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Wrain

Mandatory changes that NEED TO BE ADDRESSED in this game.

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9 hours ago, Mikki said:

$50 USD - which is $75 NZD. Generally I'd expect to pay <$50 NZD for a complete game here, and most MMOs these days seem to offer some kind of free-to-play system. I'm scratching my head for the last time I paid this kinda money for a game and coming up fairly blank.

ETA: obviously I was willing to do so, so I'm not really complaining about the price, because I didn't have to pay it. I could have waited 5-6 years until the game hit a slump or a sale and bought in then. But I am aware that it's out of reach of every single one of my mates, and my girlfriend probably won't join me until it's significantly more polished. I just decided I wanted to play a centaur that badly.

Oh $50 seems reasonable to me but I'm probably the wrong person to gauge that.  If you play, and get a guild, you will get your $50 worth. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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16 hours ago, Mikki said:

$50 USD - which is $75 NZD. Generally I'd expect to pay <$50 NZD for a complete game here, and most MMOs these days seem to offer some kind of free-to-play system. I'm scratching my head for the last time I paid this kinda money for a game and coming up fairly blank.

ETA: obviously I was willing to do so, so I'm not really complaining about the price, because I didn't have to pay it. I could have waited 5-6 years until the game hit a slump or a sale and bought in then. But I am aware that it's out of reach of every single one of my mates, and my girlfriend probably won't join me until it's significantly more polished. I just decided I wanted to play a centaur that badly.

Average movie ticket prices in NZD are 9.91 USD. or 14.89 NZD.  So the game basically costs the price of 5 movie tickets. 

So in terms of entertainment time, assuming you only go to movies an average of 2 hrs long, that's 10hrs of entertainment equivalent, with no requirement to rebuy or subscribe to be competitive.

Not sure about you, but I got 10hrs of game time in just the last 4 days, so it seems to be if I had paid your game price, I would already have gotten my money's worth. 

It's funny to me how much people will spend per hour for other types of entertainment, and then get all bent out of shape about games, given the level of effort per hour that is required to be put into developing them. 

I think many are just unable to break down exactly how much active entertainment time a game can represent, compared to the other types of entertainment available, mostly because we take our entertainment in smaller bites, but the full game purchase price is one big one.

I wouldn't want your mates or girlfriend to jump in this early quite frankly.  The "game" is very much a test and proof of concept at the moment, which is why many of us backers put so much money into.

I am confident ACE won't launch until they have a game worthy of the pricetag.

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1 hour ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Average movie ticket prices in NZD are 9.91 USD. or 14.89 NZD.  So the game basically costs the price of 5 movie tickets. 

So in terms of entertainment time, assuming you only go to movies an average of 2 hrs long, that's 10hrs of entertainment equivalent, with no requirement to rebuy or subscribe to be competitive.

Not sure about you, but I got 10hrs of game time in just the last 4 days, so it seems to be if I had paid your game price, I would already have gotten my money's worth. 

It's funny to me how much people will spend per hour for other types of entertainment, and then get all bent out of shape about games, given the level of effort per hour that is required to be put into developing them. 

I think many are just unable to break down exactly how much active entertainment time a game can represent, compared to the other types of entertainment available, mostly because we take our entertainment in smaller bites, but the full game purchase price is one big one.

I wouldn't want your mates or girlfriend to jump in this early quite frankly.  The "game" is very much a test and proof of concept at the moment, which is why many of us backers put so much money into.

I am confident ACE won't launch until they have a game worthy of the pricetag.

$10 NZD at most cinemas, actually, but you don't usually have to hand over all that as a lump sum of one week's income. Also, to continue the movie metaphor, yo're charged at the point it's finished and viewable, not the point where the actors are doing their first reading. And given the piracy stats in NZ the argument could be made that most people in NZ consider the cost of 90min of entertainment to be too high.

My point is basically that, as you said, "the full game purchase price is one big one" and absolutely you get much more out of a game than your average book or movie, but as a lump sum ... it's not small and not cheap.

It was mentioned that apparently this games primary demographic is significantly older so perhaps we're approaching it from different ends of the spectrum, but as someone who has only just hit a living wage - I mean, I don't buy $70 jeans, and you can actually get arrested for not wearing clothes :D Perhaps most users here are at the stage of their life where they can afford to just ... spend ... that much money on anything at once but I'm still getting used to the idea I can afford to go to the dr now let alone "waste" money on entertainment.

As I said, I decided it was worth it to me, but even for a game this one is pricey and I do think it'll be something users struggle with going forward.

I think price is a far bigger factor in most potential players minds' than whether or not they have to grind for a few levels to get decent armour or what the in-game market situation looks like. People will accept flaws in all those systems if the price is something they can justify to themselves.

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Posted (edited)
On 12/31/2018 at 5:17 PM, Wrain said:

     Several months back, I posted a quick review of my thoughts on the direction of Crowfall.  I got ALOT of feedback both good and bad.  Surprisingly, most people seemed to actually AGREE with me on my post(s)/topic and so I thought I would do a second update.  

     As many of you know, alot of players/backers have either quit or have lost interest in this games direction.  Not surprising as alot of players purchased this with HIGH HOPES OF THE NEXT SHADOWBANE.  I fully respect and understand this is  not shadowbane 2, (or it would be called that) but marketing a game with some very very similar catch phrases and ideas can get you into hot water with gamers as its misleading.   (aka look at Shroud of the Avatar..(cough cough) UO fail anyone???)

Changes NEEDING rework/revamp.

1.  While you did take the time to "speed up" harvesting and make it more "mario-esque", The game and amount of work is still just WAY to farming/survival dependent.  If you want you actual core playerbase (and yes I do mean the Shadowbane/pvp diehards), stop catering and turning this into the next "zombie (fill in the blanks here) survial game 2016/2017/2018.  If I wanted to play RUST/Conan Exiles/and the whole rest of these fad games I would be.

2. The game is about COMBAT/THRONE RULE.  Once again, less time in these janky simple-safe talent trees/skills.  UO/Shadowbane/(ORIGINAL VANILLA WOW!!) all let us make massive screwed up toons that were just trash!  But we had FUN doing it!!!  It was about experimentation and LEARNING/individuality.  This hand holding playing "safe" is boring and insulting.  If I want to make a mino/dual-wield/busted-stealth/healer...then let me do it.  Ya he sucks, but you know what??? I'm UNIQUE!!!

3.  Some players...DO-NOT-WANT-TO-HARVEST-FARM. PERIOD. As in PERIOD.  Give us starter weapons and give us mob camps and let us do what we do best.  Again, WAY WAY to much time into this crafting/harvest scenario.  You are FORCING us to an extent to do it.  I have NO..NO desire along with my friends to smash trees and rocks.  We want WEAPONS/KILLING.

4.  The stances really really need to be looked into.  1 Key should cycle between ranged/melee.  To be honest, even making it possible to just not leave your combat stance to go BANG ON MORE TREES AND ROCKS (as that's what seems once again to be the focal point of this game so far) should be possible.  It's not smooth, its not fluid, and its unnecessary. 

There are 3 Major MMO's pouring out in 2019/2020 (besides this game).  The truth is one or two of these games will take the market of core pvpers.  I actually FEEL the devs are listening/correcting/responding to our concerns but i'm begging the team to really REALLY look into reddit posts/old forum comparison posts/etc and take a good long hard look at what "core" base you are aiming for.  (My girl walked in and stared at this game while I was playing..her response??? "It looks like a kid's game...") 

I want this game to flourish, but when friends quit because the game feels like a "farm simulator" there's a MAJOR issue.  Mark the maps on next update with "mob locations", prime harvest area's etc.  If you want players to "stick" and actually STAY in testing...give us what we signed up for...WAR.

 

Quote

Exactly whom do you think you are making these requests? You're certainly not making them on behalf of the majority player base - seems more like a vocal niche group. Shadowbane was an incredibly flawed game, which also happened to be ahead of its time. It was hindered by technical issues, clearly, but also by design. Crowfall is streamlining that and the tech has finally caught up. No one cares if you don't want to harvest farm - you don't even have to, just run out and fight with basic weaponry I guess then use your cash earnings to buy more gear - problem solved.

The talent trees were important to differentiate people within the same classes, so I don't think I need to go any further in to that - you just sound silly.

You should not be able to instantly switch from a melee/ranged tech tree without a buffer period of at least 3-5 seconds, your complaint makes it look like you're looking for an action RPG.

Nobody cares what your girl says, and asking a dev team to even consider Reddit opinions on the same level, much less above, forum backer opinions is just so outright hilarious I can't stand it. Also, what the Hell is going on with your capitalization? It's not even on points of emphasis half the time..Like..Jesus, man. Lay off the coke.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Retaliation

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21 hours ago, Mikki said:

$50 USD - which is $75 NZD. Generally I'd expect to pay <$50 NZD for a complete game here, and most MMOs these days seem to offer some kind of free-to-play system. I'm scratching my head for the last time I paid this kinda money for a game and coming up fairly blank.

ETA: obviously I was willing to do so, so I'm not really complaining about the price, because I didn't have to pay it. I could have waited 5-6 years until the game hit a slump or a sale and bought in then. But I am aware that it's out of reach of every single one of my mates, and my girlfriend probably won't join me until it's significantly more polished. I just decided I wanted to play a centaur that badly.

 

You paid for a full game later. Currently you paid for alpha/beta access. Learn to read about what you're purchasing next time - Laissez-faire

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On 1/1/2019 at 6:51 PM, Wrain said:

No, Shadowbane failed because it was FORCED out of pre-production due investors wanting their money.  800k subs, marketed as a full-fledged pvp game in 2003 (which was unheard of at the time).  I still remember seeing it at the counter at EB-GAMES in the mall. 

BUGS and CRASHES killed the game, it was not the developers or their vision...it was greed from non-gamers behind a table wanting their $ and not letting a product be finished/completed before roll-out.

Yeah, bugs and crashes..Which shouldn't have been there on the scheduled release date. That's not an investor screw up, that's the company's mismanagement and inability to hit timelines, which falls to the board to correct. Shadowbane had so many God awful problems, the skill imbalances, the lack of direction for leveling, the ganking on early levels. It was nothing if not fantastic on paper, but poorly implemented. Nobody wants this...Let's not forget their catastrophic launch where 300k or so couldn't login to play, and how many never came back. You need to let go..And also let go of your shift key.

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21 minutes ago, Retaliation said:

Yeah, bugs and crashes..Which shouldn't have been there on the scheduled release date. That's not an investor screw up, that's the company's mismanagement and inability to hit timelines, which falls to the board to correct. Shadowbane had so many God awful problems, the skill imbalances, the lack of direction for leveling, the ganking on early levels. It was nothing if not fantastic on paper, but poorly implemented. Nobody wants this...Let's not forget their catastrophic launch where 300k or so couldn't login to play, and how many never came back. You need to let go..And also let go of your shift key.

I laughed out loud.  


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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I'm still only a couple of days in, but I'm really not finding the farming so bad yet. I guess over enough iterations it would become a drag, but the end user will only have to undergo level progression a handful of times and the cap is only level 30 (however, if that cap is set to rise, I could understand the concern more). Probably a controversial opinion, but I think some areas could use even more resources. It feels like a see an awful lot of knotwood compared to the amount of useful wood sometimes.

I do like the idea of a single button to switch between stances though, Admittedly, like this, I can't see any possible way someone could accidentally wind up hitting the survival key during combat, but just make the middle of nowhere H key the trigger and you'll still keep that advantage. I do think its worth keeping the stances though. I like having the double hotbar, it's the changeover that bugs me.

It might be nice as well if changing into survival meant the character lifted or brandished the equipped tool somehow though. Just to make it a little more obvious before I try harvest silver with my hammer or anything.

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On 02/01/2019 at 4:57 AM, blazzen said:

Easy come, easy go doesn't necessarily mean less people out in the world or less overall harvesting. 

I'd make it take only 1 metal ring for mail armor instead of 3 (which lowers the armor layers from 9 to 3) and I'd make it only 1 metal scale for the head/gloves/boots and the same for the corresponding leather/plate recipes. Cut the metal bar and plank recipes from 3/3/3 down to 2/2/2. This is the "easy come" part of things in that items cost less resources AND it simplifies the armor crafting recipes which are very time consuming and tedious. 

The "easy go" part is cutting durability. Right now white advanced durability on the chest and weapons is around 1000-1100. The boots/gloves/helm are a bit less which doesn't make much sense when you consider durability loss is at random which results in these off pieces breaking faster then the rest of your gear. I'd normalize all base durability on advanced armor and weapons to about 500. 

It'll be easier to get that armor but it'll be roughly equally faster to lose it. This would even make it possible to have equipped item loot on more harsh rulesets like the dregs without it being too terribly devastating like it would be right now. This also makes the "hump" for new players to get that initial set of advanced gear easier to overcome. 

Hard to comment on city building and sieges just yet as we won't know what that will take until the dregs comes online.  

Full set of armor (Plate in this case) takes the following
108 Iron, 108 Ore (Combo depending on stats) 22 hides, 18 stone, 50 Dust (Roughly and a like 8 meat and wood)

in spring/summer i farm 150-200 Ore in 20 minutes which is just shy of a full armor
30 minutes of harvesting is more than enough for a full set of armor.

Weapons are 10 ingots and 2 planks/leather for 2hders and half that for 1hders which is less than 20 mins or farming and they last so long, im still using my set from 3 campaigns ago and its like half dura.

so 45min of farming = 3 or so weeks of fighting before breaking atm and thats fully loaded up armor aswell with all the bells and trimmings


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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On 02/01/2019 at 5:33 AM, hamon said:

I agree with the OP. This game should be a systematic PVP MMORPG right from the start. We should already start in a hostile environment of intense combat against other players and not that happy farm joke. Everyone knows that what made Crowfall win the most anticipated MMORPG titles was the PVP system.

Before in Crowfall you used a lobby to locate matches and carnage begins. Of course, that's not enough to create a mmorpg, but I think DEVs should perfect the Hunger Dome's queue system. It needs to be implemented with lobby, queue system and MM. PVP games from the beginning through a queue system, and players would get the reagents to craft in the cities using resources obtained from the PVP quick game maps. Ranking system that would be implemented PERSISTENTLY and players would have ranking medals visible to other players in the cities.

I'm testing Pagan right now and I guarantee that when it's released for PVP it's going to be a lot better than Crowfall with this outdated campaign focused on craft without PVP at first moment. I personally hate Wargaming's monetization system and so I'm posting this to warn the DEVs to get out of their comfort zone.

Albion Online is already paying the high price to add PVE grind in a primary PVP game and has already lost 90% of its original playerbase while trying to make a PVE grind and PVP only in later game even though it is being advertised as a persistent world PVP game.

 

you know what happens to games that are PvP focused and neglect other aspects?
They die a painful death take Darkfall for example had a hardcore following of PvPers but given the first month the population was half of release and continued to drop every month. The main reason for this there was not enough focus on PvE/Crafting elements of the game so people who would farm would die constantly loose everything and quit and then there was a slow down ward spiral of not enough players for the hardcore pvp players to farm effectively mobs camps were desserted so outside of seiges no Pvp even happened so PvPers started leaving due to nothing to do until the game shut down. This has happened in every PvP centered game ive seen than neglects the PvE elements of the game. Make a game to hardcore PvP wise and it will die due to lack of players for PvPers.
Make a game for PvE/crafters however you keep content for PvPers cause there a population. Players = content for pvpers without a good player base it gets boring fast for those guys and then they leave.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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On 02/01/2019 at 10:52 AM, Dakoth said:

It did but that’s not my argument.

 

my argument is people left Shadowbane to play WoW because it simply offered more. As much as the hardcore pvp crowd wants to think they make up a majority of the player base they simply don’t. They are going to have to make concessions so the game will appeal to the widest player base possible. If they don’t Crowfall will fall into the unsuccessful MMO category.

 

its really just this simple. There would still be official UBISoft SB servers if the hardcore pvp bunch was a big enough group that their subscription money warranted it. Instead the SB crowed was relegated to emulators.

Exactly the more there is for non pvp centric players the more players there are for pvp centric players. the more players you can get into a game the more content there is for PvPers.

Im a pvp player and im gonna say right now they need more PvE content be it rare spawns mobs that give goodies or ways the pve guys can contribe to the war/faction. Take gold for upgrading guards/more guards, to resources to sacrafice for scoreboards to getting the pvpe players geared. without elements to keep these players entertained your gonna be loosing alot of elements to keep pvp guys entertained aswell. Ive seen it 3 times in the past with al the darkfall releases great game but no PvE or boring pvE things and eventualy population died out slowly as more and more poeple left due to lack of population to hunt.


Veeshan Midst of UXA

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1 hour ago, Retaliation said:

Yeah, bugs and crashes..Which shouldn't have been there on the scheduled release date. That's not an investor screw up, that's the company's mismanagement and inability to hit timelines, which falls to the board to correct. Shadowbane had so many God awful problems, the skill imbalances, the lack of direction for leveling, the ganking on early levels. It was nothing if not fantastic on paper, but poorly implemented. Nobody wants this...Let's not forget their catastrophic launch where 300k or so couldn't login to play, and how many never came back. You need to let go..And also let go of your shift key.

 

1 hour ago, mandalore said:

I laughed out loud.  

Obviously an armchair developer who has never had marketing or a board breathing down their neck after some ass hat decided to publish a specific date and wrote cheques for the creatives months before developers were even really talked to.

I have been in software dev for two decades, worked with a couple dozen vendors and development shops in four different industries, and I have only ever seen deadlines hit once, when the product was completely finished before anyone made any deadline promises to marketing.

Nothing releases without bugs, and nothing releases on the same timeline as estimates, ever.

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Aye Krakken, in agreement with you 100%.  Its unfortunate but "money" is what governs gaming now.  The "artist/creator(s)" sign their lives away to hopefully at least get a portion of what their dream was.

@mandalore is one of the few people I just don't even bother responding too.  Found my old original post 6 months ago that caused a wave; got a good laugh at his old posts on that as well.  Aka, his post-to-like ratio is enough evidence of long-winded spittle.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, veeshan said:

you know what happens to games that are PvP focused and neglect other aspects?
They die a painful death take Darkfall for example had a hardcore following of PvPers but given the first month the population was half of release and continued to drop every month. The main reason for this there was not enough focus on PvE/Crafting elements of the game so people who would farm would die constantly loose everything and quit and then there was a slow down ward spiral of not enough players for the hardcore pvp players to farm effectively mobs camps were desserted so outside of seiges no Pvp even happened so PvPers started leaving due to nothing to do until the game shut down. This has happened in every PvP centered game ive seen than neglects the PvE elements of the game. Make a game to hardcore PvP wise and it will die due to lack of players for PvPers.
Make a game for PvE/crafters however you keep content for PvPers cause there a population. Players = content for pvpers without a good player base it gets boring fast for those guys and then they leave.

In my view CrowFall's PVE should be present with the PVP clearly. Take a look at CrowFall's plot focused on survival against HUNGER effect:
The player arrives in a town that is about to be devoured by the Hunger. The player needs to collect and bring to the city all possible resources and has the difficult task of facing his brothers in the Battlegrounds for the few remaining foods in a slowly devoured world with crescent zones without any resources.


The player goes to a recruiter in the city and after entering the lobby with MM and queue he goes into the open world map where he needs to fight for survival all the time without stopping.
There he starts collecting everything he can with a small group of allies. Players gain XP with PVE elements and will learn new skills/talents, manufacture items and most importantly need to eat, but food is very limited. There would be two ways to win the game: logistics and war. You would choose between stocking as much food as possible or simply stealing it. You would build a Fort with defenses to hide your riches and spend the winter. Anyway, all this could be put into the game, but always focused on the competitive against hunger and against other players.

The problem is that as the game progresses food becomes scarce and players are getting more and more hungrier. There begins the war, because when you see enemies will desperately fight for food to simply stay alive!


Players will fight hopelessly all the time to last as long as possible on the map. When they are killed by hunger or other enemies the  player returns to the  city and uses the resources that he gained during the match to do research and create better items. Better players on Craft or PVP receives Condecorations and ranked positions due more survival in "Hunger Dome" maps with perhaps 30-60 min duration.

Edited by hamon

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8 hours ago, Wrain said:

 

@mandalore is one of the few people I just don't even bother responding too.  Found my old original post 6 months ago that caused a wave; got a good laugh at his old posts on that as well.  Aka, his post-to-like ratio is enough evidence of long-winded spittle.

Why would I care about being liked? 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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what would be nice is some sort of mine where you get like x resource in y time that you can capture and then there is a caravan that transports its to the temple. if you raid the caravan you get the resources. if you defend it you get the resources. idk if one can implement something like that or if its contradictionary to the harvesting philosophy but sounds interesting.

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When there's no content for the casual players, all what will be left are the 30 hardcore pvp players whining why none is playing the game.  This happened over and over again, but the developers refuse to learn. Darkfall, Mortal Online, Albion, Perpetuum  are all dead games now, because they only kept working on the pvp aspects. 

If you want to pvp 100% of the time, why don't play the countless existing competitive games? 

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 I enjoy the harvesting mechanic to the game, it kind of give a Stardew Valley feeling.  I would hate to see Crowfall just become another basic cookie cutter MMO.

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1 hour ago, Jasdemi said:

If you want to pvp 100% of the time, why don't play the countless existing competitive games? 

They are game tourists that play every game when it comes out and leave the moment they are disappointed.  Always another game to visit.  

They want MOBA style pvp but without the label of a MOBA.  Insta q always fair fights where individual skill is king and they never have to work at any underlying mechanics besides pvp. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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Disagree on all points made in the op. 

The biggest and most compelling part of this game is the need to be successful at crafting and gvg in order to win the campaign.

Don't us "we want". Speak for yourself. As far as I know now you're in the minority on these points. 

 

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