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BigJerk

Fae Assassins overpopulated, op

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Zorph said:

@Puffs Why would they not consider K/D ratios?  I am not saying auto nerf if a class or race has a super high K/D, but you need to look at why?

Is it because players haven't adjusted?  Is it because a skill is OP?  Is it just current meta? 

Sounds like part of the problem is there is a bug allowing them to cut heads off in stealth.  Sounds like not many are running mole hunter or adjusted yet. 

BTW - after reading more and listening to many, it seems there is enough counters to let it run it's course IMHO.  But I still would hope they look at KD.  This is for all classes, BTW.

 

It's a MMORPG. A match-based PvP system, sure. Look at how often certain classes, comps, etc win and their stats. A MMORPG?  Essentially a KDR is completely pointless in such a setting because there are so many different variables, ganking being one of them. You have levels, gear, group comps, differences in number, skill level (some people have been playing for 2 years), not to mention the lag lately, and it's just not a good idea. How the hell would they take into account all of that? It's not just "false positives." 

It's a PvP game where you can lose all of your stuff by being killed, that you just farmed three hours for. Stealthers do this the best. A lot of people don't form groups or make friends. Of course there's going to be salt on the forums about it. On top of this it's a pre-alpha and there is next to no resources online, so the skill curve, meta, etc is widely unknown to most. It's hard to learn.

Edited by Puffs

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23 hours ago, Siruss said:

I think the Fae Dash (combat wise) is the best, along with Wood Elf, for the topic of racial abilities. Double Jump + dash gets some serious spacing, plus disengage jumps.

I do think they are strong, but not OP. Once there is more population, harvesters will go out together which will make them less effective. On the flip side, once you can't just swap disciplines it will be harder to just slot anti-stealth. In the game's current state (i know minors will be baked into talent tree) I think it is unreasonable to have a harvester have to sacrifice a major disc for detection. Mole hunter/illusionist could be examined and put into a minor disc maybe. Something that is annoying for harvesters to use, but increases their chances of detecting a stalking assassin. Obviously not viable considering the future of minors, but you get the concept. 

For group combat (5v5+), I've seen  a mixed bag. But it all boils down to the basic "have someone protect your healers". When they do, I go in and get melted in seconds. But in smaller 3v3-ish size fights, the healer has to run or die. 

They ARE niche and I think look stronger than they actually are right now because of a lot of new players that don't know how to deal with them on a day-to-day basis. Once things normalize and the average player skill increases, they may very well be underpowered. There are so many mechanics in the game to counter them. Every single DoT, plus detection can totally neutralize an assassin. It's a cool class right now but might just be the flavor of the test. 

Whenever I play, if I'm not harvesting with friends? I'm ganking. I have seen numerous groups of people farming together. It's extremely easy to dedicate one player to running mole hunter, etc and keeping it active when hitting motherlodes / at certain intervals. I actually ganked a group of three, killed them all but barely came out alive. I found them again with an extra player, and one of the ones I killed started doing what I just said. They learned from me ganking them. (Sadly my group didn't get there before they recalled, would have been a blast and we would have got some nice resources D:)

I'd say people need to adapt and stop whining on the forums, but, that'll never happen. 

It's just like how when I harvest with friends? I'm the dedicated gatherer. My inventory is full of all the loot, I have my ultimate up, and I am completely disciplined for combat / survival. We'll go for the kill, but if it's too much I am at any time ready to get the hell out of there and recall to drop-off.

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On ‎01‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 10:26 AM, BigJerk said:

At the very least , 50 percent of the population is a Fae Assassin , I your not paying attention for 10 seconds , your dead , with multiple 2500 + hits back to back. On top of dot poisons . Based on half the population being a Fae Assassin I think they agree

I personally see more champions than assassins

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Champions are going to get nerfed as expected.

We are still in pre-alpha.  Stealth is almost always a huge issue. 

This is how some people who want to craft/gather view it:

  • I have to gather with protection, while the solo assassin is able to hunt alone.
  • It is likely faster to gather by playing an assassin than harvesting
  • I have to be on guard all the time and not too far away from the group.
  • I have to gear to defend against assassins which opens me up to gathering less or fighting less.
  • Even with all this a lone assassin is likely going to be able to catch someone in our group to far from the pack. 
  • Groups of assassins will be very hard to defend against
  • If we catch the assassin he is likely to get away because he can restealth.

Yes there are counters and we should probably be talking about the best ways for the gathering people to counter assassins.  There needs to be balance.  If it isn't fun for gathering (many don't find it fun anyhow), because they get ganked all the time.   It is fun that there is a risk and that is very important.  But it is generally more fun ganking than being ganked.

Maybe the 3 players, just played it terrible, but I am guessing if this happens all the time they won't enjoy the game.  The assassin should get the jump on people and should have an advantage.  But they should also be taking a big risk if attacking against larger groups.

I feel Artcraft needs to keep a very close eye on this concern.  This is an issue were they could lose the sheep/prey.  Again I am not even calling for a nerf or a change.  We need to talk about people running the counters more first.

 

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2 hours ago, Zorph said:

Maybe the 3 players, just played it terrible, but I am guessing if this happens all the time they won't enjoy the game.  The assassin should get the jump on people and should have an advantage.  But they should also be taking a big risk if attacking against larger groups.

They are at a great risk. 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, mandalore said:

They are at a great risk. 

Sorry for my ignorance. But what exactly are they (the assasins) risking?  

 

In eve when trying to kill miners or explorers you always were at risk to lose your equipped vesell. In crowfall you only lose your inventory. Which normally is empty for people who are looking to gank 

Edited by YodaDoge

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10 minutes ago, YodaDoge said:

Sorry for my ignorance. But what exactly are they (the assasins) risking?  

 

In eve when trying to kill miners or explorers you always were at risk to lose your equipped vesell. In crowfall you only lose your inventory. Which normally is empty for people who are looking to gank 

Gear breaks with use and death.  Eventually the spirit bank will leave testing.  No spirit bank means if they kill somebody and loot something they either have to walk around with it till they get to a localized bank or risk losing their haul.  We are still missing part of the anti stealth system: track.  The revealing aspect of it is in though, just have to be vigilant and spec into it. 

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But also the ganked person will lose durability.
And the way to the next bank usually is not too long (at the moment).

So if there is no further punishment for ganking that will always mean that a ganker risks the same or less than a harvester while having a way higher possible reward per time spent.
Which seems to me to be quite inbalanced. 

 

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28 minutes ago, YodaDoge said:

But also the ganked person will lose durability.
And the way to the next bank usually is not too long (at the moment).

So if there is no further punishment for ganking that will always mean that a ganker risks the same or less than a harvester while having a way higher possible reward per time spent.
Which seems to me to be quite inbalanced. 

 

Opportunity costs and time, that's the risk.

While out skulking about close to harvesting points, the assassin is not actively making gains, while a harvester is pretty much always whacking on something and making gains. I can harvest about 100 resources per 20 food buff in the spring, while when I'm an assassin I might look for that same 20 minutes and see nothing but empty zones, or parties that are too well organized to take on.

I am much more profitable while harvesting, than I am while assassinating. Harvesting is less fun, but it is more profitable.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

hile out skulking about close to harvesting points, the assassin is not actively making gains, while a harvester is pretty much always whacking on something and making gains. I can harvest about 100 resources per 20 food buff in the spring, while when I'm an assassin I might look for that same 20 minutes and see nothing but empty zones, or parties that are too well organized to take on.

That would imply that the ratio space/people stays the same. As far as i know there will be way more players in the future. 
So i would expect that finding people will be a problem. 

And even if density doesn't change it is not changing my point because spending 20 minutes for nothing (not finding a target) is literally the same risk a harvester has. 
At the same time you can have way more reward (it is quite possible to gank up to 2 or 3 people within 20 minutes). 

Edited by YodaDoge

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1 minute ago, YodaDoge said:

That would imply that the ratio space/people stays the same. As far as i know there will be way more players in the future. 
So i would not count on that finding people will be a problem. 

And even if density doesn't change it is not changing my point because spending 20 minutes for nothing (not finding a target) is literally the same risk a harvester has. 
At the same time you can have way more reward (it is quite possible to gank up to 2 or 3 people within 20 minutes). 

More people = less likely to get a gank, because more people will be in the average group, and less people will run around solo. Also more people around will mean it's more likely that an assassin hunter type that really just hates us, will go hunting as soon as one is reported to the group/team/faction.

Bold: That's just plain false, nodes don't move around, they are stationary for the campaign.  You have that risk, ONCE, if you happen to not be totally clueless and forget where everything is. After that, you build a pattern of known harvesting nodes, and circulate.  

If you have some hard evidence to back up the above speculated gank rate, I would love to see it.

 

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

More people = less likely to get a gank, because more people will be in the average group, and less people will run around solo.

Gankers can go as a group too tough? 

 

2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Bold: That's just plain false, nodes don't move around, they are stationary for the campaign.  You have that risk, ONCE, if you happen to not be totally clueless and forget where everything is. After that, you build a pattern of known harvesting nodes, and circulate

And assasins will not be able to remember popular harvest routes and visit them more often? 

 

2 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

If you have some hard evidence to back up the above speculated gank rate, I would love to see it.

The current game is pre-alpha and the game is obviously not yet as populated as it will be. 
Also i have never speculated about gank rates i just have compared the pros and cons of ganking and harvesting. 

 

7 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

You have that risk, ONCE,

About which exact risk that exists only once are you talking about here?

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2 minutes ago, YodaDoge said:

Also i have never speculated about gank rates

...

About which exact risk that exists only once are you talking about here?

Not finding a node to harvest. Wasting your time prowling around looking for resources. That should only happen the first time you are in a new area of the campaign world, if you happen to be a decent harvester that knows their job that is.

The rest of your post, sounds like both styles have advantages and disadvantages, just as they should. 

Oh and you did speculate about gank rates.

Quote

(it is quite possible to gank up to 2 or 3 people within 20 minutes). 

 

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

Oh and you did speculate about gank rates.

Oh i see. i thought about something different when you said gank rates. (How often you get ganked as a harvester) 
 

4 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Not finding a node to harvest. Wasting your time prowling around looking for resources.


That's indeed something that only happens once so i did not mention it anyway. 
 

Well we have to see how it turns out.
If the game stays as it is with just more players my critique points might come true but that's indeed not the case.

As you already mentioned there is stuff like tracking and much more still to come.
Probably the recall ain't staying as it is too.
So how it really turns out will indeed just be speculation.

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45 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

Opportunity costs and time, that's the risk.

While out skulking about close to harvesting points, the assassin is not actively making gains, while a harvester is pretty much always whacking on something and making gains. I can harvest about 100 resources per 20 food buff in the spring, while when I'm an assassin I might look for that same 20 minutes and see nothing but empty zones, or parties that are too well organized to take on.

I am much more profitable while harvesting, than I am while assassinating. Harvesting is less fun, but it is more profitable.

 

Yep, while ganking for me has been pretty profitable I do sometimes wonder if it would be better for me to whip out the skinning group again.

The Spirit Banking garbage going away will fix a lot of this though. 

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On 1/4/2019 at 10:29 AM, mandalore said:

They are at a great risk. 

 

On 1/4/2019 at 11:13 AM, YodaDoge said:

Sorry for my ignorance. But what exactly are they (the assasins) risking?  

In eve when trying to kill miners or explorers you always were at risk to lose your equipped vesell. In crowfall you only lose your inventory. Which normally is empty for people who are looking to gank 

 

On 1/4/2019 at 11:25 AM, mandalore said:

Gear breaks with use and death.  Eventually the spirit bank will leave testing.  No spirit bank means if they kill somebody and loot something they either have to walk around with it till they get to a localized bank or risk losing their haul.

The way I look at it (from a harvester's perspective) this pretty much summs it up:

  • The solo ganker risks time and durability, hoping to come home with loot.
  • The harvester risks time and durability, hoping to come home with loot.

The harvester starts with pots and tools, but if he had a successful run, those weren't coming home anyway. While crafting discs are cheap & easy, harvest pots are nearly free; water is the hardest part. Tools don't cost much more, but good ones do take passive trained skills. Everything you need for pots and tools (other than the crafting table & water) can be farmed in the safety of your faction temple.

No one is putting their ship on the line and perma death isn't a thing (some future campaigns may offer hardcore mode). The ganker's gear is probably better than the farmer's, but the farmer is putting tools & pots on the line. The biggest risk for both is their time. After a bit of scouting, the harvester knows where he'll be working and what he'll get from it(you do a survey run before you harvest, right?). A ganker needs to roam & may find nothing. When a ganker does find a target, he has no idea if that target has been out for an hour or 5 minutes. Both need to weigh when to go bank vs hanging a bit longer for the time efficiency.

Sometimes I loose my lunch. More often than not I get to a bank with harvested loot, so I don't think there's a problem.

Edited by VaMei

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On 1/1/2019 at 11:00 AM, BigJerk said:

On 1/1/2019 at 9:29 AM, blazzen said:

"First you crawl, then walk, then run.... then FLY!"

-J. Todd Coleman

I'm gonna keep jumping off walls, buildings, and cliffs and glide gently to the ground until it stops being fun. It might never stop being fun!

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On 01.01.2019 at 11:57 PM, ZYBAK said:

I honestly don't see that many Assassins. But there are a few that are very proficient and just feast on harvesters.

It's a flashy class and of course people are going to be drawn to the class called "Assassin"

If they dominated group fights then I'd definitely say they were OP but if anything they're a liability in larger fights. The Tank Champ and Tank Confessor dominate small scale and large scale fights and are ACTUALLY overpowered. Assassin is just the king of it's niche....killing solo harvesters.

if you get out of stealth and try to do some gathering solo they will find you much often :D

pitfighter and mana shield plate confessors should be nerfed also

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