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Wrain

Mandatory changes that NEED TO BE ADDRESSED in this game.

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8 hours ago, Cosian said:

EVE online still is getting about 24,000 online peak after 15 years.  Why?  This is a full loot diehard PvP game.  Yet, PvP centric players normally do not do any crafting and gathering at all.  Their ships are provided by their corps and alliances via the players doing the bulk of the logistics.  Clearly this system works!  What we want is lots and lots of players.  We want the PvP diehards but we want the logistics players as well.  There are ton of people out there that love logistics and a ton of people translates to more PvP targets. :)  

I would be careful using EVE as an analogy because end game players in nullsec are effectively so rich that subcap ship loss does not matter, and for the most part logistics is a gigantic pain in the ass and done optimally results in barely any risk. Wars are won and lost on player morale, people showing up (or not showing up) to fleets, and drama, the actual state of the battlefield is pretty much meaningless because you can gum up the works by changing timers to when you're asleep (don't we all love alarmclock ops?), make fights take 6+ hours, and alliances typically hold enough territory that they can do this to you for months. Also "blueballs" is a valid and well used technique. While being highly effective strategies for winning I don't think anyone actually has fun doing this.

The game is sustained not by its nullsec content, but by carebears in highsec as shown by the reluctance of the developer to make any tweaks to it and all of the economic data they release. The game has lasted a long time however and there are lessons you can take from that.

I think one of the key things to take from EVE, as you have mentioned and to enlighten those who have not played the game, is that if you had ore from mining you could sell it to the market, if you had good processing skills you could buy ore and process it for minerals, if you were a manufacturer you could buy minerals and turn them into items, if your items needed to be moved to a staging area you could hire someone to do so, and if you were looking for combat you could buy the items and use them. At any point in the chain you could decide "I don't want to do this" and put your unfinished goods on the market.

The highly robust and easily accessible marketplace allows for many different solo/small group play styles and gave you something productive to do that you enjoyed when your guild wasn't active at the time. The open marketplace connects everything and the game would not have survived this long without it.

Crowfall is missing this currently, but it's very early days and I would say the tools that are currently in place for this (the vendor thrall) are not being used to their fullest potential. As crafters and gatherers start going for green/blue materials the plain mats become easier to come across however it has to be easy for these players to put those mats up for sale, or make a profit turning it into equipment and selling it to noobs rather than trashing it or stashing it in your bank forever. This becomes a question of, is the current individual vendor thrall system going to be enough or do we need to have single marketplaces per location? How do we get more people participating in the player marketplace?

If you close the marketplace off and put it in the hands of big guilds, forums and discord channels, you make the market more difficult to access and choke it to death as we are seeing right now. It makes sense for high level equipment and vessels, but you shouldn't need to jump through all of these hoops to get easy access to whites and greens so you can compete at a basic level in PvP.

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43 minutes ago, Nerd said:

Crowfall is missing this currently, but it's very early days and I would say the tools that are currently in place for this (the vendor thrall) are not being used to their fullest potential. As crafters and gatherers start going for green/blue materials the plain mats become easier to come across however it has to be easy for these players to put those mats up for sale, or make a profit turning it into equipment and selling it to noobs rather than trashing it or stashing it in your bank forever. This becomes a question of, is the current individual vendor thrall system going to be enough or do we need to have single marketplaces per location? How do we get more people participating in the player marketplace?

If you close the marketplace off and put it in the hands of big guilds, forums and discord channels, you make the market more difficult to access and choke it to death as we are seeing right now. It makes sense for high level equipment and vessels, but you shouldn't need to jump through all of these hoops to get easy access to whites and greens so you can compete at a basic level in PvP.

No auction houses planned.

That said, it could be possible to add a general store to keeps, faction bases and whatnot. If you want a custom piece or high end stuff go to a player store, if you just want a so-so piece you go to the general store.

Crafters could just place their meh products and leave their top end results to the store. Could add a tax to the general store to also give stall owners and personal shopping an advantage.

The general store would also be a good idea to gatherers that want to easily sell their mats. The price of those should be normalized with ausence of stats.

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10 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

That said, it could be possible to add a general store to keeps, faction bases and whatnot. If you want a custom piece or high end stuff go to a player store, if you just want a so-so piece you go to the general store.

 

don't we already have that ... isn't there both general stores and player vendor stalls in the campaign beachheads?


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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Dakoth said:

The appeal was the ability of guilds (friends) to put an indelible mark on the game world, and if you had beef with another guild the ability to take it away (siege warfare). This was the true end game and as @mandalore pointed out required people that farmed gold off high level mobs because the cities and vendors required a constant flow of gold.

That being said Shadowbane was a victim of being to good at what it did, and with no reset mechanic created a scenario where after one guild had “crushed” its major competition it could rule with an iron fist and not have to worry about repercussions.

 

The farming required in Shadowbane was simplistic compared to Crowfall (And yes Mandalore, I had control of a city in SB pre-mine, Brother of Shadows-Mourning, with extensive use of offensive and defensive banes as well as playing with none of those responsibilities in OPP). For us, it was generally nothing more than a macro druid under the lizard temple which doubled as leveling the various classes we all had fun experimenting with.  More importantly, the majority of farming in SB was what could be considered end game (even optional) while in CF it's required at the front end to be even remotely viable in pvp. That wide gulf didn't exist in SB.

As someone who's been in a guild that went through a period of constantly being burnt to the ground, I agree, SB was good at what it did.  Maybe it was missing a mechanic that could have smoothed out that kind of loss.  But there is a balance.  Losing a fort or campaign right now is meh. The little risk involved makes it as exciting as capping a point in WoW or losing a BG...

 

Edited by GatorUSMC
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56 minutes ago, Nerd said:

I would be careful using EVE as an analogy because end game players in nullsec are effectively so rich that subcap ship loss does not matter,....

I am sure things have changed.  I have not played for many years after putting in 5 years of my life to that.  :)  Back in the day you did not have all the quick travel options.  And I guess they have ships with gates now.  But perhaps those changes to simplify travel and make logistics easier didn't really improve things at the end of the day?  If you wanted to run things to Empire or from Empire you had to get a freighter mission together and run the gauntlet.  This made for some interesting and nail biting play.  Certainly the risk could be minimized if 'done right'.

I hadn't given much thought to the market.  I think the vendor stalls are a nice touch.  That said, would they be rendered obsolete if everyone could just buy and sell to an open market?  Hmmm?


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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wrain said:

Hamon hit the nail right on the head. :)  While I still "embrace" a fuller more robust "mmo" setting...If the focus is NOT pvp...then this "crafting world" needs to have risk.  Put the eternal kingdoms in LIVE environment and let sieges run amok.

Because right now...this crafting is more fleshed out than the combat...and that's just.not.right. :(

 

 

 

I think they have two things that help with this ... 1) They have a mechanic that can limit what can brought from EK to Campaign.  Like in the current campaign nothing on your toon comes into the campaign from the EK.  2) Key ingredients for higher level crafting are only available in the campaign so the gatherers will assume the risk of gathering in the PvP environment.

 

They could also consider doing something with crafting.  Like if there were different level of crafting tables where high level crafting tables only existed in assailable forts or keeps that you had to hold.

Edited by Cosian

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1 hour ago, GatorUSMC said:

 

The farming required in Shadowbane was simplistic compared to Crowfall (And yes Mandalore, I had control of a city in SB pre-mine, Brother of Shadows-Mourning, with extensive use of offensive and defensive banes as well as playing with none of those responsibilities in OPP). For us, it was generally nothing more than a macro druid under the lizard temple which doubled as leveling the various classes we all had fun experimenting with.  More importantly, the majority of farming in SB was what could be considered end game (even optional) while in CF it's required at the front end to be even remotely viable in pvp. That wide gulf didn't exist in SB.

As someone who's been in a guild that went through a period of constantly being burnt to the ground, I agree, SB was good at what it did.  Maybe it was missing a mechanic that could have smoothed out that kind of loss.  But there is a balance.  Losing a fort or campaign right now is meh. The little risk involved makes it as exciting as capping a point in WoW or losing a BG...

 

From my perspective your acknowledgment that farming was done with a macro is more an indictment of it than a positive. In SB the integral mission of farming was subbed out to an account linked to a macro.

 

one of the reasons SB failed was its PvP heavy side didn’t appeal to a wide enough people.

 

widen your perspective a bit though. If you construct your guild with crafters and gatherers along with papers you won’t need mines. Your crafters and gatherers will be your mine.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Dakoth said:

one of the reasons SB failed was its PvP heavy side didn’t appeal to a wide enough people.

No, Shadowbane failed because it was FORCED out of pre-production due investors wanting their money.  800k subs, marketed as a full-fledged pvp game in 2003 (which was unheard of at the time).  I still remember seeing it at the counter at EB-GAMES in the mall. 

BUGS and CRASHES killed the game, it was not the developers or their vision...it was greed from non-gamers behind a table wanting their $ and not letting a product be finished/completed before roll-out.

Edited by Wrain

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Also Gator of course losing forts feels meh is because at this point you can’t lose all your crafting tables.

 

pre 5.7 losing your fort was crippling.

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22 minutes ago, Wrain said:

No, Shadowbane failed because it was FORCED out of pre-production due investors wanting their money.  800k subs, marketed as a full-fledged pvp game in 2003 (which was unheard of at the time).  I still remember seeing it at the counter at EB-GAMES in the mall. 

BUGS and CRASHES killed the game, it was not the developers or their vision...it was greed from non-gamers behind a table wanting their $ and not letting a product be finished/completed before roll-out.

Just 2 years later in Q1 2005, 2 months after actual launch WoW had 1.5 million subscriptions and there are those that estimate that it’s competition lost roughly 33% of their subs to it.

 

meaning if we accept your number of 800,000 that means in 2005 roughly 264,000 people left Shadowbane for WoW. And for anyone that continued their sub like I did that number continued to grow until the servers were shut down on Shadowbane.

 

your numbers are compiled from a time when there was very little competition. 

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WoW had a rocky start, successful MMOs aren’t very common. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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4 minutes ago, mandalore said:

WoW had a rocky start, successful MMOs aren’t very common. 

It did but that’s not my argument.

 

my argument is people left Shadowbane to play WoW because it simply offered more. As much as the hardcore pvp crowd wants to think they make up a majority of the player base they simply don’t. They are going to have to make concessions so the game will appeal to the widest player base possible. If they don’t Crowfall will fall into the unsuccessful MMO category.

 

its really just this simple. There would still be official UBISoft SB servers if the hardcore pvp bunch was a big enough group that their subscription money warranted it. Instead the SB crowed was relegated to emulators.

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Posted (edited)

I should probably create an own topic about it, but no new influx of new players is what killed Shadowbane hence why Ubisoft said enough is enough in 2009. But that is like (2003-2009) quite a few years with open world sandbox pvp worlds consider Shadowbane and Todd has not learned anything since 2003 with Wolfpack studios related to influx of new players and how to sustain and keep them happy within a Crowfall campaign. 

The new influx of players is essential to fill the map and keep campaigns crowded and busy (full servers) - if ACE turn away and say you better custard join a custard guild or you will have a hard time playing this game, because they sell pile of hot garbage items on npc vendors that new players will figure out they dont have a chance in PvP and just quit or leave the game to go back to normal WoW BG or League of legends which is free to play.

Or Fortnite with Ninja and Epic Games which is free to play, and soon Blades on my iphone from Todd Howard which is Free to Play.

How hard is it to grasp that new players is essential in this type of setting with 7 years of Ubisoft as a publisher with official Shadowbane open world sandbox sand castle concepts?

And don`t give me this custard crap that new players is not important in this type of game, because in 5.8 I`ve refused so many guild invites to test if the game design is pvp viable in small scale combat to sustain new players in Crowfall, and it`s really rough and hard to get into this Crowfall. And I played it since Hunger Dome on day 1.

Items need to drop again and good quality advance items need to be in the store on the npc vendors since guilds refuse to sell such items. Plate and mail need to be on vendors with white maths. Then if u are going to compete sure join a guild go after green, blue, epic maths to improve your items. 

But white math items need to be on the vendors, or advance items need to start dropping in the world with rings and necklaces to sustain new players who has a life outside of mmorpg. If u are not a gamer and dont have time to due to work, aggro wife, or jealous x girl friends who call all the time curious why you did not answer their sms..

Anyway if a new player dont have time with all the guild system and sieging - don`t lock the custard door tell cautious players to find another game, because they will when they figure it`s too hard in PvP due to massive item disadvantage. I`ve testing 5.8 without a guild and it`s a huge disspointment based on my reasoning, and if I want to win a campaign it`s not hard to start recruiting if an in-game guild options will be implemented in 2019. I have enough experience from old UO days to create a custard guild and start recruing a hoard of players to win a campaign, because the current system especially faction it`s a number game hence faction setting until we get what we want which is a Dreg setting and guild system.

 

Brief TL:DL Don`t tell new players to leave the game with the current item design in small scale pvp, because they have a life outside of mmorpg - we need to sustain and keep those players, because there are as many as the hardcore crowd who are all guilded now with (150-200) season CF veterans on avarage in 5.8 which are less active players than my alliance in Darkfall in 2010. And think about that @jtoddcoleman, because Ubisoft said stop in 2009 with Shadowbane hence why it`s important to sustain new players in your game design  - so pls. do something about it in alpha 6.0.

 

Edited by mythx

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Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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14 minutes ago, mythx said:

I have enough experience from old UO days to create a custard guild and start recruing a hoard of players to win a campaign, because the current system especially faction it`s a number game hence faction setting until we get what we want which is a Dreg setting and guild system.

The dregs is their guild versus guild campaign type.  They’ve said they wanted to test faction play first and then will do the dregs so that’s coming soon (tm). 

Are you sure you’re asking for dregs?  JTC made a comment years ago about guild size being intended to be around 50.  Is that too small or too big for you? 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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1 hour ago, mythx said:

How hard is it to grasp that new players is essential.....

 

There is nothing that is more important and every design change proposal should be prefaced with the question ... 'How will this impact new players numbers'?  

While making higher level kit immediately available for those that don't want to 'roll their own' may certainly help getting people PvP competitive faster, perhaps the gear and/or player power curve is too steep.  I do not have enough experience with the game to even have a feel for it.  I am just basing that thought on the posts of others that seem to indicate there is a substantial power difference between a noob and seasoned player.  Current design practices with most new games seem to favor a flatter and more horizontal leveling.  How does that play out here and should it be tuned to make newer players more PvP competitive earlier?


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Noob wading in here, but in general I'd say the biggest obstacle to new players is the price point. My GF freaked out like you wouldn't believe when she caught a glimpse of how much I was paying for a pre-release game - and if I hadn't just my new job (and thus a new wage) I certainly wouldn't have paid that price. I absolutely can't recommend this to my friends, they're in the same economic basket I'm in. 

I mean, I glazed over all the Shadowrun this and World of Wargames that that got us here, but the launcher is updating for the third time this afternoon so you get my two cents anyway :P

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How much did you pay?  I can’t see any of the current packages being angry gf worthy. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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10 minutes ago, Mikki said:

Noob wading in here, but in general I'd say the biggest obstacle to new players is the price point. My GF freaked out like you wouldn't believe when she caught a glimpse of how much I was paying for a pre-release game - and if I hadn't just my new job (and thus a new wage) I certainly wouldn't have paid that price. I absolutely can't recommend this to my friends, they're in the same economic basket I'm in. 

I mean, I glazed over all the Shadowrun this and World of Wargames that that got us here, but the launcher is updating for the third time this afternoon so you get my two cents anyway :P

How much did you pay?  I can’t see any of the current packages being angry gf worthy. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Posted (edited)

$50 USD - which is $75 NZD. Generally I'd expect to pay <$50 NZD for a complete game here, and most MMOs these days seem to offer some kind of free-to-play system. I'm scratching my head for the last time I paid this kinda money for a game and coming up fairly blank.

ETA: obviously I was willing to do so, so I'm not really complaining about the price, because I didn't have to pay it. I could have waited 5-6 years until the game hit a slump or a sale and bought in then. But I am aware that it's out of reach of every single one of my mates, and my girlfriend probably won't join me until it's significantly more polished. I just decided I wanted to play a centaur that badly.

Edited by Mikki

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