players...DO-NOT-WANT-TO-HARVEST-FARM. PERIOD. As in PERIOD.  Give us starter weapons and give us mob camps and let us do what we do best.  Again, WAY WAY to much time into this crafting/harvest scenario.  You are FORCING us to an extent to do it.  I have NO..NO desire along with my friends to smash trees and rocks.  We want WEAPONS/KILLING.

4.  The stances really really need to be looked into.  1 Key should cycle between ranged/melee.  To be honest, even making it possible to just not leave your combat stance to go BANG ON MORE TREES AND ROCKS (as that's what seems once again to be the focal point of this game so far) should be possible.  It's not smooth, its not fluid, and its unnecessary. 

There are 3 Major MMO's pouring out in 2019/2020 (besides this game).  The truth is one or two of these games will take the market of core pvpers.  I actually FEEL the devs are listening/correcting/responding to our concerns but i'm begging the team to really REALLY look into reddit posts/old forum comparison posts/etc and take a good long hard look at what "core" base you are aiming for.  (My girl walked in and stared at this game while I was playing..her response??? "It looks like a kid's game...") 

I want this game to flourish, but when friends quit because the game feels like a "farm simulator" there's a MAJOR issue.  Mark the maps on next update with "mob locations", prime harvest area's etc.  If you want players to "stick" and actually STAY in testing...give us what we signed up for...WAR.

 


3. you get a starter weapon u get a mob camp all in the starter area. Takes 30 minutes of harvesting to be able to make your advance armor and weapon and 15 or so for your mount. ofcourse you can always farm and buy resources there be more player selling resources when game comes out i would think.

 

 


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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5 hours ago, Wrain said:

No, there is a HUGE difference between farming mobs/npcs in a WELL CODED CHALLENGING combat game vs AN OBJECT THAT YOU JUST STAND THERE BEATING ON REPEATEDLY.  Does a tree somehow threaten your character?  Will it actually kill you? Or maybe those rocks you are pounding on and collecting pine-cones are going to attack as well?

I dunno bout you but the constant 3+ player roam group that comes through the good harvesting area keep me on my toes there more of a threat than hitting mobs in 95% of all other games.
Here a problem with PvE no matter how well coded mobs are predictable as poorly made socks you know exacty what there gonna do and when they do it. Take WoW for example apparently they have great PvE boss fights and things but i find them the most tedious poorly made socks in the world cause the game is telling you how to play every step of the way and im baffled absolutely baffled by people who get killed doing them (Appart from the your items arnt good enough yet for this fight enrage timer mobs) If you can follow basic instructions and follow instruction you can kill any of the mobs.
Even games like darksouls follows this when it comes to PvE however the window of doing the dance is much smaller than WoW so not as forgiving but when u know the pattern its easy mode.

PvP on the other hand or the element of anything can happen like being jumped while harvesting keeps the adrenaline going more so when you can no longer spirit bank everything when u get hit.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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4 hours ago, mandalore said:

Doesn’t atlas has horrible reviews?  SB got hikacked by its distributor and it had a failed launch in part because of UBIsoft, I’d hope he doesn’t repeat that with CF.  

It is still prealpha.  When I gave them money I expected 4-6 years; I know how long it takes to make a game.  CF isn’t a mass appeal MMO, it’s a niche game and I mean this from the bottom of my black decrepit heart: custard steam and custard fotm hogwash trends that lasso in gamers like the junkies we are.  I’ve played WoW off and on since 2003, I’ve played DAOC, Darkfall, GW, GW2, Albion, EVE and SB; Sb was by far my favorite.  It didn’t make the most money, it didn’t have the largest pop but it does have my favorite memories sitting in front a pc besides pornhub. 

30% positive reviews so yeah i say it does have pretty bad reviews atm, never played it myself though.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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@mandalore I remember those gold grinds that guilds holding towns would do  is how they would power level new recruits.

 

a Druid is headed out to AOE farm? Group with him and soak up xp. You wouldn’t get gold but you were power leveled to max level.

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Posted (edited)

While I have not played enough to make an informed comment on whether the game is to dependent on  gathering/crafting, I think removing the necessity to do waters down the game and results in another short run narrowly focused PvP centric game like Shadowbane.  At the end of the day, SB was a game that lost most of its players fairly early with a yet smaller group of diehards keeping the servers up.  Yes there were technical issues that killed a lot of the pop early, but other game mechanics issues ensured its demise.  Why would you want  that?  I'm in the over 35 group that played both UO and Shadowbane, but these days I am after something  more ....

EVE online still is getting about 24,000 online peak after 15 years.  Why?  This is a full loot diehard PvP game.  Yet, PvP centric players normally do not do any crafting and gathering at all.  Their ships are provided by their corps and alliances via the players doing the bulk of the logistics.  Clearly this system works!  What we want is lots and lots of players.  We want the PvP diehards but we want the logistics players as well.  There are ton of people out there that love logistics and a ton of people translates to more PvP targets. :)  

Right now most players are just running around experiencing aspects of the game.  The majority of players are essentially playing solo. So ya, right now the diehard PvP player is not being supported with logistics.  I get the OPS point, but this game seems to be designed to play more like  EVE, and in the long run and I think that is a very good thing.

I would be very cautious of any changes that overly simplify the games logistic aspects until we see how iit plays out in an actual campaign with more players and larger guilds. 

Edited by Cosian

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I feel I should bring this up. First and foremost the thing that made Shadowbane different and appealing wasn’t the promise of an open world gank fest.

 

The appeal was the ability of guilds (friends) to put an indelible mark on the game world, and if you had beef with another guild the ability to take it away (siege warfare). This was the true end game and as @mandalore pointed out required people that farmed gold off high level mobs because the cities and vendors required a constant flow of gold.

 

That being said Shadowbane was a victim of being to good at what it did, and with no reset mechanic created a scenario where after one guild had “crushed” its major competition it could rule with an iron fist and not have to worry about repercussions.

 

 It would be interesting thoughif they could implement ai raids on assets by the more humanoid type mobs planned. It would add an interesting game play aspect.

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So now that a few people have chimed in with the extensive farming shadowbane required to be a WAR simulator, why do you persist in claiming it was farming lite.  

 

It seems like you want a moba or pubg with its instant meaningless PvP and not an MMORPG. @Wrain


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Just because Shadowbane had a lot of farming doesn't necessarily mean that's the best thing for Crowfall.  As much as I liked Shadowbane it had it's share of flaws. Having to do tons of farming for everything means when you lose what you farmed for you quit. Crowfall needs to adopt a more easy come, easy go methodology to EVERYTHING from armor/weapons to city building and sieges that way when people lose it's not so devastating and they continue fighting. This would also help with the steep "hump" new players have to get over with the initial grind to get PVP viable.  

The best thing that happened to Shadowbane were the mines that provided a method of passive generation of resources/gold that were gained through PVP. Hopefully Crowfall's PoI's turn into this one day. The long touted crafting factories could help also but those are a more advanced mechanic that new players likely won't benefit from until the economy gets going and those factory runs of items are sold on vendors for cheap. 

That's the one thing that all of these survival games seem to get right is easy come, easy go. Hopefully we see a shift towards that methodology for Crowfall. 

 

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10 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Crowfall needs to adopt a more easy come, easy go methodology to EVERYTHING from armor/weapons to city building and sieges that way when people lose it's not so devastating and they continue fighting. This would also help with the steep "hump" new players have to get over with the initial grind to get PVP viable.  

 

11 minutes ago, blazzen said:

That's the one thing that all of these survival games seem to get right is easy come, easy go. Hopefully we see a shift towards that methodology for Crowfall. 

 

Seems to me the shift has been away from that path you describe. Vessel levels used to give a paltry increase in power. To the extent that some folks didn't bother leveling up a vessel past the 16k arrows to get to level 10. Combat skills were not gated by vessel levels. Both gear and vessels have power increases that new players simply cannot compete against without spending time grinding pve. While I understand and agree with the need for all players to be able to improve their 'characters', I must always look at things from a new player perspective. Perhaps if gear and vessel power differences were much smaller then currently It would alleviate some of my concerns.

The game already has offline time gated account skills that will put new players at a disadvantage, coupling that with current gear and vessel disparity is a bit too much for new players.(I am speaking of the differences between white, green, yellow, ect since new players will be pretty much in white) 

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51 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Just because Shadowbane had a lot of farming doesn't necessarily mean that's the best thing for Crowfall.  As much as I liked Shadowbane it had it's share of flaws. Having to do tons of farming for everything means when you lose what you farmed for you quit. Crowfall needs to adopt a more easy come, easy go methodology to EVERYTHING from armor/weapons to city building and sieges that way when people lose it's not so devastating and they continue fighting. This would also help with the steep "hump" new players have to get over with the initial grind to get PVP viable.  

The best thing that happened to Shadowbane were the mines that provided a method of passive generation of resources/gold that were gained through PVP. Hopefully Crowfall's PoI's turn into this one day. The long touted crafting factories could help also but those are a more advanced mechanic that new players likely won't benefit from until the economy gets going and those factory runs of items are sold on vendors for cheap. 

That's the one thing that all of these survival games seem to get right is easy come, easy go. Hopefully we see a shift towards that methodology for Crowfall. 

 

The only reason farming was brought up was because the OP thinks SB had little to none which is a straight up revisionist lie.

Theres a hard balance to easy come, easy go as it diminishes the value of dedicated hard work.  I’m not a fan of the amount of work it takes to sustain a fighting force but I get what the devs are pushing for and without that daily grind of farming there is no daily pvp in the open world.  The people harvesting make the world alive and it’s looks like the main type of unscripted pvp. 

 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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11 minutes ago, Marth said:

The game is a guild based game not single player. Trying to match a new persons gear to an established guild with a crafting system will not work. 

New players don't start the game in an established guild. They start alone and form relations in game. If those new players cannot compete at all due to the issues I mentioned they will never form those relationships and instead find a new game. I understand its a guild/group based game, but most new players will start out alone. I am asking that the disparity between gear and vessels be lowered to give those new players a chance to stay and form those relationships needed to join guilds and experience the throne wars part of this game.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, mandalore said:

The only reason farming was brought up was because the OP thinks SB had little to none which is a straight up revisionist lie.

Theres a hard balance to easy come, easy go as it diminishes the value of dedicated hard work.  I’m not a fan of the amount of work it takes to sustain a fighting force but I get what the devs are pushing for and without that daily grind of farming there is no daily pvp in the open world.  The people harvesting make the world alive and it’s looks like the main type of unscripted pvp. 

 

Easy come, easy go doesn't necessarily mean less people out in the world or less overall harvesting. 

I'd make it take only 1 metal ring for mail armor instead of 3 (which lowers the armor layers from 9 to 3) and I'd make it only 1 metal scale for the head/gloves/boots and the same for the corresponding leather/plate recipes. Cut the metal bar and plank recipes from 3/3/3 down to 2/2/2. This is the "easy come" part of things in that items cost less resources AND it simplifies the armor crafting recipes which are very time consuming and tedious. 

The "easy go" part is cutting durability. Right now white advanced durability on the chest and weapons is around 1000-1100. The boots/gloves/helm are a bit less which doesn't make much sense when you consider durability loss is at random which results in these off pieces breaking faster then the rest of your gear. I'd normalize all base durability on advanced armor and weapons to about 500. 

It'll be easier to get that armor but it'll be roughly equally faster to lose it. This would even make it possible to have equipped item loot on more harsh rulesets like the dregs without it being too terribly devastating like it would be right now. This also makes the "hump" for new players to get that initial set of advanced gear easier to overcome. 

Hard to comment on city building and sieges just yet as we won't know what that will take until the dregs comes online.  

Edited by blazzen

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12 minutes ago, mystafyi said:

New players don't start the game in an established guild. They start alone and form relations in game. If those new players cannot compete at all due to the issues I mentioned they will never form those relationships and instead find a new game. I understand its a guild/group based game, but most new players will start out alone. I am asking that the disparity between gear and vessels be lowered to give those new players a chance to stay and form those relationships needed to join guilds and experience the throne wars part of this game.

Then those people need to play on factions and have their hands held until they brave the actual game and find a guild.  Dregs are for guilds.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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2 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Easy come, easy go doesn't necessarily mean less people out in the world or less overall harvesting. 

I'd make it take only 1 metal ring for mail armor instead of 3 (which lowers the armor layers from 9 to 3) and I'd make it only 1 metal scale for the head/gloves/boots and the same for the corresponding leather/plate recipes. Cut the metal bar and plank recipes from 3/3/3 down to 2/2/2. This is the "easy come" part of things in that items cost less resources AND it simplifies the armor crafting recipes which are very time consuming and tedious. 

The "easy go" part is cutting durability. Right now white advanced durability on the chest and weapons is around 1000-1100. The boots/gloves/helm are a bit less which doesn't make much sense when you consider durability loss is at random which results in these off pieces breaking faster then the rest of your gear. I'd normalize all base durability on advanced armor and weapons to about 500. 

It'll be easier to get that armor but it'll be roughly equally faster to lose it. This would even make it possible to have equipped item loot on more harsh rulesets like the dregs without it being too terribly devastating like it would be right now. This also makes the "hump" for new players to get that initial set of advanced gear easier to overcome. 

Hard to comment on city building and sieges just yet as we won't know what that will take until the dregs comes online.  

Can get on board with easy come suggestions(for god's sake lower leather).

The easy go part I don't agree with. People's stuff is already breaking at a good enough speed, if you pvp regularly.

Doing both of the above just leaves us at the same point.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, blazzen said:

Easy come, easy go doesn't necessarily mean less people out in the world or less overall harvesting. 

I'd make it take only 1 metal ring for mail armor instead of 3 (which lowers the armor layers from 9 to 3) and I'd make it only 1 metal scale for the head/gloves/boots and the same for the corresponding leather/plate recipes. Cut the metal bar and plank recipes from 3/3/3 down to 2/2/2. This is the "easy come" part of things in that items cost less resources AND it simplifies the armor crafting recipes which are very time consuming and tedious. 

The "easy go" part is cutting durability. Right now white advanced durability on the chest and weapons is around 1000-1100. The boots/gloves/helm are a bit less which doesn't make much sense when you consider durability loss is at random which results in these off pieces breaking faster then the rest of your gear. I'd normalize all base durability on advanced armor and weapons to about 500. 

It'll be easier to get that armor but it'll be roughly equally faster to lose it. This would even make it possible to have equipped item loot on more harsh rulesets like the dregs without it being too terribly devastating like it would be right now. This also makes the "hump" for new players to get that initial set of advanced gear easier to overcome. 

Hard to comment on city building and sieges just yet as we won't know what that will take until the dregs comes online.  

I think cutting durability will only hurt people and making it too easy will chase away the crafters.  More ways to farm resources would be better than cutting the costs of them.  I’d prefer mines so guilds can farm resources through pvp to just cutting the resources.  I’d prefer some of it scaled back but it’s a scalpel job, not a hammer. 

 

You guys bitching about crafting have backed the wrong game.  Thomas Blair is all about crafting complexity and interdependence.  

PS I don’t think Blazzen is bitching, some of the others def are. 

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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The funny thing is that most of the farming in shadowbane was just mining low rank mobs that hit about as hard as a tree anyway.

Just pretend the rock is an r4 demon and your pick is a sword. Mining the rock is actually more engaging.


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Rub rock on face and say "Yes food is eaten now time for fight"

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Posted (edited)

I agree with the OP. This game should be a systematic PVP MMORPG right from the start. We should already start in a hostile environment of intense combat against other players and not that happy farm joke. Everyone knows that what made Crowfall win the most anticipated MMORPG titles was the PVP system.

Before in Crowfall you used a lobby to locate matches and carnage begins. Of course, that's not enough to create a mmorpg, but I think DEVs should perfect the Hunger Dome's queue system. It needs to be implemented with lobby, queue system and MM. PVP games from the beginning through a queue system, and players would get the reagents to craft in the cities using resources obtained from the PVP quick game maps. Ranking system that would be implemented PERSISTENTLY and players would have ranking medals visible to other players in the cities.

I'm testing Pagan right now and I guarantee that when it's released for PVP it's going to be a lot better than Crowfall with this outdated campaign focused on craft without PVP at first moment. I personally hate Wargaming's monetization system and so I'm posting this to warn the DEVs to get out of their comfort zone.

Albion Online is already paying the high price to add PVE grind in a primary PVP game and has already lost 90% of its original playerbase while trying to make a PVE grind and PVP only in later game even though it is being advertised as a persistent world PVP game.

 

Edited by hamon

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Chaos Gate brah


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Posted (edited)

Hamon hit the nail right on the head. :)  While I still "embrace" a fuller more robust "mmo" setting...If the focus is NOT pvp...then this "crafting world" needs to have risk.  Put the eternal kingdoms in LIVE environment and let sieges run amok.

Because right now...this crafting is more fleshed out than the combat...and that's just.not.right. :(

 

 

 

Edited by Wrain

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