BigJerk

Fae Assassins overpopulated, op

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I think the Fae Dash (combat wise) is the best, along with Wood Elf, for the topic of racial abilities. Double Jump + dash gets some serious spacing, plus disengage jumps.

I do think they are strong, but not OP. Once there is more population, harvesters will go out together which will make them less effective. On the flip side, once you can't just swap disciplines it will be harder to just slot anti-stealth. In the game's current state (i know minors will be baked into talent tree) I think it is unreasonable to have a harvester have to sacrifice a major disc for detection. Mole hunter/illusionist could be examined and put into a minor disc maybe. Something that is annoying for harvesters to use, but increases their chances of detecting a stalking assassin. Obviously not viable considering the future of minors, but you get the concept. 

For group combat (5v5+), I've seen  a mixed bag. But it all boils down to the basic "have someone protect your healers". When they do, I go in and get melted in seconds. But in smaller 3v3-ish size fights, the healer has to run or die. 

They ARE niche and I think look stronger than they actually are right now because of a lot of new players that don't know how to deal with them on a day-to-day basis. Once things normalize and the average player skill increases, they may very well be underpowered. There are so many mechanics in the game to counter them. Every single DoT, plus detection can totally neutralize an assassin. It's a cool class right now but might just be the flavor of the test. 

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After talking with some guild-mates.  Many feel mole hunter is a super hard counter.  If they leave it the same many will just play an alt to gather with and put mole hunter on it.

The real issue will happen when assassins/duelist with possibly a guinecean healer, start grouping and picking off a gatherer that isn’t stacked up.  I love the fact you have to gather and there is risk.  Just need to keep both sides balance.  Mole hunter is a hard counter and should easily work.  But will cause people to play alts. 

In conclusion, if they leave it the same I think mole hunter/alts will happen after meta switches to stealth groups.  If they move to minor discipline more people will use it.  Either way it will work and it is a good time to look at this issue.  Stealth is very hard to balance and can get out of control quickly.

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One of the reasons I enjoyed pvp testing New World and currently testing Atlas. No cheeseball easy win stealth/invisibility mechanic...players have to crouch and/or duck hiding into the environment to attempt to remain undetected, dye their gear to camoflauge among the terrain, and can't hit a button for 100% escapability.

But just remember stealth in Crowfall doesn't create broken pvp it's on you because you don't know how to prepare for it.

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LOL. Until its December patch New World also had a lock-on mechanic that made lunging melee attacks never miss. Perfect PvP game. 😏  

15 minutes ago, Barab said:

But just remember stealth in Crowfall doesn't create broken pvp it's on you because you don't know how to prepare for it.

Aye. 👍🏾  

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55 minutes ago, Barab said:

players have to crouch and/or duck hiding into the environment to attempt to remain undetected, dye their gear to camoflauge among the terrain

How well does that work when your opponent lowers detail levels and turns off ground clutter?

Cow-Eating-Funny-Camouflage-Grass-Man.jp

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12 minutes ago, VaMei said:

How well does that work when your opponent lowers detail levels and turns off ground clutter?

Cow-Eating-Funny-Camouflage-Grass-Man.jp

Heh that's golden there, not so much a problem though in either game, even with gamma up terrian helps hide your name tag, either way at least no easy 100% all reward no risk mechanic.

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A couple issues with the risk/reward.  The assassin probably has very little on them, so risks very little doing this.  Harvesters will often have an hour or more time invested before they want to return to craft/bank items.  I think this is fine with current counter. 

Also I am hearing people are using macro’s to put stuff in spirit banks.  Hope this is stopped, I hate the idea of using a macro to counter stealth.

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On 01.01.2019 at 11:38 PM, Puffs said:

Duelists can hit 2.7k+. Pitfighter Champs are literally unkillable 1v1, even 1 vs 3 sometimes without another Champ or a healer, Plate Confessors while they don't do massive burst like an Assassin or Duelist, will kite you 24/7 and you will literally not be able to touch a good one. You have to either out-sustain their mana until they Fervor, or die. Leather Rangers, if built right, can shred most classes down to 0 in a few seconds but are extremely squishy in return for that burst.

I test against Endless all the time on my Assassin. He has literally never died 1v1, because he literally cannot. He takes on 3-4 people all the time. Yes, he's a damn good player but he'll even admit that Minotaur and the Champion class are overpowered. Assassin is in a good place right now, being not too strong it's silly, and not being completely useless. Once disciplines are a commitment however, their stealth mechanic may become overpowered, maybe not when Perception starts working, it's 50/50. As it is now, everyone has the ability to swap anti-stealth discs and more importantly all it takes is one DoT to completely ruin an Assassin's day. Their only sustain is in stealth. If they can't sustain stealth for the heals, they're screwed. If they can't get into stealth because you have a DoT on them, they're screwed. 

Whoever thought it was a good idea to give Minotaurs immunity to frontal stun in a PvP game must have been pretty high, especially considering the Retaliate mechanic. 

you are right. duelist burst with impale is insane, champion pitfighter unkillable, confessor also has very OP shield in small scale. I suggest ACE also investigate to those classes.

but you are right simply from your side. duelist, champion and confessor have one broken promo over other promos (correct me if I wrong coz I test all of this classes in 5.8). this is a problem. it should be addressed. they can't escape any time they want except duelist.

current stealth mechanic is broken. this is a fact. with CF performance this will be small scale game and all stealthers have advantages over any other class because they simply do not lose their stuff. duelists, assassins, broken wood elves, they are force you to take anti stealth discs. we can argue alot but amount of posts about stealthers already out of control.

 

ps. fae race with CF landscape + stealth + crazy dps = most populated class.

pss. ACE should watch statistics for K/D/S since 5.8 starts and do something.

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1 hour ago, makkon said:

duelist, champion and confessor have one broken promo over other promos

Assassin is no different. One promo is king of the meta. Fight a Fae Cut Throat Assassin, then fight a Black Guard or Vandal. It's a whole different game. Black Guard doesn't even have a stealth opener.

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Just now, MJayed said:

Assassin is borderline trash vs a proper group. They nerfed it hard from 5.7.

How is a good group defending against a group of stealth?  Mole hunter/archers obviously would work.

Always staying close would also work, but hard to do when everyone is harvesting.  The time to kill is very short if they are able to attack first because of stealth.  They then can retreat/re-stealth pretty quickly. 

I see it as a pack taking out the prey that isn't close enough to their group. 

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7 minutes ago, Zorph said:

How is a good group defending against a group of stealth?  Mole hunter/archers obviously would work.

 

Always staying close would also work, but hard to do when everyone is harvesting.  The time to kill is very short if they are able to attack first because of stealth.  They then can retreat/re-stealth pretty quickly. 

I see it as a pack taking out the prey that isn't close enough to their group. 

 

I said a proper group. Yes they can kill people who get separated. 

But 5 assassins would not be able to loot a harvester they killed if a proper group is sitting on the body. 

Even without any anti-stealth discs a good 5 man group shouldn't have a problem with killing/making a group of assassins run away.

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Posted (edited)
Just now, MJayed said:

I said a proper group. Yes they can kill people who get separated. 

But 5 assassins would not be able to loot a harvester they killed if a proper group is sitting on the body. 

Even without any anti-stealth discs a good 5 man group shouldn't have a problem with killing/making a group of assassins run away.

If the rest can get there in time to stop looting that is great, IMHO.  I would love to hear this tested. 

I think if someone did the test and posted a video it would stop the complaining.  I am sure most of this is because Zybak taking down a group.

Edited by Zorph

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1 minute ago, Zorph said:

If the rest can get there in time to stop looting that is great, IMHO.  I would love to hear this tested. 

To loot, the enemy has to chop the head and start right clicking the inventory. There is a current bug allowing people to chop heads in stealth, but after that is fixed the chopper is vulnerable to knockdown.

ofc if you harvest too far away from each other there will be issues, but that is something you can control. After you secure the body have them release and you can loot the stuff. Odds are some of the assassins will have agent, so don't even bother rezzing.

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Just now, MJayed said:

To loot, the enemy has to chop the head and start right clicking the inventory. There is a current bug allowing people to chop heads in stealth, but after that is fixed the chopper is vulnerable to knockdown.

ofc if you harvest too far away from each other there will be issues, but that is something you can control. After you secure the body have them release and you can loot the stuff. Odds are some of the assassins will have agent, so don't even bother rezzing.

Didn't know it was a bug to chop heads in stealth.

 

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4 hours ago, makkon said:

you are right. duelist burst with impale is insane, champion pitfighter unkillable, confessor also has very OP shield in small scale. I suggest ACE also investigate to those classes.

but you are right simply from your side. duelist, champion and confessor have one broken promo over other promos (correct me if I wrong coz I test all of this classes in 5.8). this is a problem. it should be addressed. they can't escape any time they want except duelist.

current stealth mechanic is broken. this is a fact. with CF performance this will be small scale game and all stealthers have advantages over any other class because they simply do not lose their stuff. duelists, assassins, broken wood elves, they are force you to take anti stealth discs. we can argue alot but amount of posts about stealthers already out of control.

 

ps. fae race with CF landscape + stealth + crazy dps = most populated class.

pss. ACE should watch statistics for K/D/S since 5.8 starts and do something.

To start off, simply because you see a lot of posts about something doesn’t automatically determine whether or not something is OP.

Every single class has their strongest specific promotion, this will always be the case. In any game with talent tree specialization? There will always be a strongest, just like there will always be the strongest classes and race for those specific classes, it’s simply impossible to do otherwise unless everyone had the exact same everything. 

Stealthers force you to take an antistealth disc? Every single class can “force” you to take something else to have an advantage, just as there are x this many stealthers, there are x this many people with slashing, fire dmg, healing, etc.

Yes it’s difficult to kill a stealthing harvester. You want to do that? Build towards it. 

K/d/s? Are you seriously recommending ACE monitor kill death ratios for a MMORPG game to determine what to nerf...?

Your only point for stealth being broken as of this moment, is they lose their stuff less. Do you have more, what are your others?

There are plenty of ways to deal with stealth in this game, and there are risks and rewards to it.

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@Puffs Why would they not consider K/D ratios?  I am not saying auto nerf if a class or race has a super high K/D, but you need to look at why?

Is it because players haven't adjusted?  Is it because a skill is OP?  Is it just current meta? 

Sounds like part of the problem is there is a bug allowing them to cut heads off in stealth.  Sounds like not many are running mole hunter or adjusted yet. 

BTW - after reading more and listening to many, it seems there is enough counters to let it run it's course IMHO.  But I still would hope they look at KD.  This is for all classes, BTW.

 

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1 minute ago, Zorph said:

@Puffs Why would they not consider K/D ratios?  I am not saying auto nerf if a class or race has a super high K/D, but you need to look at why?

Is it because players haven't adjusted?  Is it because a skill is OP?  Is it just current meta? 

Sounds like part of the problem is there is a bug allowing them to cut heads off in stealth.  Sounds like not many are running mole hunter or adjusted yet. 

BTW - after reading more and listening to many, it seems there is enough counters to let it run it's course IMHO.  But I still would hope they look at KD.  This is for all classes, BTW.

 

Can't tell if a healer is OP at healing from it's KD.  Can't tell if a support CC class is OP at CC from it's KD. Solo ganking will dramatically skew KD vs GvG combat.  What can be thought of as OP in 1v1 could be squishy and useless once it turns into 10v10.

KD is one stat, and it's not really a good one, and besides ACE has said they are not building a balanced game from the get go.

From 2015

 

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Posted (edited)

@KrakkenSmacken

It is not the only stat and it might give false positives.  It doesn’t give you the reason. Let’s say you put in a patch and now KD increases/decreases drastically.  They should take a look to see if that is too much of an adjustment.  It is just an indicator.

Same with population of classes.  If a class is hardly played doesn’t mean it is not good, but it might be an indicator.

 

 

Edited by Zorph

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15 minutes ago, Zorph said:

@KrakkenSmacken

It is not the only stat and it might give false positives.  It doesn’t give you the reason. Let’s say you put in a patch and now KD increases/decreases drastically.  They should take a look to see if that is too much of an adjustment.  It is just an indicator.

Same with population of classes.  If a class is hardly played doesn’t mean it is not good, but it might be an indicator.

 

 

True, it is a potential indicator. I'm just pointing out more than anything that with the ACE design philosophy we should expect some classes to have that sort of KD ratio disparity.

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