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Capture Points - Official discussion thread

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Posted (edited)

I don't care one way or the other if skills, vessels, and items are wiped. But I can see it being a bit lame starting at 0 skill and just doing a noob campaign. Can you allocate everyone some amount of training to start with or up the training speed. Make us deal with the logistics of harvest/craft vs capturing the map.

Really digging the changes to capture point value amounts.

Here is my biggest gripe with the current system. It is terribly un-fun. The way it is set up currently, the most efficient route to victory is not to fight the other side but to just have the 3 factions running in a circle behind each other recapping the fort that they just took. It's like a dog chasing its tail.

Outposts - Take way to long to capture solo. I would suggest something like 2-3 minutes to full cap it regardless of number of people there. Have outposts send out a call for help in the zone they are in. A toggle we can turn on that shows all outposts under attack on our compass. With a 2-3 minute cap time this give people the chance to actually fight at these nodes, or at least get closer to the people capping them.

Forts - This is where the dog chasing it's tail really shines. I want forts to be more like mines were in Shadowbane but with a faster turn around time. I would make it so that a fort can not be recapped for either 1, 2 or 3 hours, chosen randomly. This would be plainly listed on the map. Give the fort a 15-30 minute period where the throne can be claimed by the other sides. Get rid of having people stand in the center to cap and bring back the long channel to claim like we had on dragon statues. If the opposing factions do not claim the fort with-in that 30-60 minute period the defenders keep it for the next 1, 2 or 3 hours.

These changes to outposts and forts would make me actually want to do them and organize for them with my guild.

I know I would get PvP if I was doing outposts. I'm guaranteed to find someone looking for PvP or have someone find me when I'm looking for PvP. Yay! PvP.

The changes to the forts would make it so that there was almost always going to be organized GvG PvP on the hour and adds a layer of strategy to the game. Do we defend our fort(s) or claim another? Right now claiming forts is just 3 factions each running up to a different fort, standing in the center uncontested while alt-tabbed, rotate clockwise. Make this style of play not the most effective of getting points. Make the entire playerbase's option only to either defend or attack a combination of only about 5 forts each hour, instead of attack or defend a combination of 20 forts 24/7. Funnel us towards each other, not spread us out.

Keeps - I'd Say these are mostly fine the way they are. 3 that all are active at the same time once per day. Only thing I would do is rotate the times each day so that PST and EST all get a shot at prime time keeps throughout the week.

 

I'd engage in all of these activities even if my side was losing horribly. PvP is still PvP.

Edited by Yoink

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Posted (edited)

I would very much prefer a spirit bank/character wipe for when the sanctioned campaign comes.

As others have previous stated, there are just some guilds who do not know yet how to make vessel, where others already have Blue/Epic vessels running around, that is a huge difference in stats, and would suck for a big part of the new players.

Also, I know passive training has come quite far now, but I know we have a decent amount in the guild(and outside of the guild) , who are behind due to vacation time (going home to families in christmas, traveling for new years etc.), and these people currently do not have a way to catch up to those who trained from minute one.

Which is why I would say wipe everything.

 

This would also make it so, people have no excuses when the campaign ends, and they lose :lol:

 

Edit:

What you could do, is have everyone start with full trained basic trees in the skills, just to move it a bit further along.

Edited by Yumx

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, YouTubejasonwivart said:

wipe everything for the 1st sanctioned CW!

All this, and I agree with @mandalore too - start at lv. 1 

 

Anyway u need to balance necromany or removed it from the game @jtoddcoleman soft cap at 350 ability score is silly - especially so few tested legendary weapon stats etc.

Edited by mythx

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Here are some ideas and feedback as a non game designer.

-Give points for PvP kills in certain zones near the end of the campaign.  I'm looking at Heroes of the Storm comeback mechanics - the losing team gets more XP per hero kill the farther behind they are.  I understand this can be exploited but maybe you can find something that makes sense.  I haven't played overwatch but I think they may have something there too to check out.  The late game POI capture multiplier is probably along the same lines.

-Maybe have the campaign start with the factions middle zone completely capped and the connected zones half capped for each connected faction.  Having the factions pick points in a circle is probably not a viable option like in the board game Risk.  This could have consequences on early small scale fights though so IDK.  Those are fun at times.

-I was going to say allow us to hand in harvested resources for  campaign points but instead I think long term we'd be able to reinforce POIs in some fashion.  If not then let the factions behind earn additional points for the hand in?  This is not PvP, just an idea for consideration.

Feedback:

-I think the nurf on advanced gear is going to be a good change long term.  We're rolling in white materials at this point and may have a bit less of a need for healers.

-Probably obvious but need to work through issues so we have fair starting points on the next campaign.  Bugs and performance in combat, certain hardware running the game better than others, random issues with logging in or out, relogging a few times because your crow won't res when in range of grave, chat breaking, taking advantage of recalling or having alts logged out in certain locations, spying with multiple accounts.  Alts and multiple accounts fine but some people have less issues than others and that inconsistency is not fair or fun.

Overall, I hope this game isn't rushed out.  If we run into issues in the first sanctioned campaign, the losing factions are not going to be happy with the developers.  You may consider just giving all of us the reward for participating.  I am competitive and can accept a loss but the game is still in pre alpha with a lot of issues.  We've worked through them as players as best as we can so I think a lot of us shrug off some of the glare.

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Love all the changes, especially the ones allowing underdogs to catch up in later seasons, or for guilds to focus on gearing up in spring and not being too far behind because of it.

As for the question of wiping, don't wipe anything but don't allow the importing of vessels. Vessels are the biggest power gap right now. I'm even for wiping passive skills, but I can see valid reasons not to until soft launch (or at least 6.0). But being able to import vessels immediately means that you can't compete if you aren't in one of the few major guilds. My guild is just starting to get into vessel upgrades and I can already see the huge power gap it creates. Smaller guilds need more than a few weeks to get into the vessel game, and solo players need until the economy supports buying vessels.

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due to crafted vessels beeing rly powerful i suggest no import from spiritbank and you need to create a new character.

not sure if its possible but id suggest the easiest way to do so is wipe characters for new campaign and disable the spiritbank as a whole because most ppl will just pull their high tier resources they farmed the last few campaigns out and make a new vessel and gear.

would also encourage farming resources and ganking harvesters/roaming pvp again and making using local bank more worth it (the need of transport and bank management).

 

wiping passive skills tree? im not sure but wouldnt care much.

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4 hours ago, Yoink said:

Outposts - Take way to long to capture solo. I would suggest something like 2-3 minutes to full cap it regardless of number of people there. Have outposts send out a call for help in the zone they are in. A toggle we can turn on that shows all outposts under attack on our compass. With a 2-3 minute cap time this give people the chance to actually fight at these nodes, or at least get closer to the people capping them.

I agree on this point that outposts should have a similar "on fire" symbol whenever it is being capped (similar to Forts/Keeps).

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Yumx said:

Which is why I would say wipe everything.

This would also make it so, people have no excuses when the campaign ends, and they lose :lol:

Agreed. wipe everything!
 

I also think night capping and circle capping are one of the biggest issue right now. 

It just doesnt make any sense that 3 people can undo the work of 100 people just over night. 
Maybe scale the points objective give with the online player amount? (just an idea) 

And the circle capping solely because it is a boring mechanic.
 

Edited by YodaDoge

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Wiping : 

From my point of view i would say wipe spirit banks/characters but keep the training. Why? So you can test how a new player experience will be in joining a new campaign, i'm not that sure the points in skills training (health, crit chance etc...) are so huge between a veteran and a new player, the only huge gap for me is in the harvesting/crafting stuff.

If you are not wiping the skills system, new players coming will be able to have access to vendors/stuff veteran players will put in the Free city.

If you wipe them, then the free city is useless since nobody will have the training required to make decent stuff before weeks/month.

A lot of new players are calling on the general how to get stuff, so it's a good thing, again from my point of view, to let the skill train go on the sanctioned campaign to have a good overview of the economy ingame.

But if needed then wipe everything.

Points/Capture mechanics :

It seems that you have the right ideas to avoid the "Uncle bob" thingies, i'm not a game designer so i'll let that to the specialist.

My only concerns actually about the points/capture things are : 

  1. Forts are too easily capturable : A player alone with scarecrow can take a fort, even more if he's one of the FOTM promotion class (pitfighter, plate confessor, paladin)
  2. Some powers/glitches are abused to bypass the walls (blinks, teleport etc..) who add a sense of useless in building those walls. I'll suggest to put debuffs in the zone of the fort/keep, kinda the same way Towers worked in Shadowbane, it should be dangerous to go into a fort/keep, not just a walk in the park like it's actually
  3. Buffs/variance guards : as actually they are all ranger = scarecrow. Ever make them immune to this discipline or get some variances in guards, we had some of those variance in previous builds, make guards great again! (but not too much like OS guards we experienced before)
  4. Make it more easy to build defense when you own a fort, for example actually it's quite hard to find ressources to build those walls, it end with forts being abandonned with no walls because people don't care about it (add even more to the feel of cycle capture)
  5. Night caping : maybe make opening window to forts capture to avoid the night caping teams? Not sure about this one because it's not really fair for those who haven't the same hours of everyone else.
  6. More alerts we don't know what happen until it's too late as @Soulreaver stated, we need to be advertised more faster when a fort is being under attack, because actually we are only alerted when they are already caping it. Make it when walls are damaged, guards hits or such

 

Some Faction wide chat tab would add some more dimensions in planning attack/defenses and could eventually help bring a sentiment in wanting to participate (instead of only some groups of organized players yet) i've seen for examples some dudes asking for group in pvp in the zone chat of the temple.

After all, i enjoyed those 2 weeks of campaigns testing, i personnaly like when the time for defending the keep is coming and everyone gather to the zone to be part of it, it's great time and it's nice to see those big fights talking place (despite the issues around it but hey ! It's pre-alpha)

We have a full month of January to test your tweakings so let's go !

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Posted (edited)

Would like seeing a kill muiltipliers too so loose side gets bonus points per kill on other players ahead of them, also players with more score should yield more points per kill aswell.

Archers need to spawn with random dmg types so piercing/crushing/slashing/fire/ice and so on like ranger quivers have. So scarecrow is less effective it basicly allows for single caps.
Should allow guards to be upgraded via gold too to add gold sink for players and add more guards to the outer walls of keeps and forts aswell please.

Need to add a territory system where u can only capture points adjacent to ones you own, back capping or running to fort to fort is kinda tedious and boring no one realy know where ur attacking till it too late so you dont even realy get a fight, unless u let a team cap all and u defend the last one cause u know there going there next.

Edited by veeshan

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From a non veteran (started less than week ago), i feel like stuffs / vessels and SB should be wiped out for the 1st sanctionned saison. However, skill points should be saved.

I believe that in the other following campaigns, stuffs are going to be wiped (what the point of doing a non permanent world if people are starting a new campaign full geared ?). 

For me, the game is based on knowledge, and team working. People who learned about crafting, vessels and gathering spots have already a huge advantage over the other people, and thats right for me. But, no need to snowball those advantages more : isnt the most fun for that kind of games to start from crash, and to build up everthing faster than your opponent to get victory ? 

In the other hand, skill points are going to be permanent at some point : so, thats the point of wipping it ? Its just gonna frustate older players, which put effort and time in it, and not give much to newer players. In any ways, verterans are going to smash new players. 

 

Thanks for reading this, i hope this make some sense to you ! 

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Posted (edited)

For testing purposes I'd rather see skills being wiped with campaign starts, no imports and every account given the same amount of starting skillpoints. Those could be enough to fill most of a basic tree or enough to completely reach the end of one specialization.

That would allow people to test different specs every campaign and groups of people/guilds to see how their planned distribution of specializations plays out over the campaign.

Edited by Koerpermilch

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Me personally, I'm up for just about anything; wipe it all, wipe nothing - I'll adapt and overcome.

The discussion does bring up an interesting design element though... I was under the belief that Crowfall's 'mechanical' skill limitations were going to be super shallow to allow for the player's skill (or lack thereof) to be the prominent decider in a fight. But what I'm hearing is that it's really all about getting a blue+ vessel and a couple of months in the skill trees as that's an insurmountable mechanical advantage given the numerical disparity they grant.

At least, that's what it looks like based on this discussion.

If that's the case, I'm going to vote for wiping everything early and often to promote the player over the system.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Koerpermilch said:

For testing purposes I'd rather see skills being wiped with campaign starts...

How do we test skills and their effect on gameplay, if we don't ever acquire them? Even at the current triple speed, it takes many weeks to reach the end of a skill tree.

This is testing. Allow the game to run as closely as possible to the way it's intended to be run, so we can break it now.

Edited by VaMei

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